Please make me a moderator so I can be a master debater

[damiac]

I would like to be made a moderator so I can always win internet arguments by locking the thread after I make my excellent points.

Also, I'm making a new crawl branch called "Moderator mode" where you can lock monster's threads to stop them from hitting you with inconvenient arguments like rocks to the head or banishment to the abyss.

if i type with bad spelling and grammer is that better because i think sometimes people prefer to read stuff typed like this because the mods dont lock those topics so i guess this is a better way to type right by the way im crowdfunding this please send me a pm to let me know you want to give me money and ill give you a place to send the money so we can make this awsome new branch together but dont really i dont want your money to get in the way of my artistic integrity except if its a lot of money

[Greyr]

I would like to be made a moderator so I can always win internet arguments by locking the thread after I make my excellent points.

Also, I'm making a new crawl branch called "Moderator mode" where you can lock monster's threads to stop them from hitting you with inconvenient arguments like rocks to the head or banishment to the abyss.

if i type with bad spelling and grammer is that better because i think sometimes people prefer to read stuff typed like this because the mods dont lock those topics so i guess this is a better way to type right by the way im crowdfunding this please send me a pm to let me know you want to give me money and ill give you a place to send the money so we can make this awsome new branch together but dont really i dont want your money to get in the way of my artistic integrity except if its a lot of money

Serious discussion only please.

ftfy

Also, not naming names here, but a certain mod needs to stop locking topics when they don't agree (while getting the last word in).

[and into]

Okay, but creating this thread really isn't a good way to get your point across.

if i type with bad spelling and grammer is that better because i think sometimes people prefer to read stuff typed like this because the mods dont lock those topics so i guess this is a better way to type right by the way im crowdfunding this please send me a pm to let me know you want to give me money and ill give you a place to send the money so we can make this awsome new branch together but dont really i dont want your money to get in the way of my artistic integrity except if its a lot of money

Well, I don't think it was because of the bad grammar/spelling, but this part of your post did actually make me chuckle.

[damiac]

Well this was the explanation given to me:

Your and Berder's posts--especially yours--often don't show good reasoning, so they get called out a lot by mods, devs, and regular posters alike. If you care about a topic at all, you should focus on that topic instead of turning threads into bouts of complaining that people disagree with you. Otherwise that thread will eventually get locked regardless of what forum it's in. Berder's other post got locked after he was reported for bad behaviour.

There are no real parting shots in a forum where can just make a new thread, but if you don't want to get threads locked, your best bet when responding to criticism is only address things relevant to the topic and stop responding to a person if you don't think it will further the topic. Especially if the people you're responding to are moderators.

(I bolded that part of the quote)

So basically: Don't disagree with moderators, or we'll lock the topic, and insult you in the final post.
The especially frustrating thing is that in this case, gammafunk was the one making nonsense statements about only liking posts from people with high thank counts, and that 'the op needs to learn not to do frustrating things for little benefit'.

On top of that, it was a CYC topic! With no reports, but gamma didn't like the idea apparently. This wasn't a big argument like the previous thread that got locked.

And if you're not supposed to make CYC threads making fun of stuff that happens in other threads, then half the CYC threads should be locked.

[and into]

And if you're not supposed to make CYC threads making fun of stuff that happens in other threads, then half the CYC threads should be locked.

Making satirical or somewhat mocking CYC threads may or may not be okay, it depends. CYC is the hardest forum to moderate, by far, because you don't want to be too heavy handed, but serious and good discussions that would not fit elsewhere do occur in CYC and deserve not to be derailed.

I don't really mind your posting this thread (but that's my own personal take, there are other mods obviously). I'm just saying that this thread is not a great way to get people to consider changes in mod policy, or anything along those lines. It is not going to get people to take any grievance more seriously. If the point of posting this thread was just to have some fun thumbing your nose at authority a bit, that's one thing, but in that case the discussion shouldn't be too serious. And your most recent post seems to be (in earnest) crying foul.

If you are legitimately upset at how this was handled, try to hash it out with gamma over PM or, failing that, ask other mods (over PM) to look at what happened. Dragging too much of this into CYC can come off as attention/drama seeking, even if that's not the intent.

Now, what gamma actually said is really not the same as saying, "you cannot disagree with moderators."

if you don't want to get threads locked, your best bet when responding to criticism is only address things relevant to the topic and stop responding to a person if you don't think it will further the topic. Especially if the people you're responding to are moderators.

"Further[ing] the topic" does not mean "agreeing with what the person said." It is a question of how one argues and expresses that disagreement. If you end up taking it personally and responding in kind, it will probably mess the tread up, possibly it will end up locked (if others also start crap-postin'). If you respond poorly to a mod, then it is more likely to happen (just realistically). Not because we are power-hungry tyrants, but for basically the same reason that one would give you the advice, "You shouldn't sucker-punch anyone, but you really shouldn't sucker-punch a police officer." I expect you don't think that you handled the situation badly or did anything wrong, that's not the point I'm arguing here. I'm just saying that I don't think gamma was saying what you seem to think he was saying.

Also it is good form to be careful about posting stuff from a PM (in general, but, yes, especially from a moderator).

[basil]

Very petty. Still boring.

The thread lock was sort of lame, though.

[damiac]

Well, gamma seems to have shown that he's willing to lock threads he doesn't like. So yeah, I'm seeking that attention be paid to that, and it be dealt with. I posted his message back to me because he said in the part I bolded essentially "Don't disagree with me or I'll lock the thread". Gamma's showing an obvious dislike for Berder, he continuously asserted Berder doesn't know how to play crawl properly, and so his complaint was invalid. If he can't be at least a tiny bit impartial, he shouldn't have mod powers. I know it's easier to just go with the flow, but I would rather speak up when someone's being treated unfairly. On top of that, the topic itself was WAY better than most CYC topics, and most people seem to agree that allies are annoying to deal with.

[Greyr]

Yeah that was really lame on Gammas part. Locking should be reserved for hate speech and general unsavoriness, not because you find something unproductive and/or disagree.

[mikee]

Hello, folks, I'm going to present some lectures on topics that I have such a poor understanding of that the flaws in my reasoning will be obvious and unambiguous to experts on those topics. If any of those individuals take the time to respond to my points, it will probably become clear why my understanding remains poor to this date: I mostly ignore information that conflicts with the ideas I already have. Unlike somebody whose intention is to arrive at the truth or to help others to do so, generally I'm just looking for positive reinforcement. The benefits of positive feedback, for me, outweigh any harm my ideas could cause people who actually believe and apply my ideas. That is also why, contrary to what you might expect, I don't actually put a lot of effort into forming the ideas I've arrived at; instead, most of my effort goes into obtaining the feedback that I desire. I have no shame, which is also why I am not relieved when a stop is put to truly awful threads with my name on them.

[twelwe]

Hello, folks, I'm going to present some lectures on topics that I have such a poor understanding of that the flaws in my reasoning will be obvious and unambiguous to experts on those topics. If any of those individuals take the time to respond to my points, it will probably become clear why my understanding remains poor to this date: I mostly ignore information that conflicts with the ideas I already have. Unlike somebody whose intention is to arrive at the truth or to help others to do so, generally I'm just looking for positive reinforcement. The benefits of positive feedback, for me, outweigh any harm my ideas could cause people who actually believe and apply my ideas. That is also why, contrary to what you might expect, I don't actually put a lot of effort into forming the ideas I've arrived at; instead, most of my effort goes into obtaining the feedback that I desire. I have no shame, which is also why I am not relieved when a stop is put to truly awful threads with my name on them.

too short; didn`t read. you need to write this longer before i will take it seriously

[Lyrick]

Sometimes, we peons like to think we are intelligent.

Sometimes, we need to realize that we are wrong.

In these times, the mods descend from their lofty places in the heavens to show us the error in our ways.

Except unlike angels, mods exist because whoever runs this forum thought it'd be a good idea to make them mods.

They've seen all the tavern and their regulars have to offer, and are more knowledgeable about the game than almost all of us with gray names.

If you choose to disregard them, remember who had the grace to let you keep posting here in spite of that.

Gamma could have stopped short of the insult, but Berder needs to cool his head too.

[nicolae]

frankly if you're not willing to run the forum like it's a goddamn sci fi dystopia you shouldn't be moderator

[gammafunk]

Man, I was composing a response when my computer crashed, which
made me sad, but then I got to read a few choice follow-up posts,
so it's a net-positive.

Anyhow, and into summarized things pretty well, and to be clear I
never made any blanket accusations that anyone in particular
is "bad at crawl" nor do I simply lock threads because I don't
like them or disagree with the poster. It's just that little is
lost if a mod locks a CYC thread were personal accusations (as in
the case of that thread) or insults (as in the case of the
previous locked thread) start flying over any discussion of the
specifics of the original topic. These things lead to threads
getting reported and locked.

If you care about the thread, just focus on the topic or related
subtopics over accusing and/or insulting people. In that spirit I
will be less frank in expressing my assessment of previous posts
when I do lock a thread. And yeah posting a PM response of anyone
without asking them is a good way of never getting a PM response
from that person again.

I personally am ok with joke threads in CYC if they're not
obviously offensive or some kind of personal vendetta.

[damiac]

What was the personal accusation in that thread? It was you who started out with a totally rude tone out of the gate.

[nicolae]

Man, I was composing a response when my computer crashed, which
made me sad, but then I got to read a few choice follow-up posts,
so it's a net-positive.

Anyhow, and into summarized things pretty well, and to be clear I
never made any blanket accusations that anyone in particular
is "bad at crawl" nor do I simply lock threads because I don't
like them or disagree with the poster. It's just that little is
lost if a mod locks a CYC thread were personal accusations (as in
the case of that thread) or insults (as in the case of the
previous locked thread) start flying over any discussion of the
specifics of the original topic. These things lead to threads
getting reported and locked.

If you care about the thread, just focus on the topic or related
subtopics over accusing and/or insulting people. In that spirit I
will be less frank in expressing my assessment of previous posts
when I do lock a thread. And yeah posting a PM response of anyone
without asking them is a good way of never getting a PM response
from that person again.

I personally am ok with joke threads in CYC if they're not
obviously offensive or some kind of personal vendetta.

The line breaks in this post made me think the first letters of each line spelled something out and I was disappointed that they did not.

[damiac]

Hello, folks, I'm going to present some lectures on topics that I have such a poor understanding of that the flaws in my reasoning will be obvious and unambiguous to experts on those topics. If any of those individuals take the time to respond to my points, it will probably become clear why my understanding remains poor to this date: I mostly ignore information that conflicts with the ideas I already have. Unlike somebody whose intention is to arrive at the truth or to help others to do so, generally I'm just looking for positive reinforcement. The benefits of positive feedback, for me, outweigh any harm my ideas could cause people who actually believe and apply my ideas. That is also why, contrary to what you might expect, I don't actually put a lot of effort into forming the ideas I've arrived at; instead, most of my effort goes into obtaining the feedback that I desire. I have no shame, which is also why I am not relieved when a stop is put to truly awful threads with my name on them.

Yeah, that's probably why you tend to just agree with the most popular posters, so you can keep getting that positive feedback. I agree, you do show a general rejection of ideas that conflict with your current beliefs. It's a good thing you never call people out in threads for acting in a way you disagree with, that would be wrong.

Now please, show me some harmful ideas of mine. I never intended to cause harm, and I never suggest anything out of the ordinary in advice threads, I'm very conservative with giving newer players advice. Also, show me some of this wonderful positive feedback I'm obviously hunting for with my wildly popular but harmful ideas.

I especially like the 'no shame' part. That's not an insult at all, no way. But good thing you don't just jump on the bandwagon to sate your ego and get that positive feedback.

[Arrhythmia]

I never intended to cause harm

The distance between the motive towards an end and the end actually reached is an interesting point which I feel you should meditate on. Namaste.

[mikee]

You know what's kind of ironic if you think about general accusations of groupthink and whatnot is that for most games, what becomes the 'meta' is established by exactly the people who have questioned the status quo the most. So no, people like that are not often agreeing with each other and disagreeing with new ideas because they are close-minded. If you see me often agree with ~~the popular kids~~ (I feel terrible writing that even with the tildes) it's because they didn't say anything obviously wrong that I could disagree with. The act of challenging an existing idea isn't enough to actually make an idea good - it has to also be good on its own merit, which isn't as easy as it may seem. Again, ironically, you're not going to be able to do that by slapping on archetypes from the metagames of other RPGs. Way to rebel against conformity.

Also, show me some of this wonderful positive feedback I'm obviously hunting for with my wildly popular but harmful ideas.

Have you noticed what proportion of your posts are about other people's feedback? It seems like it's most of them, whereas most people probably don't even think about it; they just write what they have to say and then move on.

[damiac]

I continued a conversation that hadn't reached a real conclusion due to it being shut down by a mod. The conversation had interesting points that went against popular ideas that are usually seen, so it was worth continuing to see where it went. The thread I created had a few people making good points, and it was interesting at least to those who participated in it. I don't see what's so upsetting about that. Who cares if you thought the ideas presented were good or not? You didn't have to participate, just like any number of other CYC threads that only a couple of people are interested in.

I never said anything about 'the cool kids', but it is much easier to win an argument against a strawman, since you get to make up both sides of the argument.

A mod declaring himself the winner of arguments then closing the thread really rubs me the wrong way, but I guess it's not as bad as someone discussing ideas you disagree with.

Hello, folks, I'm going to present some lectures on topics that I have such a poor understanding of that the flaws in my reasoning will be obvious and unambiguous to experts on those topics.

No, you're not one of the 'cool kids', but you and some other people selected by scientific criteria are experts, and if one or two of those experts disagree, then they must of course be right. I get it. What makes someone an expert, by the way?

[Arrhythmia]

What makes someone an expert, by the way?

mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

[Hirsch I]

Please make me a moderator so I can have a pretty green name, and work on being the nicest person in this forum.
thanks in advance.
hugs.
here is my photo to show I'm nice.

[Sandman25]

What makes someone an expert, by the way?

mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

This is wrong unfortunately. It's possible to win crawl (and even have high win percentage) when playing badly.

[xentronium]

What makes someone an expert, by the way?

mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

This is wrong unfortunately. It's possible to win crawl (and even have high win percentage) when playing badly.

Being an expert and playing badly are totally compatible, no? But we can say that this is a guy who's seen it all.
He is certainly an expert at having a high win percentage over very many games and with a variety of classes and races.

[Aule]

Everyone is an ex-spurt.

[Lasty]

I never said anything about 'the cool kids', but it is much easier to win an argument against a strawman, since you get to make up both sides of the argument.

It's a fair request that everyone participating in a conversation take the time to understand the points being made by the other posters, particularly if they're going to disagree with that person or present a characterization of those quotes. In this case I'm not sure mikee's characterization is far off -- obviously you didn't say the phrase cool kids, but you have repeatedly made the case that there's a group of veteran posters, however you choose to characterize them, who get a fair amount of respect and thanks, and who tend to have similar ideas about the game. mikee characterizing your identification of this group as "cool kids" is mapping your complaints about how this group (or clique, if you will) is deferred to onto the genre of high school social order, but it isn't radically deforming the concept.

he said in the part I bolded essentially "Don't disagree with me or I'll lock the thread"

gammafunk was the one making nonsense statements about only liking posts from people with high thank counts,

Of course, if one lives in a glass house, one should also avoid throwing stones. This isn't the first time I've seen you cry foul that others are putting words in your mouth, nor the first time I've seen you happily put words in the mouth of another poster. You may not like what gammafunk did or said, but it's not at all reasonable to characterize his points as being what you claim above.

[Bloax]

What makes someone an expert, by the way?

mikee_ has won 166 times in 396 games (41.92%): 4xDSFi 4xMDFi 3xDDCK 3xDDEE 3xHOPr 2xDDHe 2xDDNe 2xDSBe 2xKeAE 2xMfCr 2xMfSt 2xMiAr 2xMiBe 2xNaTm 1xCeAr 1xCeAs 1xCeBe 1xCeEn 1xCeFE 1xCePa 1xCeTm 1xCeWz 1xDDAs 1xDDCr 1xDDHu 1xDDTm 1xDENe 1xDEWz

This is wrong unfortunately. It's possible to win crawl (and even have high win percentage) when playing badly.

It's also possible to barely win at all and still be very good at the game. (fortunately only the people who actually see you play will believe that you're actually good in that case :^])

[XuaXua]

TL;DR

Man, you are wrong and I'm so locking this thread.

cform.jpg (7.6 KiB) Viewed 7591 times

[Sandman25]

Being an expert and playing badly are totally compatible, no? But we can say that this is a guy who's seen it all.
He is certainly an expert at having a high win percentage over very many games and with a variety of classes and races.

I am not talking about any specific players, it's just a general observation. Some players have 90 wins, other players have 160 wins, it does not mean that the latter plays better or is more expert. Also it does not mean the latter is always right and the former is always wrong when they have different opinions about something.

[Sandman25]

It's also possible to barely win at all and still be very good at the game. (fortunately only the people who actually see you play will believe that you're actually good in that case :^])

Do you mean playing MiFE as typical FE of Vehumet here?

[DDDD]

@all:

You really made my day. How could one better summarize than with this thread my conviction that this whole forum is the single most rude, insulting, off-topic, arrogant, newbie-unfriendly place on the net.

(Sorry, after being insulted here for years, I really had to speak my mind aloud. My apologies to the folks who really write productive posts in this place - I admire your endurance.)

[duvessa]

Sorry, after being insulted here for years, I really had to speak my mind aloud.

Joined: Wednesday, 21st January 2015, 10:45

[cerebovssquire]

I know not whether Laws be right,
Or whether Laws be wrong;
All that we know who lie in gaol
Is that the wall is strong;
And that each day is like a year,
A year whose days are long.

[and into]

You really made my day. How could one better summarize than with this thread my conviction that this whole forum is the single most rude, insulting, off-topic, arrogant, newbie-unfriendly place on the net.

Sucks that you haven't enjoyed your time at the Tavern, but as far as "newbie-unfriendly" goes, there are numerous active threads right now in which very new posters got, or are getting, good advice:

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14915
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14898
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14819
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14916
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14892
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14921
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14908
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14870
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14881

GDD is potentially more adversarial, but this is basically spelled out in the stickied "YOU MUST READ THIS BEFORE POSTING IN GDD" thread. And CYC can be adversarial, friendly, goofy, or none of the above, depending on the thread.