Comsmological Politics and Godly Rivalries

[mechanicalmaniac]

The good gods are, to my knowledge, the only gods that react differently when you convert from them depending on the god to which you are converting. I have always liked the bit of flavor that the good gods are all buddies. So I was thinking, why don't other gods do that? There are a lot of gods with similar domains. I think making a network of relationships between the gods would make for a more interesting religion system as a whole, with thematically and/or mechanically similar gods being allied in the same way the good gods are now, and with particularly fierce wrath upon conversion to certain other gods.

Here's some of my ideas:
Sif: allied with Vehu, Ash, Chei; enemies with Trog.
Vehu: allied with Sif, Makhleb, Kikubasdfjkl; enemies with Trog and Eliv.
Ash: allied with Sif, Chei, Wulndraste, and maybe Ru; enemies with.... I'm not sure?
Fedhas: allied with Eliv. Enemies with Kikubasdfjkl.

[Siegurt]

Actually I've often thought gods should have enemies (Although probably not allies, the good goods IMHO should stay allies) in particular, I feel like there's one god each god should really hate above all others:


TSO <-> Mak
Evy <-> Beogh
Zin <-> Xom
Trog <-> Sif
Dith <-> Ash
Fedhas <-> Yred
Chei <-> Lucy
Oka <-> Kiku
Ru <-> Goz
Nem <-> Veh
Qaz <-> Jiyv, (Although I think rivalry with the slime god is a bit weird.)

[mechanicalmaniac]

Some of those makes sense, (I especially like Ru <-> Goz,) but a lot of them don't -- Dith <-> Ash makes no sense at all. TSO <-> Dith would make more sense; since the former is the god of light and the latter is a god of darkness.

[nilsbloodaxe]

Not that I think this is a good idea, and it may not be a good GDD thread, but clearly, Dith <-> Qaz.

[Siegurt]

I had enlightenment vs obfuscation in my head for dith v ash, and tso v mak because Angels v devils, plus mak is 'evil' and tso is 'good'

Obviously some don't make much sense, but i would pick out e.x. oka v kiku or nem v veh as the least logical

And no this isn't really gdd at all

[XuaXua]

I posted something a while back about how Ely and Nemelex would redistribute all the item sacrifices they receive back to all the item-bequeathing dieties. Like a divine clearing house.

[tasonir]

I have a hard time picturing Chei hating anyone. Chei is kind of like the Dude in this respect, they realize that time is infinite and one should simply abide. Above all else, take it easy.

I mostly play crawl as an exercise in relaxation. Chei doesn't "hate" haste - Chei reminds you it isn't worth the stress of trying to do things quickly; don't trade your own serenity and mental well-being for a burst of unnecessary power.

[duvessa]

I have a hard time picturing Chei hating anyone. Chei is kind of like the Dude in this respect, they realize that time is infinite and one should simply abide. Above all else, take it easy.

I mostly play crawl as an exercise in relaxation. Chei doesn't "hate" haste - Chei reminds you it isn't worth the stress of trying to do things quickly; don't trade your own serenity and mental well-being for a burst of unnecessary power.

  Code:

// Cheibriados hates fast monsters.

  Code:

static bool _god_hates_brand(const int brand)
...
if (you_worship(GOD_CHEIBRIADOS) && brand == SPWPN_CHAOS)
    return true;

  Code:

bool god_hates_spell(spell_type spell, god_type god, bool rod_spell)
...
case GOD_CHEIBRIADOS:
    if (is_hasty_spell(spell))
        return true;

  Code:

bool god_hates_ability(ability_type ability, god_type god)
...
case ABIL_EVOKE_BERSERK:
    return god == GOD_CHEIBRIADOS;

  Code:

conduct_type god_hates_item_handling(const item_def &item)
...
case GOD_CHEIBRIADOS:
    if (item_type_known(item) && (_is_potentially_hasty_item(item)
                                  || is_hasty_item(item))
        // Don't need item_type_known for quick blades.
        || item.is_type(OBJ_WEAPONS, WPN_QUICK_BLADE))
    {
        return DID_HASTY;
    }

[tasonir]

Source code clearly isn't canon - Ask any designer and they'll let you know such petty implementation details are beneath them. It's likely the coder just couldn't be bothered to do it properly, ie:

  Code:

static bool _god_hates_brand(const int brand)

Would contain the list of gods which actually hate various brands, while a second method:

  Code:

static bool _god_reminds_you_gently_that_this_brand_may_disrupt_your_mental_well_being_and_calm_serenity(const int brand)

would contain the line about Chei and chaos/speed brands. Then when coloring inventory (for example) you'd have to call both methods instead of just one, but that might allow you to do different coloring. For example, wands of hasting wouldn't have to be so violently red, they could be nice a pretty cyan or a tranquil green. Sure, it's messier for the coder to have to call both methods and not just one, so I understand why they'd take the shortcut. I just don't let it interfere with my enlightened understanding of time.

I may be taking this too far <.<

[jejorda2]

Here's some of my ideas:
Sif: allied with Vehu, Ash, Chei; enemies with Trog.
Vehu: allied with Sif, Makhleb, Kikubasdfjkl; enemies with Trog and Eliv.
Ash: allied with Sif, Chei, Wulndraste, and maybe Ru; enemies with.... I'm not sure?
Fedhas: allied with Eliv. Enemies with Kikubasdfjkl.

Does "allied" means that a set can be switched among with no loss of piety, or are there other possible meanings?

Leaving a god with no strong conduct (like Sif) should always have wrath or other meaningful penalty. Leaving Sif for Trog might be the only one that could make sense mechanically to allow.

Leaving Ash for Ru for no wrath seems like an easier sell that some of the others.

[Berder]

I don't see the purpose of having rivalries, when the default result of switching gods is to have the first god punish you. More allied gods would be interesting though.

Zin - TSO - Ely: holy
Sif - Veh: magic
Ash - Chei: hybrid characters
Kiku - Yred - Dith: death and darkness
Makhleb - Lugonu: demonic (considering the abyss is full of demons)
Fedhas - Jiyva: non-sentient
Xom - Jiyva: mutant
Qaz - Veh: elemental destruction
Beogh - Trog - Okawaru: physical combat
Xom - Nemelex: random effects
Ru - Ash: binding/restricting yourself

[jejorda2]

Maybe a rivalry could mean that a deity will never accept anyone who has ever worshipped a shunned god?

So perhaps, Jivya is so chaotic that it is impossible to switch from Jivya to TSO to Zin. Makhleb is so evil that one cannot switch from Makhleb to TSO, or from Makhleb to Ash to TSO.

But that just takes away options and limits decisions, which is not in the spirit of crawl. I think it is better to have the game allow any switches, but have the wrath penalty to pay.

[duvessa]

If you have sigils on your chest or body, you have been marked by your god and a good god will never accept you as a worshiper. This feature has not yet been implemented.

[Berder]

Switching gods is done so infrequently due to wrath, that options to restrict it more don't help gameplay. If more gods were allied then there would be more reason to switch which could make the game more interesting and add variety.

[tasonir]

I could possibly see myself being tempted to play sif if I could get a free switch into chei later on. The main drawback with that would be gaining sif piety is not kills based, so I'd have to actually train magic, when my end goal is more melee + support magic. But I'm sure there's play styles that could be invented with an easy switch between gods, even if it's mostly just to abuse getting gifts. Otherwise there isn't much point to not just going straight to god #2, outside of gods who really lose steam after 3 runes (Fehdas, Yred).

So something like a sif -> veh switch might be done, but there aren't too many gifting gods that have gifts worth the effort for. I bet some people would start trog and switch out if trog wouldn't smash their heads in. This is probably still inferior to just staying with Trog most 3 rune games, although abandoning trog (without wrath) for extended makes good sense.

[KoboldLord]

If you dump your girlfriend (or whatever, depending on your gender preference), she won't get less mad at you if you start going out with her sister or her best friend instead of that girl in the other class that she hates. She'd have to have a specific and unusual preference for polyamory from the start before it would be anything but absolutely insane for you to expect her to be okay with it.

A traditionally depicted fantasy deity is much more powerful and much more prone to anger and spite than any real-life significant other that you are likely to have.

[GlassGo]

If you dump your girlfriend (or whatever, depending on your gender preference), she won't get less mad at you if you start going out with her sister or her best friend instead of that girl in the other class that she hates.

I'm mostly agree with you, but this is not always the case. Sometimes she would get less mad. )

[JFunk]

Only good gods should be able to have alliances and nobly accept changes in followers. Evil and chaotic deities are willing to squabble with each other. That's why they aren't good gods. Sif Muna and Vehumet wouldn't be best buddies because they both dig magic. They aren't going to meetups for Magic-Loving Deities. If anything, they should feud even more than unrelated deities, since they have entirely different philosophies of magic. There's just no flavor advantage to providing more god-switching opportunities, just extra chances to cheeze the god system, while actually eliminating the part of god-switching that did provide flavor, namely wrath.

However, it could potentially be really cool if there were, say, special temple vaults themed for the different deities, that would react differently to the player depending on what deity they worshipped. A Trog temple could be packed with trolls and giants, and if they spot a worshipper of Sif or Veh, the whole temple berserks. A temple of Veh might be filled with deep elf casters that attack pretty much everyone except maybe other Veh worshippers, and so on. Something like that would introduce some more flavor of the gods and their interactions into the game world in a way that is interactive for the player.

[GlassGo]

Yeah, I was thinking about floors (maybe in Panda) filled with god's wrath, instead\with usual boring Panlords.
Something like floor where Trog wrath rages, constantly trowing at you packs of his beloved buddies.

[1010011010]

I don't like the idea of allies, I prefer thinking of the pantheon as a block of apartments and some gods have to share apartments. Some are decent parings but other are like the odd couple. It's all like a slice of life but with gods.
Like Saint Young Men.

[and into]

Moved to CYC, as this doesn't really fit in dungeon crawling advice. Do note that several folks in this thread want to discuss this at least semi-seriously, however, and respect that. Thank you! Carry on.

[mechanicalmaniac]

I don't see the purpose of having rivalries, when the default result of switching gods is to have the first god punish you. More allied gods would be interesting though.

Zin - TSO - Ely: holy
Sif - Veh: magic
Ash - Chei: hybrid characters
Kiku - Yred - Dith: death and darkness
Makhleb - Lugonu: demonic (considering the abyss is full of demons)
Fedhas - Jiyva: non-sentient
Xom - Jiyva: mutant
Qaz - Veh: elemental destruction
Beogh - Trog - Okawaru: physical combat
Xom - Nemelex: random effects
Ru - Ash: binding/restricting yourself

Lugonu - Xom - Jiyva: chaos

However, it could potentially be really cool if there were, say, special temple vaults themed for the different deities, that would react differently to the player depending on what deity they worshipped. A Trog temple could be packed with trolls and giants, and if they spot a worshipper of Sif or Veh, the whole temple berserks. A temple of Veh might be filled with deep elf casters that attack pretty much everyone except maybe other Veh worshippers, and so on. Something like that would introduce some more flavor of the gods and their interactions into the game world in a way that is interactive for the player.

This is a cool idea.

[SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon]

A traditionally depicted fantasy deity is ... much more prone to anger and spite than any real-life significant other that you are likely to have.

You see, gentlemen, behind every great man, there is a woman... urging him on. And so it was with my Stella. She urged me on into outer space. Uh, not that she meant to. But with her continual, eternal, confounded nagging, well, I think of her constantly. And every time I do, I go further out into space.

[tasonir]

A traditionally depicted fantasy deity is ... much more prone to anger and spite than any real-life significant other that you are likely to have.

You see, gentlemen, behind every great man, there is a woman... urging him on. And so it was with my Stella. She urged me on into outer space. Uh, not that she meant to. But with her continual, eternal, confounded nagging, well, I think of her constantly. And every time I do, I go further out into space.

Should anyone be wondering, this is star trek (the original series), the episode "I, Mudd". Man creates hundreds of androids to serve him without question and live the perfect life. Sadly, as is often the case in these kinds of stories, it doesn't end up going so well. Transcript here: http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/41.htm

[SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon]

Folks who can't handle a self-reference paradox are real suckers.
I love obscure references...

[Bloax]

the chei implementation is very much lacking in coolness

i mean seriously you get instant penance for hasting an enemy, wearing boots of speed is for no apparent reason forbidden (they have no effect) - draining your piety like mad for no reason at all - and quick blades are also banned because ???

that's not very fitting for the take-it-easy god of cool who is way chiller than all those hotheads in the pantheon who think they're the real shit

instead you should take a piety hit on hasting monsters (wtf r u doing), boots of speed should just not work ("You feel like going fast for a bit, but then the feeling subsides into taking it easier.") and quick blades should be OK

for more information see our LearnDB page, "Taking Proper Care of your Cheibriados" or call 1-420-CHEI

[damiac]

Come on, Chei is OP as is, you can't go making him even better.