The line between fighter and mage


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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 10:37

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Sandman25 wrote:1) use A mostly
2) use B mostly
3) use A and B


4)use neither A nor B.

Sandman25 wrote:Honestly I think every classification is useless in some sense, it does not add any new information

It actually removes information, In this fighter/Mage case it removes the entirety of a character dump into a one of 3 labels.

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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 11:00

Re: The line between fighter and mage

1010011010 wrote:4)use neither A nor B.
It actually removes information, In this fighter/Mage case it removes the entirety of a character dump into a one of 3 labels.


4 is impossible in this case. "B" was "magic", "A" was something like "non-magic buffs, melee, ranged". I guess pacification, evocation, invocations etc. is included in "A" too.
Ignoring some information can be useful, it's often used in physical models/laws. Helps to see forest for the trees.

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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 11:05

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Sar wrote:Well depending on a stage in the game you are currently now continuing pumping, say, Fighting and Armour and Dodging or whatever might not give you much due to diminishing returns, and getting something else might help. Or might not.


As "feeling weak" I mean I cannot kill some typical monster (not unique) and must escape. For mages it usually means I am running out of MP (solution: train spellcasting for MP or magic skills to increase damage per cast or make higher level spell castable), for fighters it usually means I get to "heavily wounded" status (solution: train heavier weapon to min delay, increase AC/HP/EV).

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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 13:34

Re: The line between fighter and mage

At this point I think there's a sufficient volume of good advice that it's no longer important to continue the conversation in order to ensure that lurkers don't get confused and take away an unnecessarily limiting concept from this thread.

Trying to argue further in an attempt to convince Berder isn't going to be productive -- he outright said that he feels free to make up data which in no way meaningfully supports his arbitrarily limiting schema but that his made-up data should be considered both accurate and as validating his schema until someone else does the work of disproving it -- so I suggest that if that's your remaining motivation for posting in the thread, you let it drop.

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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 15:27

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Classifying existing characters into 'fighter' 'mage' and 'fighter/mage' isn't very useful.
Knowing what someone means when they come and say 'I'm trying to make a mage character but I keep dying WTF' is somewhat useful.

Of course, everyone already knows to a degree what people mean when they say 'I'm making a fighter' (It means, mostly kill stuff with weapons, usually melee)
A 'mage' usually means conjurations heavy blaster.
A 'fighter mage' could mean a lot of things, are we talking about a skald? A warper?

The thing is, there are already backgrounds in the game which generally do a better job describing the characters anyway. But it is funny how people suddenly pretend to have no idea whatsoever what someone might mean when they say they're trying to play a mage, or a fighter.
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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 15:36

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Have we all forgotten about the elusive ~~stabber~~?
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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 16:14

Re: The line between fighter and mage

damiac wrote:there are already backgrounds in the game which generally do a better job describing the characters anyway

"Assassin"

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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 17:45

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Assassin means short blades, and stealth most likely. Obviously that background is one of the less clear ones, since you have to take it in some direction, it's not like a berserker or gladiator where you already get a direction to build your character in.

Still, assassin is clearer than 'fighter' or 'fighter-mage' or even 'stabber'. I will admit, the first time I started an assassin I was like 'Well how am I supposed to assassinate enemies? They just wake up when I try to sneak up on them'.
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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 18:47

Re: The line between fighter and mage

I think renaming "Enchanter" to "Stab-Mage" or even "Stabomancer" would make things clearer for the player.
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Post Thursday, 15th January 2015, 19:04

Re: The line between fighter and mage

I think renaming Fire Elementalist to Pyromancer would be more flavourful

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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 00:11

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Alright you villains, I went and got some stats myself. I looked at the logs for the last 20 won games.

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sharkman123 ... 220622.txt HOWz. Fighter with support magic - nothing spellpower dependent
http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ma ... 205859.txt MuNe. Fighter with support magic. They do have Dispel Undead and Vampiric Draining, but used DU zero times in xl25-27 and vamp draining is not for dangerous foes once you're a high xl.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/notid ... 203329.txt DEFE. Mage with firestorm.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Blomd ... 202709.txt. FoCK. Pure fighter.
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/v ... 193302.txt. HuIE. Mage with glaciate.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Mattybee/mo ... 171648.txt. DgIE. Mage - no melee at all.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Shadowmage9 ... 170841.txt. MiAs. Fighter with support magic.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Parti ... 165528.txt. FoSk. Fighter with support magic.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/DocEon/morg ... 164509.txt. HOGl. Pure fighter.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/kazak ... 153716.txt. HaFi. Fighter with support magic. Did have Cause Fear, but at a low spellpower and never actually cast it.
http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/ke ... 134425.txt. MfBe. Pure fighter of trog.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 125332.txt. HOFi. Pure fighter.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Meria ... 124322.txt. MiGl. Pure fighter. Total magic use: cast stoneskin 9 times.
http://crawl.xtahua.com/crawl/morgue/kr ... 113356.txt. GrBe. Pure fighter of trog.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Razawaza/mo ... 090816.txt. VpEn. Fighter-mage.
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 073055.txt. DESk. Mage with fire storm.
http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/ha ... 060732.txt. TrFi. Fighter with support magic. Did have iron shot, but cast it only 7 times.
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/moose/morgu ... 060239.txt. HuIE. Mage. Glaciate, no melee.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Kautz ... 043113.txt. HuFE. Mage with fire storm.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/keyma ... 042342.txt. GrGl. Mega-zigger with 4 zigs, which makes him a mage by the time he's mega-zigging. Was previously a pure fighter casting nothing until XL 25-27.

Only one fighter-mage, the VpEn. None of the "fighters with support magic" cast anything that does direct damage beyond animate dead - no summonings, for example. It was all charms/tloc/tmut.

Conclusion: fighter-mages are very uncommon. The great majority of characters - 95% in this sample - are firmly fighters or mages, not both. There is, as I predicted, a strong divide between melee and magic in crawl; the line is not much blurred.
Last edited by Berder on Friday, 16th January 2015, 00:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 00:34

Re: The line between fighter and mage

These "pure casters" are still using weapons quite a bit.

Dude, seriously. It's not that big of a deal. You are getting all worked up over labels that, in the end, mean nothing.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 00:43

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Greyr wrote:These "pure casters" are still using weapons quite a bit.

Which is completely irrelevant because they only use weapons on popcorn. Their best damage is coming from magic, which is the entire point.

Now that I'm fully vindicated by actual facts, I'm now willing to discuss what "use" these terms are. Here's one use: in a different thread some people were claiming it's possible to be a fighter-mage in plate, using it to claim that magic in plate is just as good as magic in light armor. No, it's possible to cast some support magic in plate, but you still have to deal your main damage with your weapon. The establishment of a distinction between fighter and mage here, and the facts backing up that distinction, clarify that point.

Here's another use: the division between fighters (and the kinds of spells fighters can get use out of) and mages is just a basic fact about the game. Knowing that fact, and not denying it, means accepting the truth.

Also, there's a huge tactical difference in gameplay between a fighter (with support magic) and a mage. Fighters use tabbing and melee tactics and don't care about MP, mages use a great variety of spells and watch MP like a hawk.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 01:26

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Labels are purely for cosmetic reasons. I agree with the majority that labeling a character does nothing useful. I train according to what I find in the dungeon, not because I feel I'm a fighter or a mage.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 01:30

The line between fighter and mage

Berder wrote:
Greyr wrote:These "pure casters" are still using weapons quite a bit.

Which is completely irrelevant because they only use weapons on popcorn. Their best damage is coming from magic, which is the entire point.

Now that I'm fully vindicated by actual facts, I'm now willing to discuss what "use" these terms are. Here's one use: in a different thread some people were claiming it's possible to be a fighter-mage in plate, using it to claim that magic in plate is just as good as magic in light armor. No, it's possible to cast some support magic in plate, but you still have to deal your main damage with your weapon. The establishment of a distinction between fighter and mage here, and the facts backing up that distinction, clarify that point.

Here's another use: the division between fighters (and the kinds of spells fighters can get use out of) and mages is just a basic fact about the game. Knowing that fact, and not denying it, means accepting the truth.

Also, there's a huge tactical difference in gameplay between a fighter (with support magic) and a mage. Fighters use tabbing and melee tactics and don't care about MP, mages use a great variety of spells and watch MP like a hawk.


It's not completely irrelevant, actually. Suddenly all of that "popcorn" becomes a potentially lethal MP expenditure that could have otherwise just been mopped up with a melee weapon. MP usage is very important, as you yourself point out in your last paragraph.

"Facts". No, all you posted was a bunch of replays where you extrapolated and contorted what you see as "facts", but in fact, it's just you chasing your own tail. Again, as I said, many of what you classify as "pure casters" used a melee weapon quite a bit.

Anyway, I don't have anything more to say. Your last post seemed to lack any real content and/or knowledge of how the game actually works. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and just assume that even after many top players (those better than yourself mind you) disagree or disregard your classifications entirely you still push your point because you've already invested too much into the argument and don't want to accept that maybe the collective majority/experience knows best.

Yes, I agree, "villains" is MUCH more palatable.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 02:14

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Even though mages do have a reason to hit popcorn with a weapon - not that they generally have to, constant retreat and regaining mp would also usually be an option for them - it's irrefutably a different playstyle from a character that primarily hits things with a weapon and uses some support spells. The classification of all of those games is quite clear according to the definitions I have set.


Anyway, I don't have anything more to say. Your last post seemed to lack any real content and/or knowledge of how the game actually works. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and just assume that even after many top players (those better than yourself mind you) disagree or disregard your classifications entirely you still push your point because you've already invested too much into the argument and don't want to accept that maybe the collective majority/experience knows best.

That's the kind of attitude that kept science from advancing for thousands of years. Aristotle knows best - don't challenge your elders.

The truth depends on the evidence, not on who is saying it. And in this case the evidence is clear despite your attempts to smear it.

Not that it should matter - but since it apparently matters to you - I am a greaterplayer, and check my streak. Also check that post on player Elo, which apparently placed me in the top 20. So it's ridiculous to say I don't know the game.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 03:35

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Berder wrote:Even though mages do have a reason to hit popcorn with a weapon - not that they generally have to, constant retreat and regaining mp would also usually be an option for them - it's a different playstyle from a character that primarily hits things with a weapon and uses some support spells. The classification of all of those games is quite clear according to the definitions I have set.


Anyway, I don't have anything more to say. Your last post seemed to lack any real content and/or knowledge of how the game actually works. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and just assume that even after many top players (those better than yourself mind you) disagree or disregard your classifications entirely you still push your point because you've already invested too much into the argument and don't want to accept that maybe the collective majority/experience knows best.

That's the kind of attitude that kept science from advancing for thousands of years. Aristotle knows best - don't challenge your elders.

The truth depends on the evidence, not on who is saying it. And in this case the evidence is clear despite your attempts to smear it.

Not that it should matter - but since it apparently matters to you - I am a greaterplayer, and check my streak. Also check that post on player Elo, which apparently placed me in the top 20. So it's ridiculous to say I don't know the game.


It's absolutely useless to argue with someone who only does so within their own "definitions". You are creating fantasy scenarios to fit your labels. I am not convinced of your brief analysis given with the dumps.

As to my attitude holding back science for thousands of years, well, I'm flattered really. But I was under the impression we were discussing a video game here, not the human condition.

Anyway, I am watching the newest Godzilla movie. Objectively terrible.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 04:00

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Also, there was a lot more going on in the post-Classical scientific stagnation of Europe than just blind dogmatism and/or lack of Enlightenment ideals, but whatever.
take it easy

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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 04:05

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Yeah! What Arrhy said!
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 04:12

Re: The line between fighter and mage

I love these threads because I don't play crawl and they're not about crawl.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 05:14

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Greyr wrote:Anyway, I am watching the newest Godzilla movie. Objectively terrible.


Oh, it wasn't all bad. I enjoyed Bryan Cranston and the parachute jump scene set to György Ligeti's Requiem.
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 05:18

Re: The line between fighter and mage

nicolae wrote:
Greyr wrote:Anyway, I am watching the newest Godzilla movie. Objectively terrible.


Oh, it wasn't all bad. I enjoyed Bryan Cranston and the parachute jump scene set to György Ligeti's Requiem.



I finished it. I enjoyed the parachute scene as well, probably the scene that stuck out the most for me. Godzilla looked amazing as well, but...

Spoiler: show
I'm just bitter they killed off Cranston
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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 05:19

Re: The line between fighter and mage

Greyr wrote:
nicolae wrote:
Greyr wrote:Anyway, I am watching the newest Godzilla movie. Objectively terrible.


Oh, it wasn't all bad. I enjoyed Bryan Cranston and the parachute jump scene set to György Ligeti's Requiem.



I finished it. I enjoyed the parachute scene as well, probably the scene that stuck out the most for me. Godzilla looked amazing as well, but...

Spoiler: show
I'm just bitter they killed off Cranston


Spoiler: show
Oh, yeah, total waste. Shoulda been the main human character, really.

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Post Friday, 16th January 2015, 07:48

Re: The line between fighter and mage

I especially liked the "DESk. Mage with fire storm.", which was araganzar, a player who generally likes to do lots of both melee and magic on his characters. If you add up the action table for melee, there's nearly 2500 actions on this "dedicated Mage". Never mind that these labels are just not a terribly useful concept for making decisions about the game.

I think we've let Berder get painted into a corner with arbitrary reasoning and dubious statistics long enough. There's a report on the thread, so I'm locking it.

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