Help jiyva help trolls/ogres throw rocks

[Berder]

If you're a troll/ogre with lots of throwing skill and large rocks in your inventory... then please let Jiyva not take away all your str so you can't throw them! I assume this wasn't an issue when inventory weight was still a thing, but now it is.

[Turukano]

I assume this wasn't an issue when inventory weight was still a thing

Unfortunately, it was.

I once played a troll, pushed throwing skill, switched to Jiyva and got my str extremely reduced. Ofc it was even worse then because I had to drop most of the rocks because of item weight.

This game, nearly two years ago, stopped me from worshipping Jiyva again.

[duvessa]

basically as far as I can tell, jiyva will always kill your high stat if you don't specifically manipulate the stat shuffling algorithm (and even then it's hard to avoid)

[Bloax]

If you think Jiyva is the god to pick for a reliably sweet set of mutations or proper stats then you are wrong.
Jiyva is a fun god and all, but if you want a good set of mutations that stays there you're gonna have to go Xom - and for stats you'd probably much prefer Chei over whatever the hell Jiyva is going to do with your stats.
(with chei you at least know where the hell your stats are going to go)

Although maybe all I'm saying is that something smells rotten in the state of Jiyva, don't ask me.

[duvessa]

nobody even mentioned mutations lol wtf

[cerebovssquire]

mutations have that sweet str +2

[Lasty]

You can throw large rocks as a troll or ogre no matter what your Str stat is. The Str bonus to large rock damage works the same as other similarly-weighted weapons. If there's a problem with Jiyva stats (and there probably is), it's not unique to this scenario.

[duvessa]

You can throw large rocks as a troll or ogre no matter what your Str stat is. The Str bonus to large rock damage works the same as other similarly-weighted weapons. If there's a problem with Jiyva stats (and there probably is), it's not unique to this scenario.

The range of thrown large rocks increases with str though.

[cerealjynx]

This happened on a TrCK^Jivya of mine. I had to abandon extended because Str got brought down to something ridiculous like 4. Portal projectile helps with the range problem, but that's not the only problem with having a high STR, primarily melee character.

[damiac]

It seems like overall, Jiyva really undervalues str. Although personally, I find the stat shuffling mechanic mostly just an annoyance, and think Jiyva would be better off without it, as he/she/it already has enough going on as is.

[GlassGo]

Also about throwing rocks - have never seen branded large rocks (returning), but wiki told it is exist.

[Sar]

There is an unique shop that can sell branded rocks. Also, I believe in one of sprints an unique stone giant comes with large rocks of returning.

[tasonir]

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/mor ... 205543.txt

12 strength troll. I do have -2 str mutation, but I think that adds to the point rather than weakens it - mutations keep interfering with having enough strength throughout the game. I had a +2 str mutation for longer, and jiyva uses that to take 2 strength away from you, which then when you lose the mutation hurts your strength value even more.

I wrote up suggestions based on this character before: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13719&p=190566#p190566 (point #3 is the one about strength).

In short, the simpliest thing to do would be to base it off your armor's ER - I was wearing 15 ER storm dragon armor, and my proposal was to keep your strength between ER and ER + 3, to have some variation but basically keep it 2-4 points higher than the current formula seems to.

Another, somewhat more spoilery solution could be to just hardcode ogres/trolls as wanting more strength, to directly address the large rock range issue, but dunno.

[Berder]

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/tasonir/morgue-tasonir-20140909-205543.txt

12 strength troll. I do have -2 str mutation, but I think that adds to the point rather than weakens it - mutations keep interfering with having enough strength throughout the game. I had a +2 str mutation for longer, and jiyva uses that to take 2 strength away from you, which then when you lose the mutation hurts your strength value even more.

I wrote up suggestions based on this character before: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13719&p=190566#p190566 (point #3 is the one about strength).

In short, the simpliest thing to do would be to base it off your armor's ER - I was wearing 15 ER storm dragon armor, and my proposal was to keep your strength between ER and ER + 3, to have some variation but basically keep it 2-4 points higher than the current formula seems to.

Another, somewhat more spoilery solution could be to just hardcode ogres/trolls as wanting more strength, to directly address the large rock range issue, but dunno.

What if I want to wear lighter armor and also throw large rocks?

Here's my 9 str troll, in fire dragon armor.
http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Berde ... 191942.txt

Trolls and ogres want to throw large rocks long before they necessarily are wearing heavy dragon armor. Therefore, Jiyva should take into consideration if you are a troll/ogre with large rocks in inventory and a lot of Throwing trained, and give you enough str.

[XuaXua]

Trolls and ogres want to throw large rocks long before they necessarily are wearing heavy dragon armor. Therefore, Jiyva should take into consideration if you are a troll/ogre with large rocks in inventory and a lot of Throwing trained, and give you enough str.

In-game, I never seem to encounter random trolls or ogres throwing large rocks; hill giants always throw nets; it's always the cyclops or stone giants with the large rocks.

[rockygargoyle]

Trolls and ogres want to throw large rocks long before they necessarily are wearing heavy dragon armor. Therefore, Jiyva should take into consideration if you are a troll/ogre with large rocks in inventory and a lot of Throwing trained, and give you enough str.

In-game, I never seem to encounter random trolls or ogres throwing large rocks; hill giants always throw nets; it's always the cyclops or stone giants with the large rocks.

What does this have to do with anything?

[Hirsch I]

my stepbrother once carved a hole in a banana tree and stuck his penis in it. he humped the tree for a while, until its sap, which is something close to glue, locked him in place. he cried until I found him. I laughed my ass off. in the end, he managed to release his penis from nature's grip.

[Sar]

I wonder if Fedhas should approve or disapprove of this kind of behaviour.

[XuaXua]

Trolls and ogres want to throw large rocks long before they necessarily are wearing heavy dragon armor. Therefore, Jiyva should take into consideration if you are a troll/ogre with large rocks in inventory and a lot of Throwing trained, and give you enough str.

In-game, I never seem to encounter random trolls or ogres throwing large rocks; hill giants always throw nets; it's always the cyclops or stone giants with the large rocks.

What does this have to do with anything?

He was making a declaration that Trolls and Ogres want to throw large rocks, yet I put out the example that, in the wild, Trolls and Ogres are rarely (never?) found with large rocks.

[Arrhythmia]

my stepbrother once carved a hole in a banana tree and stuck his penis in it. he humped the tree for a while, until its sap, which is something close to glue, locked him in place. he cried until I found him. I laughed my ass off. in the end, he managed to release his penis from nature's grip.

Post of the year

[duvessa]

  Code:

<minmay> i had a dream last night that i was teleported to an alternate dimension along with bill clinton and felicia day. we tried to figure out how to get back to our home dimension, but clinton kept interrupting to tell us really corny jokes and i was like “dammit bill we need to focus”. i don’t remember much of the dream other than that.

[nilsbloodaxe]

You can throw large rocks as a troll or ogre no matter what your Str stat is. The Str bonus to large rock damage works the same as other similarly-weighted weapons. If there's a problem with Jiyva stats (and there probably is), it's not unique to this scenario.

The range of thrown large rocks increases with str though.

Is the range-strength connection something unique to large rocks?

[duvessa]

You can throw large rocks as a troll or ogre no matter what your Str stat is. The Str bonus to large rock damage works the same as other similarly-weighted weapons. If there's a problem with Jiyva stats (and there probably is), it's not unique to this scenario.

The range of thrown large rocks increases with str though.

Is the range-strength connection something unique to large rocks?

Yes.

  Code:

        if (wepType == MI_LARGE_ROCK)
        {
            range     = random_range(5, 8) + random2(you.strength() / 5);
            max_range = 7 + you.strength() / 5;
        }
        else if (wepType == MI_THROWING_NET)
            max_range = range = 2 + you.body_size(PSIZE_BODY);

I wish I were making this up.

[nilsbloodaxe]

The range of thrown large rocks increases with str though.

Is the range-strength connection something unique to large rocks?

Yes.

  Code:

        if (wepType == MI_LARGE_ROCK)
        {
            range     = random_range(5, 8) + random2(you.strength() / 5);
            max_range = 7 + you.strength() / 5;
        }
        else if (wepType == MI_THROWING_NET)
            max_range = range = 2 + you.body_size(PSIZE_BODY);

I wish I were making this up.

Clearly this is part of the problem.

[Berder]

The damage of large rocks is also extremely str-weighted.

[Siegurt]

The damage of large rocks is also extremely str-weighted.

Large rocks use the same damage formula as all thrown weapons (They just have a large base damage to start with)

[Berder]

The damage of large rocks is also extremely str-weighted.

Large rocks use the same damage formula as all thrown weapons (They just have a large base damage to start with)

So what is that formula, and how much do dex/str play into it?

[Siegurt]

So what is that formula, and how much do dex/str play into it?

  Code:

Damage =
D(
    (
        (Base Damage + Throwing) *
        (30 + Fighting)
        / 30
    )
*
    (
        (
        39+
            D(
                   (
                        (
                            Str+((Dex-Str)*6/20)
                        )
                         -11
                    )*2
               )
        / 39
        )
    )
)


Or in words, the amount the average of your strength and dex is above 11 is rolled and you get +1/39 (roughly 2.5%) You get D(80% of 2.5%) for strength

Simplified that's D(2%) per point of strength above 11 and D(.5) per point of Dex above 11.

[comebackshane]

Having played some jello trolls myself, I completely agree. I put points into armour and throwing but you get sapped of strenght almost completely anyway which makes throwing less appealing which is sad cause large rocks are one of the better tools a troll has and one of the few items that dont get eaten by jellos.

[eharper256]

I think the stat shuffling, if kept, should be more like the 'wobbly jelly' it's trying to imply; as in, it only shifts 1 point around, but does so rather rapidly and randomly (every 500 turns or so). And it shouldn't be weighted to anything in this case. So it might be possible to be horribly STR nerfed, but the chances are pretty slim.