The Tavern

Big kobolds are just another speed 10 melee monster really (ok they get a band of kobolds that get different weapons to normal kobolds) that aren't particularly threatening at their depth or at any depth, really, not even sewers as you can safely engage them when they're on shallow water
since this game is suffering from an oversaturation of monsters imo and this one is bland, imo it should be removed.
thoughts?

Rename to Hobgoblins?

Replace with small kobolds, which move faster and have higher EV?
Give them something that helps the normal kobolds stab you? Nets or constriction or hexes?
Let them work like guardian golems, so they share damage with normal kobolds, and the band sticks around longer? Make that a signature feature of kobolds, and change summon golem to summon kobold. It's a nice quirk to kobold summoners.

OP certainly has a point here.

Still, should every past D:4 monster with speed of 10 and just melee attack be removed?

Hippogriffs? Griffons? Plain orcs in the Orc Mines (i mean who the fuck wants those? No piety, no exp, just annoyance)?

Those 3 monsters sound like good monsters to remove, to me.

Sphara wrote:Still, should every past D:4 monster with speed of 10 and just melee attack be removed?

Yeah, that doesn't sound too bad to me, although there are a few lair monsters that try and be interesting.
next to remove should be speed <10 monsters

Make them all speed 11.

If flying were more impressive, then hippogriffs and griffons would be more fun. Flying should let monsters occupy the same space as other monsters or the player so long as the total size is low enough. I'm sure this would be a nightmare to code and balance, but it would make flying monsters memorable.

jejorda2 wrote:If flying were more impressive, then hippogriffs and griffons would be more fun. Flying should let monsters occupy the same space as other monsters or the player so long as the total size is low enough. I'm sure this would be a nightmare to code and balance, but it would make flying monsters memorable.

It'd be a nightmare to play with, and flying monsters would certainly be memorable for making corridors not so corridor-like anymore.
You'll have to figure out an untedious method of specifying which bat you want to attack too.

Code:: On this square: two foes (flying) A bat (lightly wounded), A bat (almost dead). You hit the bat. The bat is heavily wounded.

Yay!

On topic, I guess removing all the bland monsters would make the game more...interesting, but giving every monster some kinda gimmick would feel equally absurd to me.

Vault guards are interesting since they clutter the floor and are accompanied by their much more dangerous friends, but still pose a threat wielding big weapons and hitting kinda hard.

(And I don't want to face a welcoming party of vault sentinel/warden/convoker on vaults:5, someone save us from the devs!)

I don't think Crawl is suffering from over-saturation of monsters honestly. Big kobolds might not add a lot to the game, but they don't make it worse either. It would be better to find a way to make them more interesting I thing.

Kobold bands might be more interesting if they engage in more "intelligent" band behavior than other groups. Since they are so weak anyway, and kobolds are supposed to be cunning maybe they could get behaviors like:

* Level knowledge, including initial enemy spawns
* Never disbanding, if a kobold spots the player where the others don't it will either try to stay with the pack or make the whole pack follow him.
* Not following the player into single tile corridors
* Trying to flee or shout loudly to attract more enemies

Killing the Big Kobold first would make them disband in random directions and act as "regular" kobolds from then on

Re flying monsters occupying the same space as others:

Lyrick wrote:You'll have to figure out an untedious method of specifying which bat you want to attack too.

Obviously you don't get a choice, you attack a random monster. Maybe weighted towards the more healthy one. It's supposed to be a penalty after all.

It's a bad idea though, because having to examine the tile to see which monsters are on there would be super annoying.

Re topic:
I'm all for removing big kobolds. Replace them with ogres or something. At the depths where big kobolds show up it's probably fine.

There are some sewers that place big kobolds, having ogres there would be a bit scary. Plus that one sewer with big kobold necromancers.

I'm all for making kobold packs behave more intelligently while their leader is alive, but is someone going to code that...?

Sprucery wrote:I'm all for making kobold packs behave more intelligently while their leader is alive, but is someone going to code that...?

Just make big kobold buff other kobolds like the orc knight do?

Sprucery wrote:I'm all for making kobold packs behave more intelligently while their leader is alive, but is someone going to code that...?

Cannibalize the code from Smart Kobold.

If big kobolds berserked regular kobolds, and killing the big one made the little ones run in fear, they'd be a little more interesting and dangerous.

1.5x nothing is still nothing
e: or is monster berserk 2x i forget

damiac wrote:If big kobolds berserked regular kobolds, and killing the big one made the little ones run in fear, they'd be a little more interesting and dangerous.

Many situations there are several Big Kobolds, so those scenarios might need to be rethought, or the kobolds run in fear when a Big Kobold in view is killed when no other Big Kobolds are in view.

notcluie wrote:1.5x nothing is still nothing
e: or is monster berserk 2x i forget

The might effect from berserk is what would make the little kobolds dangerous.
The haste effect then makes them more dangerous.

1.5 * 0 = 0, true.
But 0 + 10 * 1.5 = 15.

Of course, even unberserked kobolds do more than 0 damage, and might doesn't just add a flat 10 damage, but you get the idea.
And yeah, the run in fear part could just be if all big kobolds are killed, or even dropped completely. If big kobolds always came with a band of little kobolds, and they always berserked upon entering LOS, they'd certainly be more interesting than they are right now.

Might for monsters is just 1.5x damage, it does not work like it does for players.

Oh, well that's weird. Fair enough then, berserking kobolds would be meaningless at the depths big kobolds show up at.

What if Big Kobolds always have a reaching attack, but it can only reach over standard Kobolds? And Big Kobolds can fire over the heads of standard Kobolds without hitting them. Give them hand crossbows! Or nets, so the little guys can stab you while you are in the net. Or give the little guys whips of constriction, which take away your EV so the big guys can reach over them and club you.

Big kobolds are out of theme for kobolds, as well as being redundant with a dozen or so other monsters. Other kobolds are fragile monsters that can randomly be more dangerous than usual by means of dangerous equipment or demon spam, and if we need more types of kobolds than two (standard and demonologist) they should reinforce the theme rather than being a nondescript slab of meat. Kobold hexers that introduce status effects to early-game players are an obvious option, although they probably shouldn't overlap with the slow and confusion spam from orc wizards. Kobold snipers are another reasonable possibility, spawning with low-level launchers now that those actually exist sometimes. Probably snipers would be uncommon spawns, considering the impact they would have on loot.

I don't know that we need more kobolds than the standard regular kobolds, electrocution kobolds, distortion kobolds, curare kobolds, and so forth we have now. They're pretty scary early on when they need to be, and it's better not to dilute their theme if there's not a compelling reason to do so.

KoboldLord wrote:Big kobolds are out of theme for kobolds, as well as being redundant with a dozen or so other monsters. Other kobolds are fragile monsters that can randomly be more dangerous than usual by means of dangerous equipment or demon spam, and if we need more types of kobolds than two (standard and demonologist) they should reinforce the theme rather than being a nondescript slab of meat. Kobold hexers that introduce status effects to early-game players are an obvious option, although they probably shouldn't overlap with the slow and confusion spam from orc wizards. Kobold snipers are another reasonable possibility, spawning with low-level launchers now that those actually exist sometimes. Probably snipers would be uncommon spawns, considering the impact they would have on loot.

I don't know that we need more kobolds than the standard regular kobolds, electrocution kobolds, distortion kobolds, curare kobolds, and so forth we have now. They're pretty scary early on when they need to be, and it's better not to dilute their theme if there's not a compelling reason to do so.

for some reason I feel like taking this guy's kobold opinions more seriously

nicolae wrote:for some reason I feel like taking this guy's kobold opinions more seriously

crawl trivia: in linley's dungeon crawl, the monsters that later became "big kobolds" were named "kobold lord"

Isn't a kobold sniper just a kobold that happened to spawn with a blowgun?

Seriously though a kobold sniper would be cool, an early source of hand crossbows and crossbow bolts would make starting as a crossbow hunter more viable at least.

Big kobolds are a bit more of a threat to really squishy characters, so I'm ambivalent.

What I'm really excited about is the return of notcluie. I missed you so much.

the +10, +0 kobold "Sniper" {venom, SInv}

PleasingFungus wrote:crawl trivia: in linley's dungeon crawl, the monsters that later became "big kobolds" were named "kobold lord"

...and that was because Nethack has kobold lords, of course...

Sprucery wrote:
PleasingFungus wrote:crawl trivia: in linley's dungeon crawl, the monsters that later became "big kobolds" were named "kobold lord"

...and that was because Nethack has kobold lords, of course...

[bikeshedding] Kobolders because they are more courageous than kobolds? [/bikeshedding]

I'm for making them more commander-ish by having them move slightly slower than regular kobolds, so the regulars get out there and do the dirty work. To compensate, the reaching suggestion was good, or the empowerment. I really like the new unique, "Robin" for some reason.

Sprucery wrote:
PleasingFungus wrote:crawl trivia: in linley's dungeon crawl, the monsters that later became "big kobolds" were named "kobold lord"

...and that was because Nethack has kobold lords, of course...

I support removing KoboldLords from Crawl.

Let big kobolds cast inner flame on kobolds.

Im with the idea that while they might not add anything overt in some people's opinions, they certainly dont detract from the game. If anything, having a bit of variation is nice even if its just visual. That said, the kobold packs that big kobolds usually load with are somewhat different than the usual situation, and they can be dangerous given the character/situation, like opening up a door to a room of 20+, half of which are spamming ranged attacks including poisoned needles.

If I am playing a stabber and I still haven't gotten a decent SB, these packs can be a bit of a godsend as there is a very good chance of a branded SB or three loading, though of course you have to use some tactics to divide and conquer the group in order to get it.

I really don't see the problem here, but I do like the idea of giving the packs intelligent behavior/bonus powers whatever.

PleasingFungus wrote:
nicolae wrote:for some reason I feel like taking this guy's kobold opinions more seriously

crawl trivia: in linley's dungeon crawl, the monsters that later became "big kobolds" were named "kobold lord"

way cooler

Rename them to 'intermediate kobolds', and make them only spawn between levels

Make big kobolds a two tile wide monster. They move and attack at spriggan speed, but they can't enter a space if the space beside it isn't also empty. They treat vertical and horizontal corridors differently.

remove crocodiles

johlstei wrote:remove crocodiles

No way, crocodiles are critical. They provide new players with something nearly harmless to confuse alligators with.

As for big kobolds, replace with kobold scavengers? Always spawns with negative enchanted chain or scale mail, negative enchanted heavy weapons, and a 1- or 2-charge good attack wand. They get off one or two dangerous long distance attacks, but lack the firepower to really take down any character that recognizes what they are and manages to retreat in time. Their gear is dangerous enough to make the player be cautious about tabbing the entire band, but doesn't give the player anything they'll really be psyched about. However, even finding an empty attack wand is a good find, as scrolls of recharging aren't unheard of in the early game. Maybe give them Robin's popcorn toss ability to boot?

I'm not normally much of an animal rights sorta guy, but I wouldn't mind seeing baby alligators removed. Those are just weird and unsettling... Give the 'gator a band of those parasite-eating birds instead!

I find Kobold scavengers appealing. It's a pretty simple solution.

Plovers (birds to accompany gators in lieu of baby gators) should have lots of AC and lower EV than bats, just so they require different tactics than gators. I don't know how to flavor that reasonable. Iron plovers? Hercules or Jason or Perseus fought some kind of metal birds, maybe those should be in somewhere.

I like how crocodiles are different from Yaks: water doesn't make them easier to kill, but cold slows them down.

If you get rid of crocodiles, there are either fewer monsters (unlikely,) more normal monsters (Yaks) or more odd monsters. More odd monsters makes them odd monsters less exciting, and more Yaks is not better than Yaks & crocodiles.

I'd kind of like to see a non-constriction latching ability on some monsters, and crocodiles could grab with teeth. If an enemy has latched on to you, it gets to move for free (using no time) whenever you move, so it gets more hits when you retreat than another monster would. It makes no difference if you don't walk away from it while in melee range.

Crocodiles could pull you under in deep water and drown you. Crawl needs more realism ;)

Sprucery wrote:Crocodiles could pull you under in deep water and drown you. Crawl needs more realism

If this were true, then the Crocs would simply sit there and wait for you to unwittingly walk towards them instead of charging at you like every other creature in the game.

McGeekster wrote:If this were true, then the Crocs would simply sit there and wait for you to unwittingly walk towards them instead of charging at you like every other creature in the game.

Definitely don't need any more monsters interrupting autotravel with "strange disturbance in the water".

You walk next to water, and it suddenly ambushes you. Crocodile traps!

wheals wrote:You walk next to water, and it suddenly ambushes you. Crocodile traps!

crocodile basket traps

Sphara wrote:Hippogriffs? Griffons?

Support it. Replace them with early harpies.

GlassGo wrote:
Sphara wrote:Hippogriffs? Griffons?

Support it. Replace them with early harpies.

And while we're at it, lets replace all those big kobolds with tengus, just to make things more "interesting".

The Tavern

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