The Tavern

Currently the most powerful transmutation spell at level 8 is necromutation. Recently translocations received its own level 9 spell and many schools already have their own. A few ideas on what might make for a cool final form.

Angel form: Not usable by any evil god and pretty much the opposite of necromutation you would obtain a few special abilities. Unarmed attacks are now holy branded, and you obtain a neat holy aura a few tiles around you similar to that of TSO. You would also obtain 3 ranks of life protection

Golden dragon form: Basically a buffed up dragon form with rC+, rF+, and rP+ and three separate types of breaths.

Demon form: Take on the form and powers of some tier 1-2 demon. If this is too powerful then it could have a similar effect to summon horrible things where it will come at a temporary cost to some stat.

Orb of Fire form: Sure these guys can be ridiculously powerful, but look at spells like firestorm and how much of a solution it is a general solution to every problem in the game. It would come with a fireball power.

the most powerful transmutation spell is at level 5, nmut isnt close to it
anyway, just stating some vague ideas probably isnt going to get anything done
individual critiques:
angel form: lol holy brand
golden dragon form: why do i want to get exp for a level 9 spell on a Tm that does what a level 7 (5) spell does
OOF form: so why do i want a level 9 spell for a level 5 spell again that doesn't even work well with Tm?
demon form: if this is random it goes against most form spells in knowing what you get, ridiculously broken if
you could consistently become omniresistant/speed 20

in short your ideas are bland and i would never train tmuts to 27 for rC+ when i could be using blade hands or dragon form
transmutations does not need a level 9 spell

Well first of all, Necromutation is currently the least powerful transmutation spell, and by an enormous margin at that.

EugeneJudo wrote:Angel form: Not usable by any evil god and pretty much the opposite of necromutation you would obtain a few special abilities. Unarmed attacks are now holy branded, and you obtain a neat holy aura a few tiles around you similar to that of TSO. You would also obtain 3 ranks of life protection

Why would evil gods in general be opposed to this? Only Yredelemnul specifically dislikes holy beings.

EugeneJudo wrote:Golden dragon form: Basically a buffed up dragon form with rC+, rF+, and rP+ and three separate types of breaths.

I assume you mean to replace dragon form with this. (If not then I don't see a purpose to adding it, at all). It would also probably pretty much never be a good idea to use a breath weapon from this form.

EugeneJudo wrote:Demon form: Take on the form and powers of some tier 1-2 demon. If this is too powerful then it could have a similar effect to summon horrible things where it will come at a temporary cost to some stat.

Unlike in, say, ToME4, players and monsters are different in Crawl, so this doesn't make any sense.

EugeneJudo wrote:Orb of Fire form ... It would come with a fireball power.

What, why? Fireball is already a player-castable spell.

duvessa wrote:Well first of all, Necromutation is currently the least powerful transmutation spell, and by an enormous margin at that.

EugeneJudo wrote:Angel form: Not usable by any evil god and pretty much the opposite of necromutation you would obtain a few special abilities. Unarmed attacks are now holy branded, and you obtain a neat holy aura a few tiles around you similar to that of TSO. You would also obtain 3 ranks of life protection
Why would evil gods in general be opposed to this? Only Yredelemnul specifically dislikes holy beings.

EugeneJudo wrote:Golden dragon form: Basically a buffed up dragon form with rC+, rF+, and rP+ and three separate types of breaths.
I assume you mean to replace dragon form with this. (If not then I don't see a purpose to adding it, at all). It would also probably pretty much never be a good idea to use a breath weapon from this form.

EugeneJudo wrote:Demon form: Take on the form and powers of some tier 1-2 demon. If this is too powerful then it could have a similar effect to summon horrible things where it will come at a temporary cost to some stat.
Unlike in, say, ToME4, players and monsters are different in Crawl, so this doesn't make any sense.

EugeneJudo wrote:Orb of Fire form ... It would come with a fireball power.
What, why? Fireball is already a player-castable spell.

Necromutation has several bonuses that I think qualify it beyond the least powerful spell. It grants you the perks of being undead which allows you to cast spells spells without spending any food, along with the best rMut in the game. It gives you full immunity to torment and effects like rotting or poison making it perfect for the majority of late game. If anything i'd say that sticks to snakes is the least powerful.

Why would it be a bad idea to use any of the breaths from dragon form (really not certain what you meant by that). As for demon form I meant more along the lines of a particular demon rather than a random one each time.

EugeneJudo wrote:Necromutation has several bonuses that I think qualify it beyond the least powerful spell.

such as not being able to use potions! i didn't know 6 ac and 40 mr was better than !might/!brilliance/!haste nowadays

EugeneJudo wrote:Why would it be a bad idea to use any of the breaths from dragon form (really not certain what you meant by that)

because any turn you breathe on things is a turn you arent eviscerating!!!!! them with ridiculous dform melee

If I were designing a level 9 transmutation spell, I would want it to cover an area that transmutations doesn't presently cover:

Wisp Form Level 9 Transmutations

In wisp form you are immune to all damage, from all sources, you also cannot attack in any way, your movement rate gets a large boost and you fly. When wisp form ends, you are subject to a large drain effect.

Wisp form moves at .5 AUT, cannot attack, and cannot take damage, when it ends you are subject to a rather large skill drain effect (The intention here is to make spamming it impractical for long term survival, as you'll drop your success rate after each successive cast, however this isn't the only way to accomplish this and other methods would be appropriate as well)

The intention here is to give transmutations something that works as a sort of alternative to ddoor and/or cBlink, as an escape/panic button that has limited use. Transmutations already has plenty of damage ability, making a bigger nastier "do lots of damage" transmutation wouldn't really work well.

However that being said, I don't think transmutations needs a level 9 spell, I'm also not very partial to the name or it's theme, but this is a sort of thing that might be useful in a level 9 transmutation spell.

Wisp form sounds more like a god ability than a spell, and oh hey look at shadow form.

Well, shadow form is half damage and halved offense, rather than no damage and no offense, but yes, the two have some similarities (beyond simply the drain-on-finish)

However the primary thing that wisp form gives you is a way to escape without dying from an otherwise-deadly situation, it has some similarities to CBlink and DDoor as well. However, really *anything* is similar to *anything else* if you broaden your parameters enough (Look, fireball is just like a melee attack, which is just like repel missiles, which is just like eating rations, you hit a key and something happens! and Dungeon crawl is just like Angry birds, which is just like a ham sandwich)

Like I said, I don't think this is a needed thing for transmutations to have, so the merits of the design are pretty much moot in any case.

My main point is that costing drain doesn't seem like a good thing to do with a spell, since that seems a lot more like an effect you'd rather make into a god ability or consumable.

Bring back air walk - how bad could it be?

Not every school needs a level 9 spell, IMO.

crate wrote:My main point is that costing drain doesn't seem like a good thing to do with a spell, since that seems a lot more like an effect you'd rather make into a god ability or consumable.

As I said, that was just an arbitrary method of making spamming such spell impractical, there are others (imposing a hard time out, causing glow, lowering Max hps etc etc) I just happen to like drain. I would, on further consideration, probably make all healing impossible, including regeneration, while this spell was active.

Again I don't think the school particularly needs a level 9 spell, although I do think a level 9 escape spell wouldn't be out of order in general.

Killing everything is technically escaping because there's nothing to escape from, right?

Does it have to be a form? How about transmute a wall into a temporary clone of the player. Mechanically, like a blend of summon elemental and Mara's illusion.

There's a card that does that (well, minus the wall requirement).

How about something like this?

Ascension
Level 9 Transmutation

Become a being of pure energy

-50% hp
Health and Mana are combined
Everything but Rings and Amulets melded
AC set to 10 (no GDR)
Unarmed Damage = 15 + (str + int + dex) / 3
Immunity to Rot, Poison, and Torment
Regen 3
Wild Magic 3
Archmage
No Hunger costs for spells
Gains the ability "Gather Power"

Gather Power - Spend 3 turns gathering power from the nearby area. When completed, your mana is fully restored and you become exhausted and drained. Casting any spells will end the effect, but not cause drain.

mrpyro wrote:How about something like this?

Ascension
Level 9 Transmutation

Become a being of pure energy

-50% hp
Health and Mana are combined
Everything but Rings and Amulets melded
AC set to 10 (no GDR)
Unarmed Damage = 15 + (str + int + dex) / 3
Immunity to Rot, Poison, and Torment
Regen 3
Wild Magic 3
Archmage
No Hunger costs for spells
Gains the ability "Gather Power"

Gather Power - Spend 3 turns gathering power from the nearby area. When completed, your mana is fully restored and you become exhausted and drained. Casting any spells will end the effect, but not cause drain.

You're just making a suggestion to make a suggestion here, and that's not particularly helpful. Additions to the game need to add something unique or fill a hole in gameplay design or fix annoyances with the game, otherwise they're just bloat.

Further, this spell is awful. I'd hardly consider using it at level 3, and even then I'd just be using it as a super scummy Cure Poison+regen after combat ended. -50% HP and MP+HP combined means that you're coming into the spell at a ridiculously low HP total, and with gear melded and terrible AC, you're basically guaranteed to get killed at that point against anything worth caring about. Further, the majority of your benefits aren't that useful. Regen 3 is, last I checked, 60% of the "Regeneration" spell, and a huge boost to spell power at the point you can cast ninth level spells isn't terribly relevant unless you're a blaster, and if you're using 9th level form transmutations, blasting might not be your thing. Losing a lot of success on your utility spells is a big penalty though, which is another knock against this spells usefulness.

Rounding it out, spell hunger, rot, and poison immunity aren't that big of a deal at the point you can cast level 9 spells, and torment immunity would be great if the spell didn't basically torment you on casting. Plus, these resistances make it seem like it's supposed to be "Necromutation but more!!!!!" which isn't good design to begin with. Gathering Power is both suicidal and seriously against Crawl design, since taking no actions three turns to fully heal yourself when your max HP is probably around 150 means you're spending three turns pressing S with no defenses in hopes of a big payout.

Rounding it out is the weird part, ridiculously ludicrous melee damage. I feel like that has to be a mistake, since it's Blade Hands +++, but even if it isn't I'd never want to melee with -50% health, 10 AC, low EV, and forced Guardian Spirit.

milski wrote:You're just making a suggestion to make a suggestion here, and that's not particularly helpful. Additions to the game need to add something unique or fill a hole in gameplay design or fix annoyances with the game, otherwise they're just bloat.

Wow that's rude for some user's first post oO

...even if the spell is, like you said, awful, and the suggestion not really useful...

mrpyro, welcome to the Tavern \o/

You can do 15 runes with dragon form and statue form. I don't really see the need for another form.

Piginabag wrote:You can do 15 runes with dragon form and statue form. I don't really see the need for another form.

I do. You just pointed it out in your post. One should be able to "do" 15 runes with a single form.
Based on existing game records, this could be a Level 9 Transmutation spell, "Player Form".

Siegurt wrote:If I were designing a level 9 transmutation spell, I would want it to cover an area that transmutations doesn't presently cover:

Wisp Form Level 9 Transmutations

In wisp form you are immune to all damage, from all sources, you also cannot attack in any way, your movement rate gets a large boost and you fly. When wisp form ends, you are subject to a large drain effect.

Wisp form moves at .5 AUT, cannot attack, and cannot take damage, when it ends you are subject to a rather large skill drain effect (The intention here is to make spamming it impractical for long term survival, as you'll drop your success rate after each successive cast, however this isn't the only way to accomplish this and other methods would be appropriate as well)

The intention here is to give transmutations something that works as a sort of alternative to ddoor and/or cBlink, as an escape/panic button that has limited use. Transmutations already has plenty of damage ability, making a bigger nastier "do lots of damage" transmutation wouldn't really work well.

However that being said, I don't think transmutations needs a level 9 spell, I'm also not very partial to the name or it's theme, but this is a sort of thing that might be useful in a level 9 transmutation spell.

I had been thinking about a spell similar to this a few weeks ago, but kept my mouth shut. It could have been a level 9 transmutations, but maybe not. It too was thought of as a means of escape from certain death when nothing else would do.

Etherealize
Turns the player ethereal

Player cannot cast spells
Player cannot fight
Player cannot eat
Player cannot drink potions
Player cannot evoke items
Player cannot change worn or wielded items
Player cannot pick up items
Player can walk through walls
Player can walk through monsters
Player can walk through water
Player can walk through lava
Causes stasis while active
Grants invisibility
Grants immunity to fire
Grants immunity to cold
Grants immunity to poison
Grants immunity to elec
Grants immunity to corrosion
Grants immunity to acid
Grants immunity to steam
Grants immunity to rot
Grants immunity to mutation
Causes vulnerability to negative energy (2x)
Causes vulnerability to magic damage (2x)
Player does not regenerate while ethereal
Player still in walls or lava when the transformation ends dies
Transformation can be extended

Raiju form, or a devouring mouth form that cant move but spawn tentacles that grab enemies.

How about moving Necromutation to level 9, but giving every valid species an inherent wizardry bonus to cast it? It wouldn't be any more or less useless than before, since it has close to zero value already for a normal game and it can't really get any less valuable than that, but the existence of a L9 transmutations spell would squelch most of the desire to ram in a new L9 transmutations spell just to fill in the empty space.

Or we get rid of necromutation and replace it with something less awful.

Siegurt wrote:Or we get rid of necromutation and replace it with something less awful.

Are we being serious here? i consider necromutation a nice spell, besides, i really wanted to see at least one transmutation spell related with air since theres one for every other "element"...

Just spitballing here, but given that someone mentioned an escape spell and another mentioned the lack of an 'air' spell, why not something like "Static Form" or "Breeze Form" which gives a speed boost, EV, resistances, allows for passwall-style travel, and gives the player the ability to smite-target blink next to an enemy (like Dithmenos's Shadowstep)?

Again, just a random idea. X heads are better than one! (if X>1)

Good idea, I had a similar idea for a level 9 air elemental form spell:
- 20 AC, increases EV by 20, increases dex by 8
- rElec++, rPois, no hunger (except the hunger from using spells/invocations/etc)
- to counterbalance this it should have rF-- and rC--
- negative earth enhancer, air enhancer (this can be removed if it's too good)
- since it turns you into air, it should make you drop all your carried items
I'm having trouble thinking of a name for it though, I was thinking something like "Wind Stroll" but it doesn't sound quite right.

Count of Hearts wrote:why not something like "Static Form" or "Breeze Form" which gives a speed boost, EV, resistances, allows for passwall-style travel, and gives the player the ability to smite-target blink next to an enemy (like Dithmenos's Shadowstep)?

Yeah, heres the problem, people mention a lvl 9 escape transmutation spell, so the only way to make it reliable is to add a bunch of cool mechanisms that steps into god abilities territory, otherwise its not worth getting it. For me, just the idea of a raiju that can travel through mobs while doing damage or away from them, being able to bounce off walls to escape LoS, being immune to electricity and carrying electric branded attack is already strong enough.

Lightning spire form! While in this form you get rElec, can spam free lightning bolts, but can't move, attack, or dodge, just what everyone needs? right?

dynast wrote:
Count of Hearts wrote:why not something like "Static Form" or "Breeze Form" which gives a speed boost, EV, resistances, allows for passwall-style travel, and gives the player the ability to smite-target blink next to an enemy (like Dithmenos's Shadowstep)?

Yeah, heres the problem, people mention a lvl 9 escape transmutation spell, so the only way to make it reliable is to add a bunch of cool mechanisms that steps into god abilities territory, otherwise its not worth getting it. For me, just the idea of a raiju that can travel through mobs while doing damage or away from them, being able to bounce off walls to escape LoS, being immune to electricity and carrying electric branded attack is already strong enough.

You make a good point. I was going to suggest a travel-through-monsters specifically, but felt like it might cause some mechanical problems since there is no other instance of traveling on the same square . Though, it would be very useful if you got yourself trapped in a corridor and a nasty unique you don't want to deal with filters through a corner.

As for the electric branded attack/damaging enemies you pass through, I was thinking on keeping it focused on defense rather than offense, so, perhaps it wouldn't let you attack, but would let you move through enemies, increase your speed, and confuse enemies you pass through? Something to that effect. If we're going to shoot for an escape mechanism, might as well go for full escape, instead of applying some damage that would be unneeded if you're casting the spell to get away and get healed up by the time you came back to fight the enemies anyways.

duvessa wrote:Good idea, I had a similar idea for a level 9 air elemental form spell:
- 20 AC, increases EV by 20, increases dex by 8
- rElec++, rPois, no hunger (except the hunger from using spells/invocations/etc)
- to counterbalance this it should have rF-- and rC--
- negative earth enhancer, air enhancer (this can be removed if it's too good)
- since it turns you into air, it should make you drop all your carried items
I'm having trouble thinking of a name for it though, I was thinking something like "Wind Stroll" but it doesn't sound quite right.

you're idea has been considered by the devs and removed from trunk before it was implemented

(did it seriously raise dex by 8 though that seems awfully random)

TCP/IP form, level 9 Transmutations/Air
You get healed by elec damage, but it times out quickly if you don't get healed by elec in the next 3 turns.

OR

Cure bad mutations, level 9 Transmutations
Kidding

OR

Evolution, level 9 Transmutations
This spell infuses the caster with controlled dose of magical contamination. While the spell is active, a random part of the caster's body (head, neck, arm, torso, feet, hands) grows into pulsating lump of flesh which rapidly grows and adapts to changes in it's environment. This makes the body part in question unusable to anything but combat and makes the caster more fit to his or her environment. The growth is permament until damaged heavily, but the spell can be recast to destroy the growth and make another one.
Casting this spell will leave the caster drained both physically and mentally.

[get a minor drain + ability damage after casting]

the way it works, it is like grow appendage, except it creates a tentacle body part instead of horns etc. Then, while the spell is active, it works like Quazlal's elemental adaptation except the resistances become fixed after spell ends. Then, it works like cigotuvi's embrace, or repel missiles - forever until you take enough beating.
Maybe make it so it gives you random temporary benefical mutation/s?

Likely horribly unbalanced, but the first thing that comes to mind is DOUBLE FORM! Stone Hydra! Ice Spiders! Sticks to Dragons!

blade hydra; because +9 executioners axes of speed don't kill fast enough
because +9 vamp exec axes don't stop me from dying enough

Siegurt wrote:Or we get rid of necromutation and replace it with something less awful.

Objection! :lol:

cerealjynx wrote:Likely horribly unbalanced, but the first thing that comes to mind is DOUBLE FORM! Stone Hydra! Ice Spiders! Sticks to Dragons!

Lol it was hilarious, especially last. ))))

bah. the OBVIOUS solution is Kraken form.
edit: scrap that. the OBVIOUS solution is sticks to dragons. thanks, cerealjynxs.

Or alternately: dragons to sticks

Xom should do that like he does with snakes

I'd honestly prefer if Necromutation wasn't removed. it might not be excellent for everything, so, if it's so bad, just change it. No need to take our only ability that lets us become Liches! That or give us a Lich species. Pls. Pretty pls.

Lev 9 tMut/Earth: Mountain dwarf form.

Once cast, allows you to start as MD for the future in every version of DCSS.

Siegurt wrote:Or alternately: dragons to sticks

You cast Dragons to Sticks on Tiamat!
Tiamat is transformed into a tree!
The tree falls on you!
You have died...

Brannock wrote:Not every school needs a level 9 spell, IMO.

Yes they do.

mechanicalmaniac wrote:
Brannock wrote:Not every school needs a level 9 spell, IMO.

Yes they do.

No they don't.

Symmetry isn't a part of the Crawl ethos. Not to mention a level nine poison (kill dudes) spell would mostly likely NOT be worth getting, like, ever.

dornbeast wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Or alternately: dragons to sticks

You cast Dragons to Sticks on Tiamat!
Tiamat is transformed into a tree!
The tree falls on you!
You have died...

I bet Xtahua would be super-pissed if that spell made it in and was used on him.

Meld
Lvl 9 Earth/Tmut

You dissolve into the ground beneath you, temporarily becoming one with the dungeon itself. You immediately get a large chunk of the map around you revealed and have a temporary ESP effect letting you detect nearby opponents that are otherwise hidden. The player character vanishes from existence temporarily. For X turns (something short, like 4-8 depending on spell power), you can cause the floor to lash out at targets, dishing out high-damage AC-reducible smite-targeted crushing attacks to anything within your line of sight.

Upon ending, suffer Exhaustion (invincibility effects ought not be spammable after all), but reappear silently a la Step From Time, so stealthy characters won't immediately be noticed. While melded, you're invulnerable to all forms of damage (since there's nothing for enemies to actually hit), but suffer as though tormented each time a wall is destroyed. If you already know Passwall, Meld only requires 6 spell slots.

Possibly allow the player to choose a return spot as though they just did a controlled teleport? That seems broken, as it amounts to an instant controlled teleport + a half dozen free Iron Shots.

Giant Orange Brainbow Dash wrote:Meld
Lvl 9 Earth/Tmut

You dissolve into the ground beneath you, temporarily becoming one with the dungeon itself. You immediately get a large chunk of the map around you revealed and have a temporary ESP effect letting you detect nearby opponents that are otherwise hidden. The player character vanishes from existence temporarily. For X turns (something short, like 4-8 depending on spell power), you can cause the floor to lash out at targets, dishing out high-damage AC-reducible smite-targeted crushing attacks to anything within your line of sight.

Upon ending, suffer Exhaustion (invincibility effects ought not be spammable after all), but reappear silently a la Step From Time, so stealthy characters won't immediately be noticed. Invulnerability to all forms of damage (since there's nothing actually hit), but suffer as though tormented each time a wall is destroyed. If you already know Passwall, Meld only requires 6 spell slots.

Possibly allow the player to choose a return spot as though they just did a controlled teleport? That seems broken, as it amounts to an instant controlled teleport + a half dozen free Iron Shots.

This is cool, and unique, but are there too many Earth/Tmut combos?

Then we should just kill Stoneskin. And if you reeeeeeaally want an Air/Tmut spell...

Crimson Imp Form
Level 3 Fire/Air/Tmut

Spriggan speed, meld all items, tiny size, permaflight, blink/frenzy-branded attacks that do no damage, randomly semi-controlled blinks instead of normal movement. Holy vulnerability, rF+, rC-, noisy due to random gibberish insults being absolutely critical to their nature. None of those silly demonic immunities though, or people will start talking about it being totally OP and the only way to run the extended endgame.

If nothing else there's something satisfying about the idea of pissing off an orc warrior so much that he just annihilates the rest of the band while you scurry away to freedom.

I for one love meld, it just exudes a feeling of power. I guess being invulnerable will do that, after all. Biggest issue with it would be the targeting interface, how to have the player select 3-4 targets and understand that movement isn't possible, etc. For simplicity I'd probably just have the player reappear on the tile they cast the spell, and prevent monsters from moving onto that tile to prevent collisions. It definitely has issues with clarity to the player and interface, but the theme is great.

As for air walk, or wind stroll as it's now known, I don't see why it couldn't be salvaged. Remove the terrible things like dropping your inventory, I don't think it needs rF-- or rC--, could probably scale back the huge +20 ev to something like +10 ev, leave regen at normal rates? Seems like a fairly useful form, although I'm not sure why it would need to be level 9, dual school.

Meld should be called One with the Hole.

Hirsch I wrote:Meld should be called One with the Hole.

Only if you get a flag for an icon in tiles.

The Tavern

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