Remember Me?

[NessOnett]

For those of you who don't remember me, I made a very long and controversial post on these forums almost a year ago about some of the major problems this game had and what needed to be fixed about them. I was met with narrow-minded criticism of people resorting to personal attacks on me, spreading outright lies about the things I had said, and saying that nothing I had listed as a problem was actually a problem. The thread was subsequently locked when the devs decided they were extremely upset about me posting facts and them having no counterpoints other than that I was wrong.

What was I 'wrong' about you ask? Well let's see, I argued that:

• Ghouls were tedious and offputting and in need of redesign to ease their eating habits.
• Demigods were weak and needed to be reworked to take advantage of their only real advantage, their exceedingly high stats.
• Distortion brand being hidden was a poorly conceived concept because it led to anyone on a streak needing to treat every glowing weapon as having a chance to banish them, and never get hit by anything without risking effectively instantly dying.
• Inventory Item limit(52) and weight limits were redundant and obnoxious and one of those systems needed to be removed.
• Item destruction was an extremely unfun mechanic that served almost no practical purpose and encouraged repetitive, tedious, nonsense behavior(akin to breadswinging).

And obviously there were a lot more things included, but I wanted to bring attention to these specific ones for a reason. Can you guess? Well if you take a look at the patch notes for .15 and the notes-in-progress for .16 you may see some changes that correlate with these bullet points. Now personally, I found this VERY interesting as I was repeatedly condescended to by the devs and "more seasoned" players for daring to question their perfect game design with my uninformed suggestions based on ignorance and misunderstanding due to inexperience. And yet, in such a short time, the powers that be have suddenly gone from criticizing these suggestions to actively implementing them.

Now I don't expect any apologies or any such things. I don't even expect those involved to admit that any of this happened or that they could ever possibly be wrong(many of them have quite fragile egos). I also expect this thread to be locked before too long because of some technical violation they can drum up to silence me. I just wanted to remind people that it doesn't require someone to make thousands of posts to understand the game and be able to make suggestions about it(especially when that person happens to design games for a living *cough*). And that you shouldn't completely shut out someone who is trying to offer friendly advice because they are newer to the forums than you. So go ahead, flame me, call me a liar, lock the thread, do what you gotta do. Doesn't change the reality though, however much you want me to be wrong.

[cerebovssquire]

Welcome back, we missed you!

[and into]

I also expect this thread to be locked before too long because of some technical violation they can drum up to silence me.

*scrolls up, sees this is posted in CYC*

*shrugs*

Oh, also, this:

[TeshiAlair]

<personal-attack>
It's almost as if the fact that you're an asshole overshadows the fact that you make intelligent points.

Fancy that.
</personal-attack>

[damiac]

Well... I know people can be a bit prickly around here from time to time, but I don't think this 'I told you so assholes' post is going to help in the future, if your future goals include people listening to you.

I pretty much agree with all the stuff you listed there, but lots of people agree with those things. It's usually the proposed solutions that spark disagreement, along with the fact that some people are naturally contrarian(This is a word, right?). And if this post is indicative of your debate style, I would probably be hard pressed to agree with you even if you were arguing that sugar is sweet and lemons are sour.

Anyway, welcome back, hopefully you'll have a better experience here this time around.

[Lasty]

This my new favorite thread.

[tasonir]

Can you link to the first thread? I'd love to read it too.

I think a lot of those things, especially removing item destruction, were pretty commonly brought up and had pretty widespread support. I certainly love it being gone. Ghouls, weight limits, distortion being ID'ed on sight were smaller issues, but still pretty nice simplifications.

What really impressed me lately in trunk is all of the new transmutations/translocations spells. I have a hydra former going now, but I really want to start picking up the new translocations spells...

[twelwe]

thanks and yes nessonet i remember you. those are good ideas and although most of them i came up with first i do support you having tried to further them. lets be frank the devs hate on good idea posts so they don`t get thanked and they drop to the second, third, fourth page which no one and i mean no one reads, then they steal the ideas. if you ever want to program for me i have a job for you, but you have to come up with original ideas instead of just stealing and reposting mine without credit.

[njvack]

let's be fair; I came up with those ideas way before anyone, I just didn't tell anyone

[Greyr]

OP, Nobody cares.

[XuaXua]

Get in line, OP. The dev's will get on your stuff once they are done with the enhancements I demanded first.

[Hirsch I]

oh my god, you are a genius! like Twelwe but better! promote this person to dev immediately, or I will get mad and pout! and not a moe anime pout, but a 100kg bearded smelly gay man pout. you dont want to see that.

[Siegurt]

The original thread:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12566&p=176423

(Was started in May of this year, FWIW)

[tasonir]

The original thread:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12566&p=176423

(Was started in May of this year, FWIW)

From that thread:

Unfortunately for me, Tasonir posted an entire thread about this a few days ago, which is linked here. But it is still a major problem that I’d like to address. Damage varies too much in this game, with many damages being based off a single die roll that can go from 1 to ridiculously large numbers.

He agrees with me! Ness is right! Ness is a savior of our times! The second coming shall be remembered and embraced for generations to come!

[Greyr]

MarvinPA summed that thread up nicely.
Also, I'm realizing how pouty this thread is.

But to a certain extent I can see where the OP is coming from. The Tavern is sorta known for it's saltiness, and less familiar Tavern spelunkers might be taken back by the reactions of fellow Taverners on a simple opinion. In the end though, the internet is the internet. Get over it.

[Abominae]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1h11xZ86MY

[XuaXua]

Is this another "troll" banned from IRC that and into allowed in to play-post?

[Insular Community]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[dpeg]

I do remember and I don't miss you.

Of the changes you list in your current posting, several were not referred to in your previous one. The exception is (un)disclosed distortion brands. From the tone of your posting I infer that you claim ownership for the ghoul and demigod changes -- it's preposterous, but it doesn't matter. (The first was an offshoot from another change, the latter came from a player patch moving automatic level stat increases into manual ones, an actual design idea completely absent from your drivel about demigods back then.)

You had a previous posting with generally pretty bad ideas, explained them even worse, and reappear with a smug new posting declaring you as design tsar, on the grounds of changes definitely not yours in any sense. It is true that developers read the forum and ideas from here may be discussed and implemented; the most recent occurrence is today, when crate's suggestion of reducing confusion duration got in. Thanks to anyone, and crate especially for this particular one.

Better off without you.
dpeg, ludophile layman, designer dilettante and all-around amateur

[I managed to not post in the previous round of nonsense, but I really believe that the forum is better off with our standard share of craziness --players and developers alike--, than this self-centered, loudmouthed specimen.]

[duvessa]

Is this another "troll" banned from IRC that and into allowed in to play-post?

no, he only trolls tavern
i highly recommend his post history, in particular pyromancer, beogh, and demigods.

[scorpionwarrior]

Being able to point out problems and being able to find a way to solve them in a satisfactory manner are two very different things. Ness, all you're doing is bragging about having done the easy work - these are all things that many players had been pointing out for years.

[Sar]

my favourite was "mummies have the worst MR in the game"

That said, having wrong opinions and being loud about them doesn't make one a troll. There are other words for that!

[Greyr]

There are other words for that!

Yeah. "Is" and "Greyr"

[PleasingFungus]

my favourite was "mummies have the worst MR in the game"

In complete fairness, the difference between racial MR values is relatively subtle in-game, since the per-level difference is much, much smaller than the smallest value that's displayed. Even if you played mummies, you could easily fail to notice that you got your first racial MR+ some levels sooner than a human would - especially if you splat before you get that!

on the other hand, using the wiki as a basis for design suggestions is inexcusable.

[scorpionwarrior]

Is this another "troll" banned from IRC that and into allowed in to play-post?

I dont get why he named himself after ness, this guy is way more of a pokey

[Sar]

I don't know PF, I prefer to keep an eye on my MR and the difference between human MR and mummy MR is noticeable, if you ever managed to get your mummy far enough. An endgame mummy is an obvious example as it reaches the comfortable amounts of MR without any items; an midgame mummy only needs one MR item to be mostly safe from Hexes (noticeable when you are doing Vaults, for example, and aren't getting marked). Mummy MR-per-level is what, 5 to standard 3? Wiki still lists it as 3.

Edit: this page http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Magic_resistance says their MR-per-level is 5 (as Nagas'), which is almost twice above the baseline and is pretty good (as I can tell from my Naga experiences).

[johlstei]

[notcluie]

remember, y'all are talking to a person with opinions such as

Why does the trunk exist?

There is in fact, believe it or not, a middle ground between the 2. It is possible to get more than 3 (runes), and still not go through the boring areas. My other point was that in a game where you get 3, there is no reason not to get 4.

Nagas are very slow, that is very bad

A very one-dimensional approach to a very complex game. By this logic, Felids should be undisputedly in the top 3, yet by this listing they are among the lowest...even lower than Nagas.

Torment is extremely poorly designed

CheiNaga is a strong and natural coupling.

you want more than just AC/EV out of your armors(like resists and stats

welcome back nessonett, we missed you and your master debating skills

e: okay this is probably very offensive

[daggaz]

Apropos pyromancer, this might be the funniest thing you ever said, duvessa..

the "mancer" means it refers to divination by flames. so like, back in the feudal ages, you could hire a guy to wear some robes and stare at a burning pig scrotum, and after a few minutes he'd tell you what kingdom to invade next

[tasonir]

CheiNaga is a strong and natural coupling.

I don't see anything wrong here. Of course, this may be because Chei is a strong and natural coupling to any race, but hey.

[notcluie]

yeah it's nagas that are bad, not chei

[and into]

Yep, if there was one thing this thread really needed, just to round it out, it's another flare-up of the never-ending chei/naga debate.

[XuaXua]

I prefer a Mummy Centaur of Naga.

[tasonir]

If any component of your combo is Centaur, it's an overpowered combo, mummy or not.

[njvack]

If any component of your combo is Centaur, it's an overpowered combo, mummy or not.

that's why my centaurs all rush necromut

[damiac]

While the OP may have made himself look bad in the one post he made, he's not the only one to act like a douche in this topic.

"Remember that time he was wrong? What an asshole1?!!?!?! ROFLMAO"

Stay classy tavern...

[Greyr]

While the OP may have made himself look bad in the one post he made, he's not the only one to act like a douche in this topic.

"Remember that time he was wrong? What an asshole1?!!?!?! ROFLMAO"

Stay classy tavern...

There's being wrong, then there's being wrong and following it up with white-hot arrogance.

See:

no, he only trolls tavern i highly recommend his post history, in particular pyromancer, beogh, and demigods.

[notcluie]

i love how OP just posted some wall of text then just left you guys to get mad at it
10/10 a* troll would bang

[Greyr]

i love how OP just posted some wall of text then just left you guys to get mad at it
10/10 a* troll would bang

Oh that's where I remember your handle from. Every Steam review ever!

[duvessa]

While the OP may have made himself look bad in the one post he made, he's not the only one to act like a douche in this topic.

"Remember that time he was wrong? What an asshole1?!!?!?! ROFLMAO"

Stay classy tavern...

99.9% sure getting these responses is the entire reason he posted it

[tasonir]

While the OP may have made himself look bad in the one post he made, he's not the only one to act like a douche in this topic.

"Remember that time he was wrong? What an asshole1?!!?!?! ROFLMAO"

Stay classy tavern...

You missed the part where I wholeheartedly endorsed OP's endorsal of my idea. Really, I think that's a valuable contribution to pointing out how awesome I am. It's true that I haven't taken this thread terribly seriously, and am joking around a lot, but I wouldn't call that douchey!

It's likely the original post was a (successful) attempt at trolling, but when the whole thread is fun for responders as well, I just call that an all around win. It's kind of like twelwe - he may be trolling, but he's good at it

[Hirsch I]

It's kind of like twelwe - he may be trolling, but he's good at it

twelwe is trolling? of course not, who would even THINK that!

[Arrhythmia]

It's kind of like twelwe - he may be trolling, but he's good at it

Pizza tornado is not a joke

[Lasty]

While the OP may have made himself look bad in the one post he made, he's not the only one to act like a douche in this topic.

I think you're being a little hard on yourself here. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

[NessOnett]

MarvinPA summed that thread up nicely.

I'd argue that Marvin's post better summed up THIS thread. Which is to say he used his powers to edit the posts of someone he disliked, then (falsely) quoted that change in an attempt to discredit the poster instead of providing any actual counterpoints.

Which is entirely the point. They would like to scream and cry about how they are infallible than listen to people who actually understand how designing games works.

Guess I should start taking screenshots of all my posts when I make them so I have hard evidence of them being stealth-edited by mods when it happens.



But as I said, I didn't expect this thread to make many friends. I just wanted it to be in your minds when patch .18 or .19 rolls around and we have the inevitable mummy redesign, damage formula remake, etc, etc, and the devs might actually take a piece of that humble pie they so desperately need. =]

[Arrhythmia]

The moderation team stealth-edits posts all the time, it's kind of disgusting.

e: HAHA DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS

[qwesdf]

They would like to scream and cry about how they are infallible than listen to people who actually understand how designing games works.

And you've designed... which games, exactly?

[Sar]

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, by proxy of the incompetent idiots calling themselves "dev team".

Edit: wow I didn't know Arrhy I respect that man but that is probably not the best thread to come out

[Hirsch I]

I think some dev edited Arrhy's comment. the original was just

I SUCK COCKS

good thing I took a print. but I wont reveal it for fear of repression like the kind de dev-Nazis are submitting OP.
I too enjoy occasional cock sucking, there is nothing wrong with it.

[wheals]

MarvinPA summed that thread up nicely.

I'd argue that Marvin's post better summed up THIS thread. Which is to say he used his powers to edit the posts of someone he disliked, then (falsely) quoted that change in an attempt to discredit the poster instead of providing any actual counterpoints.

so that's what marvinpa's been up to all this time