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When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerability
Posted:
Monday, 24th November 2014, 20:28by tasonir
Just an idea I had while playing vampires, so much of their play and resistances varies based on their blood level, that I thought it would be interesting if they could lose their holy vulnerability at a high enough blood level. If this should be full, very full, or only alive, is up to debate. I'd probably say full or very full.
The benefit of this is that it makes it possible for a vampire to play around their weakness if they run into something dangerous, like the ettin I found with -both- weapons being holy wrath. Since it's melee, I'd have several turns to chug a couple of potions of blood and be a lot safer fighting it. Of course you'd lose any undead resistances you might have been using, so it's an interesting choice.
This may make them feel less like undead, or too human when high on blood, but I think it stays within the current design of having two very different sets of benefits on each side of the blood scale.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 24th November 2014, 21:01by Sar
Considering their rMut at low satiation was removed for being "too complicated", I doubt this proposal will go in.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 24th November 2014, 21:15by KoboldLord
Holy wrath isn't really an interesting weakness in the first place, so I wouldn't mind if it was just removed entirely. Holy monsters that had it before can just deal more base damage to everybody; that way non-undead and non-demon player characters don't get left out of the fun.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 24th November 2014, 21:38by tasonir
Sar wrote:Considering their rMut at low satiation was removed for being "too complicated", I doubt this proposal will go in.
the rMut, as I understand it, had a lot of strange cases where they had partial effects of mutations. I don't really know the details, because I didn't play them before it was removed. This change is no more complicated than saying that they shouldn't get rPois at thirsty; it's just toggling an elemental resistance, which is something that happens 5 times already (they gain rC++, rPois, rN+++ based on bloodstates, if I remember correctly). I suppose it does add a 6th case to the list, but the list is pretty much the defining characteristic of vampires. Trading resistances for regeneration based on blood is most of the race imho. This would be one resistance (in the sense that non-vulnerable is more resistant than vuln) that you gain based on having more, instead of less blood, but I don't think that's a problem.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:12by xentronium
From a flavor standpoint, a vampire is a still a vampire even if it's full of blood and "alive." TSO should still hate them.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 02:20by and into
Should vampires become immune to dispel undead when they are Alive? ... Should they be able to worship Ely?
This would be taking vampires in the wrong direction, frankly. There should be less, rather than more, times you would want to precisely fine tune your thirst level. Aside from that, losing a vulnerability is much more significant than gaining a resistance, so they aren't really comparable at all. (Mummy has rF- and rC+, for instance, and no, they don't balance out.)
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Tuesday, 25th November 2014, 04:09by duvessa
I've seen a lot of people expect vampires to lose dispel undead vulnerabilty at Alive. They lose their rN and rPois after all. And if they can mutate at all blood levels then I would expect them to not be vulnerable to dispel undead at any blood level, since, you know, "undead can't mutate" is a hard-and-fast rule in Crawl for everything that isn't a player vampire, including monster vampires, and you wouldn't expect dispel undead to dispel something that isn't undead.
Of course the real conclusion here is that player vampires are the worst thing ever.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Thursday, 27th November 2014, 02:22by Tressol
xentronium wrote:From a flavor standpoint, a vampire is a still a vampire even if it's full of blood and "alive." TSO should still hate them.
From a flavor standpoint, "Alive" is about as far from "Undead" as you can get. Vampirism is a curse, right? So, enough blood "lifts" it temporarily- sounds reasonable to me. Plus, it's just more interesting (imo) if they can ditch the vulnerability with enough blood.
And if Holy Wrath just means TSO hates you, shouldn't anyone following an Evil god be vulnerable? Mind you, I would be totally okay with that.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Friday, 5th December 2014, 18:19by wheals
duvessa wrote:I've seen a lot of people expect vampires to lose dispel undead vulnerabilty at Alive. They lose their rN and rPois after all. And if they can mutate at all blood levels then I would expect them to not be vulnerable to dispel undead at any blood level, since, you know, "undead can't mutate" is a hard-and-fast rule in Crawl for everything that isn't a player vampire, including monster vampires, and you wouldn't expect dispel undead to dispel something that isn't undead.
Of course the real conclusion here is that player vampires are the worst thing ever.
Did you know that they take less damage from DU at higher blood levels???
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Friday, 5th December 2014, 20:12by Hirsch I
vampires are complicated.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Saturday, 6th December 2014, 06:29by duvessa
wheals wrote:duvessa wrote:I've seen a lot of people expect vampires to lose dispel undead vulnerabilty at Alive. They lose their rN and rPois after all. And if they can mutate at all blood levels then I would expect them to not be vulnerable to dispel undead at any blood level, since, you know, "undead can't mutate" is a hard-and-fast rule in Crawl for everything that isn't a player vampire, including monster vampires, and you wouldn't expect dispel undead to dispel something that isn't undead.
Of course the real conclusion here is that player vampires are the worst thing ever.
Did you know that they take less damage from DU at higher blood levels???
I thought you were joking but decided to check the code just in case...
- Code:
// reduce damage for non-hungry vampires
if (you.undead_state() == US_SEMI_UNDEAD)
{
if (you.hunger_state == HS_ENGORGED)
damage.size /= 2;
else if (you.hunger_state > HS_SATIATED)
{
damage.size *= 2;
damage.size /= 3;
}
}
Fuck this I'm not playing this game ever again.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Saturday, 6th December 2014, 23:35by notcluie
i.... i just what. that's a thing? what the actual fuck
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Sunday, 7th December 2014, 05:57by rockygargoyle
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Sunday, 7th December 2014, 17:02by Hirsch I
here, Duvy, you can play the game again.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Sunday, 7th December 2014, 18:20by RBrandon
The funny part about this quirk and the numerous others is that if vampires were first proposed today it would likely be rejected for being over-complicated and tedious. Which happens to be consistent with actually playing them.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 8th December 2014, 17:50by tasonir
I'm officially counting this as another thread I started that worked, regardless of how unaware I was of the actual change
Good thing I won a vampire before this nerf!
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 8th December 2014, 17:53by and into
I saw an offhand reference in an old thread I was looking at for some reason, and according to that, vp got some MP restoration when they vampire-bit enemy elves.
1.) Was this ever true?
2.) Please tell me it is no longer true.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 8th December 2014, 18:03by Lasty
This was true, and is no longer true.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 8th December 2014, 18:12by reaver
and into wrote:I saw an offhand reference in an old thread I was looking at for some reason, and according to that, vp got some MP restoration when they vampire-bit enemy elves.
1.) Was this ever true?
2.) Please tell me it is no longer true.
I don't know if they could ever gain MP by having their vampiric bite attack hit an elf.
Re: When a vampire is full/alive, remove its holy vulnerabil
Posted:
Monday, 8th December 2014, 18:31by and into
Thanks, I was 99% sure it wasn't in the game any longer, but was curious as to whether it ever was. (I must have misread or misunderstood the post and thought it referred to the vp auxiliary attack, rather than feeding on an elf corpse.)