No stairdancing species

[Sandman25]

Stairdancing is annoying so...
Is it possible to create a new species which cannot use stairs when there are hostile monsters in LoS?

Species name - Angel.

Increased mana regeneration (starts with doubled MP regeneration, then it is tripled at XL 13 and quadrupled at XL 27).
Always flies (Gr is vulnerable to LRD, this species is vulnerable to Airstike unless it finds rElec).
Holy bite (aux attack which deals extra damage to Demon/Undead).
Gets ability to berserk when there are more than 5 monsters in LoS, hunger cost is halved. HP regeneration is doubled while berserking or exhausted. Exhaustion duration decreases with XL (normal duration at XL 1, half of normal duration at XL 27).
Cannot worship evil gods.

All aptitudes are +1 except Necromancy which is prohibited. HP/MP/XP are normal.

[Hirsch I]

where is the part that they can not use stairs when monsters are in LOS?

[Sandman25]

where is the part that they can not use stairs when monsters are in LOS?

Before species name. It was my main reason for the species.
Read that question as "They cannot use stairs when there are hostile monsters in LoS, I hope it does not make the species unplayable".

[all before]

I'm finding it hard to imagine a situation where I'd want to beserk with 5 monsters in LOS. Either the monsters are non-threatening, in which case I don't need to beserk, or they are, in which case I don't want to have beserk run out while I'm still fighting them. Maybe for a pack of offensively powerful but fragile creatures?

I assume innate beserk is there to handle situations where you go downstairs and are surrounded. I'd support some other innate ability to compensate-- swift, blink, some weak hex or summons...

Also I like this idea for a species!

[all before]

Another thought: flavor-wise, I understand the no-evil-gods rule but in general I think limiting race/class/god combinations for flavor reasons is annoying (Dith and FE, for instance). Anyway, angels can fall, no?

[Sandman25]

I'm finding it hard to imagine a situation where I'd want to beserk with 5 monsters in LOS. Either the monsters are non-threatening, in which case I don't need to beserk, or they are, in which case I don't want to have beserk run out while I'm still fighting them. Maybe for a pack of offensively powerful but fragile creatures?

I assume innate beserk is there to handle situations where you go downstairs and are surrounded. I'd support some other innate ability to compensate-- swift, blink, some weak hex or summons...

I would gladly support other abilities to compensate lack of stairs, berserk is just a standard tool (which already exists in the game) for dealing with "fight or die" situation. Also I didn't want to provide a too powerful escape/figth tool because the species is supposed to use gods for that (Chei, Elivilon, Zin, Okawaru, Vehumet, Qazlal).

Another thought: flavor-wise, I understand the no-evil-gods rule but in general I think limiting race/class/god combinations for flavor reasons is annoying (Dith and FE, for instance). Anyway, angels can fall, no?

Yes, I think it can be fun to play Angel of Kiku but last time I've been told that flavor is more important than balance. I really want "no stair dance" species, I am fine with it being an Angel who never retreats because of honour or a rabbit who cannot run because of panic mode or whatever else.

[nicolae]

You might like this god proposal, based on similar ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... acking_god

[tedric]

this species is vulnerable to Airstike unless it finds rElec

since when can Airstrike be resisted with rElec?

[Sandman25]

since when can Airstrike be resisted with rElec?

Yes, you are right. It is resisted by "wind resistance" (impossible to get as player)

[fisheye]

At first I thought you were proposing something like Doctor Who's "weeping angels" who literally cannot move when there are monsters in LOS, so they can't stairdance, sidestep IOOD or boulder beetles, or duck behind cover.

Would be an interesting challenge race. Possibly too synergistic with Chei though.

[Sandman25]

At first I thought you were proposing something like Doctor Who's "weeping angels" who literally cannot move when there are monsters in LOS, so they can't stairdance, sidestep IOOD or boulder beetles, or duck behind cover.

Would be an interesting challenge race. Possibly too synergistic with Chei though.

I would not like to remove movement, I like tactical battles.
Probably Chei will not be optimal because it will block berserk, but yes, there is some synergy.
I will try no stairdancing conduct with existing species to see how it works.

Edit. Well, I am not sure it's possible.

  Code:

You climb downwards. Your summoned ally is left behind.
A kobold, Eustachio and Menkaure come into view.
Found two items.
There is a stone staircase leading up here.

  ##!###########
  #....@........
#@.......M....K.
#.....#########
#.....
.....
 ?...
  ..
   .


You can see Eustachio (sleeping), Menkaure (dormant) and a kobold (sleeping).

[nicolae]

At first I thought you were proposing something like Doctor Who's "weeping angels" who literally cannot move when there are monsters in LOS, so they can't stairdance, sidestep IOOD or boulder beetles, or duck behind cover..

That's what the Fungus Form bad polymorph is, basically.

[Lasty]

Strikes me as odd that an angel would have a bite attack.

Overall, I think it makes sense for this conduct to be a god feature rather than a species, since it then becomes available to a wider range of characters.

[Sandman25]

Strikes me as odd that an angel would have a bite attack.

Overall, I think it makes sense for this conduct to be a god feature rather than a species, since it then becomes available to a wider range of characters.

VS has anti-magic bite and is great with holy weapon in extended, I tried to have a species with the same anti-magic + holy combo. Angels should not be inferior to VS in extended, right?
I agree about god.

[PleasingFungus]

Overall, I think it makes sense for this conduct to be a god feature rather than a species, since it then becomes available to a wider range of characters.

I concur.

[Sandman25]

Overall, I think it makes sense for this conduct to be a god feature rather than a species, since it then becomes available to a wider range of characters.

I concur.

This link was provided by nicolae earlier in this thread but unfortunately the page does not mention idea "no use of stairs with monsters in LoS".
It makes strategic travel still possible (and lack of travel is less annoying) and also provides some tactical options (do I want to read ?fear or ?fog and run upstairs, do I want to use consumables to kill currently visible monsters quicker and retreat while there are no monsters in LoS, lantern of shadows etc.)

[and into]

I agree that this kind of idea might work better for a god conduct rather than a species, but an interesting species could be made around the idea nonetheless.

No enemies in LOS to use stairs might cause some additional mild annoyance in cases where a weakling interrupts auto-travel, but that probably would not be a big deal.

Due to certain vaults, I think you'd have to exclude this effect from being triggered by enemies encased in transparent stone walls or grates. (I think I may have had situations in which an enemy in a transparent jail was within LOS of all three staircases...) This would also prevent weirdness when it comes to boots of the assassin or Ash's scrying, etc. Thus the "no stair use" should only trigger when there is a visible and "smite-able" enemy present.

Aside from this, the ability to fly from the start of game would actually be important, as you could otherwise get "locked" somewhere in a manner that could force a quit, which wouldn't be fun.

I would also have the ability apply only and specifically to stairs—sometimes in the abyss you take a portal deeper in order to escape a nasty enemy, which I think is an interesting and tense decision (you go to a tougher area, but escape an immediate threat). Giving permanent innate see invisible would also bypass entirely one potentially awkward area (how would the species be affected by invisible or "partially visible"—antennae, Ash before you get SInv, invisible flightless enemies standing in shallow water, etc.), so I would recommend that as well.

Other than that, I'd go with normal-ish, fairly flat aptitudes across the board, +1 HP and +1 MP, and I like the idea of increased HP and MP regen (perhaps coming in at certain levels), even if that steps on the toes (or, uhh, thorns) of vine stalkers.

So that would leave us with innate SInv, ability to fly, no stair use when smite-able enemies are present, good base HP and MP, flat aptitudes, enhanced HP and MP regeneration. I would drop all the other stuff, as that seems only to decrease player's options, and in a way that isn't interesting.

_______________________

As for the possible god conduct of no backtracking (which is harsher), my main concern would be the increase in inventory micromanagement that could come with that, along with the fact that it requires in advance a level of planning that a new player will simply be 100% incapable of accomplishing, especially since the order you come across branches is (intentionally so) not necessarily the order you are supposed to do them in. Beyond that there are lots of special cases/problems (shafts, hatches, Orc, what happens when you get the Orb?). You could get around some of those problems—maybe even all of them—with special cases and specific god abilities, but then that comes at the price of elegance and an intuitive, easy-to-explain conduct, which I think is important if you want people who are not already very familiar with the game to give the god a spin.

For a god, I think a less radical but (I would argue) much better way to implement that conduct would be to disable temporarily the use of a particular staircase after you have walked up or down it. The length of time the staircase is disabled could either be a given flat or random amount from the time of joining, or it could scale up with piety, which could keep the god from being *too* crippling in the early game.

For tactical purposes, the above would achieve much the same thing as the no backtracking conduct. There would be some interesting strategic considerations that might be missed in my version (e.g., when do I do Orc?), but overall it side-steps the numerous problems and annoyances that would come with a strict "no backtracking" conduct. It would also be a very easy conduct to explain and would not (as far as I can see) require any weird exceptions or special cases at all.

[Lyrick]

what happens when you get the Orb?

You get to abandon him and enjoy a hefty dose of god wrath with your kleptic orb run.

[Lasty]

VS has anti-magic bite and is great with holy weapon in extended, I tried to have a species with the same anti-magic + holy combo. Angels should not be inferior to VS in extended, right?

It seems like a bad idea to intentionally copy a unique element from another species on the premise that this species "shouldn't be inferior" to that other species. Additionally, neither Crawl angels nor any tradition of angels of which I'm aware suggests that angels would go around biting their enemies -- it seems as out of place on this concept as giving them a tentacle slap attack.

I don't particularly think that "angel" is a useful theme for "no backtracking", but if you do want to stick with it in this proposal and also want holy damage to be enforced, it would be more on-theme IMO to just make their attacks always have a holy brand in addition to whatever brands they already have.

[Sar]

oh shit holy bite how did I miss that

(sorry Sandman, no offense but that's really funny)

[Sandman25]

Additionally, neither Crawl angels nor any tradition of angels of which I'm aware suggests that angels would go around biting their enemies -- it seems as out of place on this concept as giving them a tentacle slap attack.

I don't particularly think that "angel" is a useful theme for "no backtracking", but if you do want to stick with it in this proposal and also want holy damage to be enforced, it would be more on-theme IMO to just make their attacks always have a holy brand in addition to whatever brands they already have.

It is common for angels to do extra damage to undead, isn't it? Crawl implemented that by having all monster angels use holy weapon, but I don't think we can use the same approach for player angel. I understand that biting is not correct word and does not make much sense, how about a holy aura? Every demon/undead who is adjacent to Angel gets small damage every turn (Yes, I realize it encourages kiting but it is a nice bonus to help with no stair dancing conduct).
IMHO no retreat is meaningful for Angels, they are brave warriors who are ready to die along with their evil enemies. Also they should be immune to Fear from Eidolon probably.

[all before]

Well, some of the OT classes of "angels" (not really a single term for divine creatures) could have serpentine and/or crocodile heads, apparently, so I guess it isn't totally impossible. But yeah I don't know of any tradition where angels actually bite things.

Seraphs appear in the 2nd-century BC Book of Enoch[5] where they are designated as drakones (δράκονες "serpents"), and are mentioned, in conjunction with cherubs, as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to the throne of God. Two other classes of celestial beings were equated with the seraphim - the phoenixes and the chalkydri (from Greek χαλκός "copper", "brass" + ύδρα "hydra", "water-snake"; lit. "brazen hydras" or "serpents"; described as draconic creatures with twelve wings, leonine bodies and a crocodile's face[6]), who were both described as "flying elements of the sun". In the late 1st-century AD Book of Revelation (iv. 4–8) the seraphim are described as being forever in God's presence and praising him: "Day and night with out ceasing they sing: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come.'" They appear also in the Christian Gnostic text On the Origin of the World, described as "dragon-shaped angels".