On the lack of variety in extended.

[The Ferret]

So, the extended endgame lacks variety.

Think about the first 5 runes or so. The Dungeon and Depths offer a wide variety of monsters. Lair pits you against natural beasts. Orc has a mix of hard-hitting melee, casters, and smiting priest-types. Snake, Shoals, Spider and Swamp are all unique, and offer unique challenges - Snake has poison, melee, and casters; Shoals has a huge variety of unique ranged, melee, caster, and "special" types (water nymphs who flood tiles, sirens and mermaids who mesmerize you, merfolk javelineers who are deadly from a distance); Spider is probably the most boring of the branches, but offers unique monsters like orb spiders and trapdoor spiders; Swamp brings hydras and shambling mangroves and thorn hunters - interesting and challenging enemies. Elf has powerful casters, archers, and blademasters. Vaults are like the Dungeon in their ridiculous variety, with added enemies with awesome unique powers (sentinel/warden/convoker). Slime is ridiculously unique - most of its enemies are seen nowhere else. Abyss brings you the spawn of chaos, and weird monsters like tentacled starspawn, wretched stars, starcursed masses, and worldbinders.

Meanwhile, the last 10 runes are demons and undead.

Vestibule of Hell? Demons and undead.
Cocytus? Demons, undead, a few token water creatures that you should have no problem with.
Gehenna? Demons, undead, some fire creatures.
Dis? Demons and random "iron" things.
Tartarus? Demons and undead.
Pandemonium? Demons and demons and demons and demons and demons and demons and demons and TSO's fortress and demons and demons and demons and demons and demons.
Crypt? Undead.
Tomb? Undead.

It seems to me that this makes extended boring. Demons are gonna do their thing. They're going to hit you in melee, hurl hellfire, and torment you. Undead are going to hit you in melee and torment you and sometimes curse you (which is less interesting and more aggravating). After you've faced 5 runes (plus some optional branches) of wildly different and unique challenges, now you're asked to do the same thing over and over and over again for 10 runes, and if your character is suited for extended and you play carefully, the biggest challenge is remembering to switch out your resistances because God forbid we ask someone with a character that is already, by definition, quite overpowered to adapt to unknown circumstances and face a variety of tactical situations without loading up on the relevant resistance first. Extended is powergaming at its worst: doing the same thing over and over again until you're perfect at it. It's drudgery.

TSO's fortress isn't even that interesting, because by the time you get there, you already overpower the cool stuff. Ophan surrounded me with holy fire? Okay, I'll just walk through it for 2% of my HP. Or stand in place because I'm a caster and I wasn't going to move anyways.

So what do you guys think? Should extended be as varied as the first half of the game? What sort of new and interesting things might be cool challenges?

I wrote down some thoughts for a hypothetical "super extended" DCSS fork, where you visit new branches inspired by the DCSS pantheon (or, hypothetically, visit the gods' abodes and slay all but the one you follow, whatever. The plot is that the Orb of Zot was originally made to unlock the astral plane when combined with all fifteen runes; seems like a reasonable thing for the powerful wizard Zot to do.). Some random thoughts from that, that might be helpful in showing what I'm thinking of when I think about variety in extended:

Whimsy: Xom-themed
"Xom squeals in delight. 'Another plaything!'"

Xom acts on you while you are in Whimsy (probably at a much slower rate than he would on Xom worshipers). Xom attitude and amusement do not exist for non-Xom worshipers; Xom actions are as if you are at neutral attitude and amusement (or whatever is appropriate for balance).

Chaos effects and brands are stronger here (because your character is stronger); just because your MR++ could neutralize Crazy Yiuf doesn't mean it can neutralize the beasts of Whimsy!

• Flaming sheep: a screaming sheep, eternally coated in sticky flame. Spreads sticky flame to everything adjacent to it. Its desperate bleats have a chance to deter the player, applying a "reverse mesmerize" effect - you may only move *away* from it. (might be more annoying than interesting, in which case it could be an ordinary pack animal and people wearing MDA finally get to justify its rSticky)
• Laughing head: a disembodied head hovers in the air, eternally laughing. When it enters your line of sight, it does not move toward you. When it sees you, it laughs even louder, making lots of noise. The laughing has a chance to inflict confusion (check against MR).
• Chaos knight, chaos champion: those followers of Xom who completely embrace chaos stalk Whimsy for an eternity. Wield chaos-branded weapons. Each generates with one or more random resistances, often up to +++ resistance, occasionally with complete resistance - be prepared for that nice flaming executioner's axe to be ineffective against one! (might be annoying, because optimal strategy is to x-v each and every one. Perhaps they can be rare, and announce their resistances in the message log?)
• Whirling rainbow: a quickly spinning, formless mass of every color imaginable - and some colors that don't exist. Moves at normal speed; seeks out and impacts player, inflicting damage and multiple chaos effects (even full MR often succumbs to at least one; they're supposed to be dangerous).
• Xom's Teddy Bear: this greedy but naive soul prayed to Xom to endow him with gold. Xom granted his wish; he is now endowed with a golden head in the shape of a teddy bear's. Unique enemy; no special properties, but c'mon, Xom's Teddy Bear has to be in the game! He should be different every game - this game he's a melee fighter, the next he's a caster.

Eternal Court: Zin-themed
"Zin proclaims: 'Remove this unclean aberration from my court!'"

Things here naturally often have silver weapons (and spells with similar dire effects on the unclean), posing a significantly bigger threat to those who chose to play mutation roulette in the early game.

• Hoplite: An angel clad in silver, bearing a big round shield and a silver spear. Pack warrior. Move adjacent to one another, forming a line, and "join ranks", granting a substantial bonus to AC/SH and keeping them linked until forcibly disrupted. (The bonus ought to be substantial enough to threaten a XL27 character - enough so that you have a good incentive to try to prevent them from joining.) Can be disrupted by forcibly moving one out of the way (Teleport Other, Lugonu Bend Space blinks and Banish, or outright killing one; a sufficiently large hit will force one to retreat as well).
• Silver golem: A construct made of pure silver, charged with keeping law and order within the Court. An ultra-tanky melee creature. (And by ultra-tanky I mean that your XL27 MiBe with 27 in all relevant skills should have a problem with him - the experience should take you back to the early game, when melee-only enemies were still difficult - the first time you encountered an ogre or troll.)
• Choir/chorist: Clad in white robes, this angel sings the Axioms of Law to glorify Zin. Pack monster. Recites the Axioms of Law at you in unison; the power is proportional to how many of them are on screen (like the starcursed mass). One is no threat. Four are a challenge. Seven mean you should run away.
• Beacon of order: A brilliant light contained in a silver cage, it shines its light on the unworthy to highlight their sins. Initially stationary, it hovers at the edge of LOS. It continuously and irresistibly inflicts the Mark status. Moves slowly, so you can catch up to it, if you fight through the hordes it brings to you.
• Architect: [description]. A caster that inflicts silver-tinted spell damage on characters (its spells have an additional silver damage modifier). It may invoke Imprison on the character, during which time its allies regain health. (Imprison should probably be limited to once per encounter.)
• Standard-bearer: This angel proudly lifts the silver flag of Zin's armies, and inspires its comrades by its very presence. Weak on its own, but invokes a Vitalization-like effect on its allies.

The Shining Kingdom: TSO-themed
"The Shining One booms: 'Forces of light! Expunge this unworthy mortal from my kingdom!'"

• Shining soldier: [no description yet]. A pack monster that comes in very large packs - like, "fill half the screen" packs. Not particularly strong individually, but well enough armored to take a couple hits, and they wield weapons of holy wrath.
• Ascendant spirit: The spirits of those who crusade for good come to the Shining Kingdom after death - and carry on their crusade there with redoubled zeal. They manifest around the player character at random intervals and pelt them with holy fire; this makes resting difficult, as in the Hells.
• Angelic trumpeter: [no description yet]. Progressively summons enemies from all over the floor to fight the character. Kind of like the ironbrand convoker, except instead of plopping everyone there at once, it summons one or two at a time for the duration of its existence - like the PC's Recall spell.
• Flying lute: A lute, suspended in the air, playing a beautiful melody. May slow and inflict holy vulnerability.
• Sacred aurochs: The Shining One's favored animal. This large, strong bull packs a powerful charge. A tough pack animal. Like elephants, it can fling the player character back; unlike elephants, it can charge from a distance for bonus damage depending on distance traveled.
• Lamasu: A mythical beast, with a bull's body, an eagle's wings, and a human's head. Higher level mighty guardian beast, comparatively similar to Orb Guardians. Flies quickly, breathes holy flame, hits hard in melee, and has a massive HP pool.

That's all I have written down for now... I think that shows you what variety of enemies I think should be in the extended game. I think past the "core 5" runes (Lair x2, Vault, Abyss, Slime), the game should assume that the player is equipped with both melee and ranged options, so it's okay to present creatures that must be defeated at range. If anything, the extended game has even more freedom to present opponents with ridiculously overpowered abilities, because the player character is ridiculously overpowered too.

Sorry for the long post!

[Sandman25]

Sorry, I disagree with your main point. Lair - living monsters. Snake, Spider, Shoals, Swamp - living monsters. Vaults - living monsters. Slime - living monsters, even Zot has mostly living monsters. Living monsters everywhere, this is extremely boring.
Extended is much better. Tomb - full of monsters which are not met anywhere else, curses are unique too. Glor Vloox - Executioner's spam is unique. Cerebov - Fire Storm (no other monster always has it) + rF- + Briemstone Fiends who use both torment and hellfire. Cocytus - craken zombies, 6 Ice Fiends and a monster with Glaciate/Frozen in a single room. Lom Lobom - electric attacks everywhere + Tornado (no other monster has it) etc. Random panlords are lots of fun too, you never know which spells they have - Tornado? Glaciate? Firestorm? Summon of paralyzing eyes, Ice Fiends? New demonspawns are extremely fun too, especially when they use dispel undead, summon allies or just disable all your spells by -Wiz etc.
All living monsters are alike (vulnerable to torment, draining), all demonic/undead are unique and you have to use a different attack for every type.

[The Ferret]

IMHO the fact that for 3 of the branches you used the final boss is telling. You cut through the mooks until you finally meet a meaningful challenge.

If the early game was "you cut through the mooks until you finally meet a meaningful challenge", I might actually be able to streak!

IMO "everything is living" is not a good critique. The only abilities available to the player character where living vs. non-living status matters are Kiku's Invoke Torment, Yred's Drain Life, and various little things like Vp satiation gain when using a vampiric blade, right? IMO that says more about those particular gods than it does about living vs. non-living status being meaningful to the player. (Yred in particular is known to be sub-optimal for extended, partially because Drain Life is ineffective, partially for other reasons. That's a problem with Yred, IMO.)\

I don't think "but their resistances change!" is really an interesting challenge. Swapping of resistances and attack flavors is dull. It's not a tactical challenge; it's a strategic "challenge" (scare quotes because consulting spoilers and swapping for appropriate gear is not a challenge, it's a grind).

I'm still amazed by the fact that you lumped together Lair, Snake, Spider, Shoals, Swamp, Vault, and Slime as "living monsters". I only wish I could be so experienced and jaded as to see all of those branches in monochrome, as just endless boring non-interesting "living monsters" whose unique qualities don't matter!

[Sandman25]

Sorry, if it is wasn't clear, I was mostly joking. Yet fighting all demons is not bad if they are different enough. I see a huge difference between Hell Sentinel and Ice Fiend, for example.

Edit. This time I read OP all the way to the end and I can only say that I like those ideas, they can result in fun game.

[The Ferret]

Sorry, if it is wasn't clear, I was mostly joking. Yet fighting all demons is not bad if they are different enough. I see a huge difference between Hell Sentinel and Ice Fiend, for example.

Edit. This time I read OP all the way to the end and I can only say that I like those ideas, they can result in fun game.

Maybe it's more of a perception problem?

If I shuffle around some resistances between two creatures, and one is a Swamp Terror and the other is a Merfolk Chorist, I'll naturally feel a difference.

If I shuffle around some resistances between two creatures, and one is an X Evil Word, and the other is a Y Evil Word, they seem like the same damn thing.

Now factor in the fact that game difficulty does decrease in extended relative to early game, and it seems like I'm just steamrolling evil mooks until I screw up.

[Sandman25]

I am sorry for derailing the thread. As far as I know it is common consensus that extended might be more varied so please ignore my first post.

[The Ferret]

Don't feel bad! It's CYC, that crazy mix of "ideas that aren't good enough for GDD" and "DCSS circlejerk".

Sometimes it's difficult to tell between the two!

[Turukano]

Extended is powergaming at its worst: doing the same thing over and over again until you're perfect at it.

Well, it's up to you how much of pan/tomb/hell you want to do. You only need the runes - if you clear all the pan levels that'll be boring indeed.

In my opinion, most of the game is done when I have 3 runes. Then it's just buffing the char (e.g. in the zig) and rushing through extended.

If your char is strong enough for extended and you don't need additional zigs, you can get the pan runes in about 5000 turns or less. Same with hell branches: less than 1000 turns for each rune is really doable.

[Sar]

just because your MR++ could neutralize Crazy Yiuf doesn't mean it can neutralize the beasts of Whimsy!

MR doesn't do anything to prevent chaos effects.

Each generates with one or more random resistances, often up to +++ resistance, occasionally with complete resistance - be prepared for that nice flaming executioner's axe to be ineffective against one!

That's not how elemental brands work, attacking an immune with an elemental weapon is equal to attacking it with an unbranded one, and an unbranded exec axe does a lot of damage.

And by ultra-tanky I mean that your XL27 MiBe with 27 in all relevant skills should have a problem with him - the experience should take you back to the early game, when melee-only enemies were still difficult - the first time you encountered an ogre or troll.

Well most MiBes will just zerk and tab through the ogre/troll without a second though. On other hand, you probably don't wanna encourage grinding to be able to do these hypothetical postend areas, and you have to account for racial and build differences.

[fisheye]

I love TSO's fortress in Pandemonium, it's so different from the other levels. Would love to see more like it.

[Sar]

That Pan level actually belongs to all 3 good gods - the building with cure mutation potions is Zin's chapel, and Ely owns that island and a dragon cave (or caves).