The Tavern

damiac wrote:I'd just like to say, if the same logic that's being thrown around in this thread was used in the development of the game, we wouldn't have HEs, HUs, MIs, HOs, MFs. Because I'm being told here that -1 apts and +2 are essentially the same, so if that's the case we should just remove all these extra races and just leave humans. You want a good melee fighter? HU! Want a good mage? HU! What do you mean you want a strong melee race? Use a HU!

Yes, that's funny indeed. -1 apts and +2 are essentially the same, aptitudes +3/+4 (Mf and Polearms, Ogre and M&F) are very bad to have. So we should have only 2 species: Hu and bad Hu (Hu with -4 in everything) and call it difficulty setting.
Also I am not sure why Translocations and Charms are described as good for casters, they are better for melee/hunters because casters have better use for their MP usually while melee/hunters rarely get to 0 MP.

You don't see how spells that raise your defences and allow you to escape melee engagements are of any use for casters?

Sar wrote:You don't see how spells that raise your defences and allow you to escape melee engagements are of any use for casters?

By the way I tried to play a caster who casted Haste, Phase Shift, Shroud of Golubria, Regeneration, Stoneskin etc. before dangerous fights but it left me with almost no MP for actually killing monsters.

Blink can be useful. I'm not sure why'd you mention Song of Slaying though, it's not even good for tabbers? I guess it was a joke, though.
Out of the spells you named - Haste is unquestionably useful, Phase Shift I like (but it's not necessary), Shroud I never use (though I heard it's good in early game), Stoneskin is only 2 MP, Regen is more for between fights periods. You probably won't cast or need all of those, though!

And don't you caster people use those weird channeling items/gods anyway?

Sar wrote:Blink can be useful. I'm not sure why'd you mention Song of Slaying though, it's not even good for tabbers? I guess it was a joke, though.
Out of the spells you named - Haste is unquestionably useful, Phase Shift I like (but it's not necessary), Shroud I never use (though I heard it's good in early game), Stoneskin is only 2 MP, Regen is more for between fights periods. You probably won't cast or need all of those, though!

And don't you caster people use those weird channeling items/gods anyway?

Sorry for confusion, my post was triggered by this:

At the very least a character doing a lot of blasting to kill stuff will want to invest in spell casting, conjurations, one elemental school (usually), and charms, often tloc

My point is that casters are less likely to invest into Charms and Tloc than primarily melee characters in light/middle armour (true, that casters need to invest less due to higher Int and spellcasting).

(accidentally hit "thank" while browsing the thread; sorry, but I'm officially thank-neutral on this post. --gammafunk)

Uhhh, I dunno, if I have excellent Int and Spc, why would I not invest a bit in Charms and get Haste, Repel, Regen, maybe Swiftness? Why would I skip Blink? Then again, "primarily melee characters in light/middle armour" describes 100% of my casters perfectly. So impure.

Edit: though Blink is one of those spells I get very often but barely use. So I guess I can skip it. I just like having it, though.

Sar wrote:though Blink is one of those spells I get very often but barely use. So I guess I can skip it. I just like having it, though.

I'm the same way with stoneskin, shroud, phase shift, and even haste a lot of the time. I work really hard to get them castable, then barely cast them. Most of the time I could get by just fine on haste potions alone, but the hoarder in me doesn't like using them. Spells never run out!

Sar wrote:Uhhh, I dunno, if I have excellent Int and Spc, why would I not invest a bit in Charms and get Haste, Repel, Regen, maybe Swiftness? Why would I skip Blink? Then again, "primarily melee characters in light/middle armour" describes 100% of my casters perfectly. So impure.

Edit: though Blink is one of those spells I get very often but barely use. So I guess I can skip it. I just like having it, though.

Blink is better for melee than for casters because casters attack at range and if the fight goes down, they can retreat via stairs without adjacent monsters.
I don't like new Swiftness but again it's better for melee when you want to make adjacent monster non-adjacent.
Regen is bad for casters because they don't get multiple small hits as melee character does, they more often get a few big hits because their AC is lower and they are rarely attacked in melee by dangerous monsters.
Haste alone is good for caster but combine it with other support spells and you will want to stop buffing because of MP reasons. But before Haste (level 6 spell) there are level 5 spells ( Excruciating Wounds and Warp Weapon), both are useless for caster (I hardly can imagine a caster where I would cast Warp Weapon and hope for teleport/banish in case of emergency).

@damiac: well I usually have one not-Haste buff I cast, something like Ozo, Stoneskin or Phase Shift, I use MarvinPA.rc that auto-assigns buffs like that to a so za before a fight is kind of a habit for me already.

Sandman25 wrote:Excruciating Wounds and Warp Weapon), both are useless for caster

do you mean pure caster by caster because ah well whatever you are entitled to your opinion and

(also Battlesphere is half-Charms too, isn't it, and I heard casters willing to stay pure enjoy using it for popcorn disposal purposes)

damiac wrote:I'd just like to say, if the same logic that's being thrown around in this thread was used in the development of the game, we wouldn't have HEs, HUs, MIs, HOs, MFs. Because I'm being told here that -1 apts and +2 are essentially the same, so if that's the case we should just remove all these extra races and just leave humans.

Well Mf have that whole water thing. But I think it is more the case that because there is already a good foundation of "normal" species that don't have any major differences except aptitudes (including HP "aptitude"—HE, DE, Hu, HO [also have Beogh], etc.), that any further species need something more "out there" to distinguish them. Sure there might be a few specific game plans where you'd want this or that species to have +/-1 aptitude here or there, but that's not enough to justify a whole new species. If HE, Hu, etc. did not exist, there would be more numerous and larger gaps in species differentiation, even at the level of aptitudes, which would then make it reasonable to add species that are different largely on the basis of apts.

Sandman25 wrote: Yes, that's funny indeed. -1 apts and +2 are essentially the same, aptitudes +3/+4 (Mf and Polearms, Ogre and M&F) are very bad to have. So we should have only 2 species: Hu and bad Hu (Hu with -4 in everything) and call it difficulty setting.

A difference of 2 and definitely 3 in an aptitude is large enough to be noticeable. Nonetheless, having one bad aptitude in a skill that you want to increase eventually (i.e., not right from D1) is not a big deal. Having multiple bad aptitudes in skills that you want to raise, on the other hand, does noticeably slow down a character's development and tends to put you behind on the power curve. (Note that -1 is not a really bad aptitude tho.) Aptitudes aren't meaningless, they just aren't the most interesting way to differentiate species since they don't greatly alter how you play, outside of rather extreme circumstances. For example, if I find blink, control teleport, and phase shift on a Te, I am likely to want to get those castable eventually, despite the poor tloc aptitude. It just takes me longer to get the spell failure down. However, the poor tloc apt does mean that I probably won't want to start as a TeWr.

Sar wrote:though Blink is one of those spells I get very often but barely use. So I guess I can skip it. I just like having it, though.

Blink is really great for those times you round a corner into a scary giant or w/e. Since a "caster" will on average have poorer defenses the more "pure" it is, compared to a character that is not casting so much (all else being equal), I'd think blink is *more* useful for a 24-karat caster (karaster?).

Basically, the worse you are at taking a hit, the more useful spells like blink and swiftness and the like tend to be. I mean, Sandman, going by your logic, blink and swiftness are best for a Troll. I've generally found Trolls don't need them (though of course I'll occasionally pick them up eventually even on Tr, since they sometimes come in handy, even if "handy" here only means "saves me a consumable, so I end game with 12 scrolls of tele rather than just 11"). Sure a conjurer or elementalist or what have you can and often will want to kill stuff at a distance, but sometimes things go awry.

Sar wrote:do you mean pure caster by caster because ah well whatever you are entitled to your opinion and

(also Battlesphere is half-Charms too, isn't it, and I heard casters willing to stay pure enjoy using it for popcorn disposal purposes)

Yes, I was talking about pure caster.
Yes, battlesphere is half-Charms too, level 4, and there is a big step for making pure Charms level 6 spell castable from that.

Sandman25 wrote:there are level 5 spells ( Excruciating Wounds and Warp Weapon), both are useless for caster (I hardly can imagine a caster where I would cast Warp Weapon and hope for teleport/banish in case of emergency).

I disagree with this, because on a caster, the weapon you're going to want is low investment, so short blades are a good pick. Excrutiating wounds and a short blade at min delay = win. Of course, it only works if your going with a lot of necromancy, so it's not something to just pick up because you have a low enough fail chance. Although, to be honest, EW is my go to strategy for short blade users anyway.

Warp weapon... I haven't really used it much, but I'd think it's sort of the same as EW, except it's for those times when you don't have or want high necromancy skill, and you don't mind enemies blinking/teleporting around.

But then, aside from my very first win, it's very rare I play a 'pure' conjurer, I tend to space out and tab it up, and that's a good way to kill off a squishy caster. That's also the reason (at least one of them) that I usually don't win my Chei games. I suddenly realize I've taken 3 or 4 steps toward a dangerous crowd, and almost killed myself in the process, before I stop and think, and then it might be too late.

and into wrote:Basically, the worse you are at taking a hit, the more useful spells like blink and swiftness and the like tend to be. I mean, Sandman, going by your logic, blink and swiftness are best for a Troll. I've generally found Trolls don't need them (though of course I'll occasionally pick them up eventually even on Tr, since they sometimes come in handy, even if "handy" here only means "saves me a consumable, so I end game with 12 scrolls of tele rather than just 11"). Sure a conjurer or elementalist or what have you can and often will want to kill stuff at a distance, but sometimes things go awry.

Well, I love to pillar dance with Tr/VS so yes, Blink and Swiftness are good for them.
My previous character was HaWr who used Blink for shooting sling bullets at dangerous things like Ogres and well, I still disagree that Blink is more important for casters because I cannot imagine a Cj or Wz to fight this way

I agree about Hill Giant emergency though, it is never a bad idea to have an extra way to stay alive.

damiac wrote:Excrutiating wounds and a short blade at min delay = win. Of course, it only works if your going with a lot of necromancy, so it's not something to just pick up because you have a low enough fail chance. Although, to be honest, EW is my go to strategy for short blade users anyway.

If you deal more damage with weapon than with spells, you are not a caster (my definition of caster). You don't cast Excruciating wounds vs dangerous monsters, you just speed up battles vs popcorn, right?
I had a DD fighter with hand axe of pain and battleaxe for Warp Weapon, it was fun indeed but I would not call it caster (again, my definition of caster)

Well, I guess with a 'pure caster' all EW does is move the bar up a bit for what's 'popcorn'. Or, in another sense, you can consider EW to be a range 1 searing ray that can change targets and hit twice a turn. The crappy dagger isn't the thing doing the damage, it's the spell, so you're still doing more damage with spells than your weapon, in a sense.

Warp weapon probably fits a caster better, as you've got a good chance to get the monster off you.

It's true, these spells are less useful for some builds than others, and if you're focusing exclusively on damage at range with conjurations, they aren't the best spells. Still, they're not a bad way to spend your last 5 MP.

damiac wrote:Now, let's say that person finally won with their MiBe, and they say "That was fun being super strong and getting good at everything fast, now I want the spellcasting version of that!

Which is Dg. You are super strong (probably in the top 5 races), and you get good at everything spellcasting-related much faster than Hu, just as Mi gets good at everything weapon-related much faster than Hu.

I would love for HO and Mf to be removed btw.

damiac wrote:Now, let's say that person finally won with their MiBe, and they say "That was fun being super strong and getting good at everything fast, now I want the spellcasting version of that!

Play MfIE.

all before wrote:Play MfIE.

I tried. After DExx it was a shock and I preferred to become a hybrid with Bolt of Cold and Freezing Cloud instead of going for Glaciate because Mf aptitudes ... well, are not that great. Spellcasting -1, Conjurations -2, Ice +1.
Not much better than Gh (-2, -2, +1) and I hope nobody pretends Gh is a great caster and should be used by new players.

Gh has worse int among races (maybe troll is worse, I haven't checked). Mf has enough.
It isn't a small difference

We have races which are just flat out terrible, like Fe

fwiw Fe is actually quite good if your goal is winning, though the way you have to play to accomplish that goal is not something most players enjoy.

Sandman25 wrote:
all before wrote:Play MfIE.

I preferred to become a hybrid with Bolt of Cold and Freezing Cloud.

To me that describes a caster. Mf having not great magic apts is made up for by their having ridiculous dodging and polearms, good fighting/hp, and ice book being a very strong start. They guide a new player into playing a caster "properly," where by "properly" I mean "start out training bookskill then branch into defensive and melee apts."

a real caster only uses mouse clicks

I like to make sound effects when I cast spells

nago wrote:Gh has worse int among races (maybe troll is worse, I haven't checked). Mf has enough.
It isn't a small difference

MfIE starts with 14, GhIE starts with 10. Also Mf can get Int on levelups.

Sar wrote:Running out of MP in a fight is not a huge problem if you have some explored space and the monster isn't faster than you.

This becomes true once you've gained a level or two. Right out of the gate if you're unlucky with a miscast or two or bad damage rolls and the monster (usually a hobgoblin) gets to start chasing you, sometimes the monster's innate hp regeneration overcomes your ability to kill it. (if the first volley of spells fails, I find the best bet is to pillar dance until you get back to full mp, then unleash another volley and pray. If the second volley fails you're probably dead. Pillar dancing to regain hp along with mp doesn't seem to work due to energy randomization, though I don't encounter this situation too often so can't say for certain.)

I'm mainly concerned with the very early game, as a character starts getting items its chances of survival greatly increase and background starts to matter less. Plus after exploring d:1 stairs become a notable option. Once I get a character to lair (maybe clear up to d:10 if lair is found early) I rarely lose with any character, assuming I'm not speedrunning or playing some challenge conduct like tourney banners or Xom. I suppose the definitive way to see whether book or non-book starts do better would be for me to play 50 or so games of each background as a Hu to lair to reduce variance, but screw that.

damiac wrote:Most of the time I could get by just fine on haste potions alone, but the hoarder in me doesn't like using them. Spells never run out!

Yeah that's a problem with the game. Unless I'm playing a character looking to get deflect missiles up, I rarely if ever try to get haste castable because the dungeon provides more haste than necessary most of the time.

SaidTheAlligatorKingToHisSon wrote:This becomes true once you've gained a level or two. Right out of the gate if you're unlucky with a miscast or two or bad damage rolls and the monster (usually a hobgoblin) gets to start chasing you, sometimes the monster's innate hp regeneration overcomes your ability to kill it.

This really depends on your starting spell. The reason IE is considered to be one of the best book starts is because Freeze outright ignores AC and EV and only requires Ice to work - so, it's usually very powerful on turn 1 and only gets better. Pain ignores AC and EV too, and is even ranged!

@Sandman25: Battlesphere is a level 5 spell now:

Code:: Swap spell levels of Battlesphere and Fulminant Prism Battlesphere 4->5 (it is still incredibly MP-efficient for the damage it can deal), Fulminant Prism 5->4 (it deals Fireball-ish damage but requires some setup to work).

Sar wrote:This really depends on your starting spell. The reason IE is considered to be one of the best book starts is because Freeze outright ignores AC and EV and only requires Ice to work - so, it's usually very powerful on turn 1 and only gets better. Pain ignores AC and EV too, and is even ranged!

Yup, love freeze, can't really comment on pain since I haven't played a lot of necros. Though if we're picking specific backgrounds I find it hard to lose when playing as an assassin, having a blowgun with needles right away is very powerful and stealth doesn't hurt either. Only thing to worry about in very early d is maybe grinder, who usually isn't too hard to walk away from due to blinking. Gladiator also works well due to nets though not as well as assassin's blowgun.

Also one other situation that occurs in d:1 I forgot to mention is the early jackal pack, which melee is better suited for. A lvl 1 mage usually runs out of mp before being able to kill more than one jackal, then has to either run and be attacked while waiting for mp to recharge or stand and fight which a mage does not want to do (sk and am don't have to worry as much). A lvl 1 melee character has to be considerably more unlucky than a mage to lose to a jackal pack. However among generalist mages the difficulty of a jackal pack will vary, for example naga mages can poison spit to conserve mp though have a great risk of being caught in the open and dr/op mages can make use of aux attacks , op aux attack+constrict seems to work really well early on.

um you dont fight the whole jackal pack at once lol

Sar wrote:On my HOFE run, I learned Sticky Flame at D:4 and used it to burn my way to and through Lair. I learned Bolt of Fire and L:7 and used it extensively through the game. By the end of my 4 runes game I could cast Fire Storm at 2% failure. Are there stronger Fire spells I am not aware of? Maybe I should've gotten Fire Storm by Orcish Mines? Did I violate my caster purity by grabbing a demon whip in a volcano and getting 12 M&F? Or by having over 200 HP?

You're making me miss Lava Orcs...

crate wrote:
We have races which are just flat out terrible, like Fe

fwiw Fe is actually quite good if your goal is winning, though the way you have to play to accomplish that goal is not something most players enjoy.

Or even know really. At least I haven't cracked that code anyway. But that is true for me of a number of race/background combos.

I was talking about a Hill Orc, though I did have a Lava Orc Fire Elementalist win too. He followed Chei and cast Fire Storm in a Crystal Plate Mail. Had a vampiric lajatang though, so I guess ~not-a-caster~ too.

Sar wrote:I was talking about a Hill Orc, though I did have a Lava Orc Fire Elementalist win too. He followed Chei and cast Fire Storm in a Crystal Plate Mail. Had a vampiric lajatang though, so I guess ~not-a-caster~ too.

This has more to do with Chei than with Hill/Lava Orc.

damn if I had a nickel for every "caster"

No but for real, this went way off topic, and a lot of examples have been provided for book starts that are stronger than fighters, and I hear a lot of people clamoring for a book start as strong as Be. This is probably the funniest joke I've heard all day.

@Sandman25: well, the HO was following Veh and wearing an FDA, and he was actually the one with a much better Fire Storm success chance. LO acquired a vamp laj in Lair so I learned Fire Storm just for the novelty of CPA-storming.

I think it was KoboldLord who argued to me convincingly that the term "caster" is useful in Crawl. KoboldLord, is this thread changing your mind? I know it's serving as an effective counter-argument for me.

ZipZipskins wrote:damn if I had a nickel for every "caster"

i wouldn't get too excited about 161 dollars and 55 cents

Lasty wrote:I think it was KoboldLord who argued to me convincingly that the term "caster" is useful in Crawl. KoboldLord, is this thread changing your mind? I know it's serving as an effective counter-argument for me.

The question is not directed at me but I wonder what do you mean? Book backgrounds have a choice: learn higher level spells (Vehumet or just lucky book drop) and continue training magic or hybridize earlier and train weapon to min delay. The former is a caster, the second is a hybrid. Later casters usually become hybrids too. Is it common understanding of term caster?

A caster is a character who uses nets, obviously. (I believe mikee came up with this definition.)

Sandman25 wrote:
Lasty wrote:I think it was KoboldLord who argued to me convincingly that the term "caster" is useful in Crawl. KoboldLord, is this thread changing your mind? I know it's serving as an effective counter-argument for me.

The question is not directed at me but I wonder what do you mean? Book backgrounds have a choice: learn higher level spells (Vehumet or just lucky book drop) and continue training magic or hybridize earlier and train weapon to min delay. The former is a caster, the second is a hybrid. Later casters usually become hybrids too. Is it common understanding of term caster?

I think a book background that later widens their skill set should be called a braod caster.

I, personally distinguish them by using words other than 'caster'

I say "blaster mage" to indicate someone who relies primarily on spellcasting for direct damage.
I say "summoner" for someone who summons primarily with their MP)
"necromancer" for someone who uses their MP to summon undead servants (yes, there are non-undead raising features of necromancy, but oddly this hasn't been unclear to anyone yet)
"hybrid" for "Someone who does damage in approximately equal measure with spells and weapons, or relies heavily on spellcasting buffs to make their weapons do more damage, or for defense"
I use "basher" or "primary melee-er" to mean "Someone who primarily does damage with melee weapons, and relies on equipment and skills primarily for defense, but may have some spells to compliment these skills"
I use "ranged weapon user" to mean "Someone who primarily does damage with ranged weapons, and relies on equipment and skills primarily for defense, but may have some spells to compliment these skills"
I use "spell-less melee" or "spell-less ranged weapon user" for someone who doesn't use spells, but could.
and I use "berserker" to mean someone who is worshipping trog.

I use "caster" only when I'm referring to a monster who casts spells, personally.

I just post a dump if I need to describe a character, and expect people asking for advice to do the same.

Fmaturge: Uses mostly ranged weapons.
V-mancer: Misc. evocables to summon, for the wins.
Ellipses Mage: Starts as summoner or necromancer, and never learns melee.
Tab Elementalist: **Be
Word Processor: You kill mostly with spells that need to be aimed.
Caster: Uhh... Likes to kill stuff with rods?

I've seen people talk about "casting Trog's Hand". That makes berserker casters too.

http://www.gametracker.com/player/-%C3%9F%D0%AF%D2%A2-%20Penis%20Sorceror/69.162.82.212:27015/

cerebovssquire wrote:
ZipZipskins wrote:damn if I had a nickel for every "caster"

i wouldn't get too excited about 161 dollars and 55 cents

I can buy a lot of ice cream with 161 dollars and 55 cents you know.

ZipZipskins wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:
ZipZipskins wrote:damn if I had a nickel for every "caster"

i wouldn't get too excited about 161 dollars and 55 cents

I can buy a lot of ice cream with 161 dollars and 55 cents you know.

i would live for months with 161 dollars and 55 cents.
I would even eat meat once in a week!

Hirsch I wrote:i would live for months with 161 dollars and 55 cents.
I would even eat meat once in a week!

I currently have about 30 euros, two cans of disgusting ravioli, and a bottle of cheap scotch. On second thought, I too would get pretty damn excited about 161 dollars and 55 cents right now.

and into wrote:Why would Dg work as a class? What would they start with? Would they just start out like Healers, but without Ely? Good stats are not a starting weapon or book. -1 aptitudes to whatever your species normally has will not help you kill the first enemy you see on D1.

If Dg ever became a background* they should get random items and replace Wn

*i dont actually support that

The Tavern

Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?

Re: Make Demigods a class instead of a race... somehow?