Procedural Magic Roguelike ?

[orbisvicis]

Are there any roguelikes featuring procedural magic, suchs as:

Example #1:

Spoiler: show

Prerequisites

• metal bowl, knife
• jackal teeth
  
  • scavange jackal corpse
    
  • paralyze jackal; pry teeth
• jelly flesh
• kobold
• wood

Casting

• Siphon kobold blood
• draw pentagram
• set wood afire
• mix ingredients in bowl and boil contents
• sacrifice kobold
• utter incantation

<result occurs>

Example #2

Spoiler: show

• Fill bowl with blood, preferrably not your character's
• concentrate (consumes time)

result: scry (updated in map) select previously visited area

Example #3

Spoiler: show

• inscribe blood rune on wall with creature's blood (possible your own), reducing HP
• repeat, elsewhere
• utter incantation

result: creature is teleported to matching rune

There are so many different approaches to magic, and I was just hoping to find a roguelike that provides a more involved experience. DC:SS utilizes a very tactical system of magic, but (as far as I've played) it remains select & fire, whereas I'm describing something more sandboxed, such as Unreal World with magic. Per Wikipedia: Magic Spell Systems, magic in DC:SS is a mix of memorization, point-based and skill based while divine worship mixes event-based with powers. I think it appropriates the best of all. I can't argue that magic in DC:SS isn't situational, because the particular spell depends on the circumstance, however I feel it could be more immersize from the player point-of-view, and in the process allow freer playing styles.

I have to admit I've been very influenced by magical frameworks presented in the writing of Roger Zelazny (Chronicles of Amber), Brian Sanderson (Elantris), and to a lesser extent Garth Nix (Seventh Tower). Along this vein I'm not advocating a reagent-only or procedural-only system which could become quite tedious but rather a melange whose emergent combinations provide maximmum flexibility. Merlin's escape from the crystal cave and ensuing skirmish embodies Zelazny's magic at its finest (Trumps of Doom). Thus I invision supporting multiple play styles, for example characters who

• visualize, manipulate and construct complex magical and mental energies (overlay to the current level map)
• hang spells in anticaption of specific combat situations
• wrap themselves in targeted reactive spells
• adapt to and capaitalize on the surroundings, laying runic traps, mesmerizing creatures, and warping time/space (tighten corridor, undo turn)
• work through familiars or daemons

So:

• procedural magic requires time, space and reagents, and knowledge but rewards in more powerful or complicated spells while draining less energy
• hung spells drain MP only when hung, eventually fade, and cost a fraction of the original price to cast
• reactive spells would be interesting tied to a turn based-situation. I imagine some interesting cascading effects like in UFO:AI. Nonetheless they can reduce gruntwork (cast Resist Missile when hit with projectile, cast ice shield when hit with ice attact, summon imp during combat) or save a player's life (blink when HP is low). Possibly consume reduced turn time, for example after casting a reactive spell, the time consumed by your turn is (time of turn's action + ~<=0.5 * time of reactive action). Like "you resist with great difficulty" but more immersive.
• the tactical utility of traps needs to explanation, but a balanced implementation is probably difficult. Should traps drain MP when spelled or when triggered, and in the meantime is there a maintenance cost?

I think in order to derive an emergent system a cohesize underlying framework would need to be conceived tying together these disparate notions. I'm fond of linguistic systems of magical evocation described in Elantris and implemented (crudely) in Arx Fatalis (stringing together runes with noun-verb-adj meanings) and a magical constructs themselves existing in separate plane (Zelazny) which can be manipulated by those with the skill. Procedural magic preserves the meaning inherent to the magical constructs themselves and thus is most powerful - aside from directly working in the magical dimension - while spoken magic though more concise, presents a level of abstraction that reduces the power. In each case - a word, an ingredient, a magical construct - represents a linguistic component, individual components can be woven together to generate spells of specific intent, or backfire with oft hilarious or deadly consequences.

Well I seem to have gone quite off-topic. If any of what I've described rings a bell for other games, please feel free to share. And if any of this was inspiring, well so much the better!

[twelwe]

no there are`nt

[Hopeless]

Are there any roguelikes featuring procedural magic, suchs as:

Example #1:

Spoiler: show

Prerequisites

• metal bowl, knife
• jackal teeth
  
  • scavange jackal corpse
    
  • paralyze jackal; pry teeth
• jelly flesh
• kobold
• wood

Casting

• Siphon kobold blood
• draw pentagram
• set wood afire
• mix ingredients in bowl and boil contents
• sacrifice kobold
• utter incantation

<result occurs>

Example #2

Spoiler: show

• Fill bowl with blood, preferrably not your character's
• concentrate (consumes time)

result: scry (updated in map) select previously visited area

Example #3

Spoiler: show

• inscribe blood rune on wall with creature's blood (possible your own), reducing HP
• repeat, elsewhere
• utter incantation

result: creature is teleported to matching rune

There are so many different approaches to magic, and I was just hoping to find a roguelike that provides a more involved experience. DC:SS utilizes a very tactical system of magic, but (as far as I've played) it remains select & fire, whereas I'm describing something more sandboxed, such as Unreal World with magic. Per Wikipedia: Magic Spell Systems, magic in DC:SS is a mix of memorization, point-based and skill based while divine worship mixes event-based with powers. I think it appropriates the best of all. I can't argue that magic in DC:SS isn't situational, because the particular spell depends on the circumstance, however I feel it could be more immersize from the player point-of-view, and in the process allow freer playing styles.

I have to admit I've been very influenced by magical frameworks presented in the writing of Roger Zelazny (Chronicles of Amber), Brian Sanderson (Elantris), and to a lesser extent Garth Nix (Seventh Tower). Along this vein I'm not advocating a reagent-only or procedural-only system which could become quite tedious but rather a melange whose emergent combinations provide maximmum flexibility. Merlin's escape from the crystal cave and ensuing skirmish embodies Zelazny's magic at its finest (Trumps of Doom). Thus I invision supporting multiple play styles, for example characters who

• visualize, manipulate and construct complex magical and mental energies (overlay to the current level map)
• hang spells in anticaption of specific combat situations
• wrap themselves in targeted reactive spells
• adapt to and capaitalize on the surroundings, laying runic traps, mesmerizing creatures, and warping time/space (tighten corridor, undo turn)
• work through familiars or daemons

So:

• procedural magic requires time, space and reagents, and knowledge but rewards in more powerful or complicated spells while draining less energy
• hung spells drain MP only when hung, eventually fade, and cost a fraction of the original price to cast
• reactive spells would be interesting tied to a turn based-situation. I imagine some interesting cascading effects like in UFO:AI. Nonetheless they can reduce gruntwork (cast Resist Missile when hit with projectile, cast ice shield when hit with ice attact, summon imp during combat) or save a player's life (blink when HP is low). Possibly consume reduced turn time, for example after casting a reactive spell, the time consumed by your turn is (time of turn's action + ~<=0.5 * time of reactive action). Like "you resist with great difficulty" but more immersive.
• the tactical utility of traps needs to explanation, but a balanced implementation is probably difficult. Should traps drain MP when spelled or when triggered, and in the meantime is there a maintenance cost?

I think in order to derive an emergent system a cohesize underlying framework would need to be conceived tying together these disparate notions. I'm fond of linguistic systems of magical evocation described in Elantris and implemented (crudely) in Arx Fatalis (stringing together runes with noun-verb-adj meanings) and a magical constructs themselves existing in separate plane (Zelazny) which can be manipulated by those with the skill. Procedural magic preserves the meaning inherent to the magical constructs themselves and thus is most powerful - aside from directly working in the magical dimension - while spoken magic though more concise, presents a level of abstraction that reduces the power. In each case - a word, an ingredient, a magical construct - represents a linguistic component, individual components can be woven together to generate spells of specific intent, or backfire with oft hilarious or deadly consequences.

Well I seem to have gone quite off-topic. If any of what I've described rings a bell for other games, please feel free to share. And if any of this was inspiring, well so much the better!

One version of Portralis had a system for constructing bard songs that was somewhat procedural. Otherwise, not to my knowledge. Though it feels like there should be one. Of course what you are describing is very Ultima and Might & Magic. So you may want to investigate those older games if RPGs that are not roguelikes appeal to you.

[The Ferret]

In your mind, is part of the game discovering what the different spell ingredients do and how to mix them together to create useful effects, or is it all pre-determined?

The first option seems very interesting, though insanely difficult to implement in an intuitive and non-grindy way. (Unless you want the player to have to mix together every possible combination of ingredients to maximize their spell catalog, kind of like the game Alchemy with a roguelike/RPG built around it.)

The second option seems very spoilery, and boils down to "you require [limiting ingredient X] to cast this spell".

FWIW the second option is basically the alchemy system in The Elder Scrolls series of games. Each ingredient has 4 fixed effects; when you mix a maximum of 4 ingredients together, the resulting potion has all of the effects shared by 2 or more ingredients in the recipe.

[Lyrick]

But reality warping is something not coming to a DCSS near you, maybe ever.

Reagents; if they're common then its like they don't exist, and if they're rare it might encourage scumming. For the purpose of novels its dandy since they'll always have a convenient quantity when they need that demon summoned but in games, especially like Crawl with its 100% guaranteed random, thats not usually the case. Your mana bar will fill itself up after a couple of turns, but a pound of kobold will not crystallize out of thin air.

Hung spells probably encourage tedious behaviour, which is probably bad

Reactive spells are also probably bad. Its like loading your body with traps for the monsters. I can imagine the character like a walking bomb, and anytime something attacks, you explode in its face. Bolt of Cold to the face? Take an Ozocubu's Frosty Retaliation to the knee, vault guard. It's like saving up actions.

Traps are also along the same lines as the last two, except maybe slightly more degenerate since you gotta lure them monsters into the traps.

I can imagine this system in other roguelikes with a less serious stance on balance. But crawl with its design philosophy and everything, not likely.

[orbisvicis]

Lyrick, these are really good points but I'm not advocating any modifications to DC:SS; as it is I think that game is near perfect. Sure my suggestions may imbalance traditional roguelikes but that doesn't mean, starting from the ground-up, that it is impossible to discover methods of creating and balancing a new roguelike using these concepts.

> Hung spells probably encourage tedious behaviour, which is probably bad

Some DC:SS styles encourage similar behaviour; once summoning skill is high enough I tend to travel with a summoned companion just in case around the next corner lies too high a monster and I need a quick escape route.

However I want to reward preparation and integration of various play styles. So before entering, say, Mirkwood, it would be wise to hang some anti-spider spells. Or before entering a wide and unprotected area it would behoove the player to summon an unobtrusive familiar - an insect - to scout the area and report hostile positions so the player can hang the appropriate spells.

> Reagents; if they're common then its like they don't exist, and if they're rare it might encourage scumming.

How tedious and unimmersive is it to sit in a corner and wait for you MP to regenerate? No, I want reagents to be rare to encourage a particular style. Do-it-yourself style characters (battle mages, explorers) will forego the alchemy system for the magical-dimension system or spoken magic because these are viable alternatives. Enchanters - players who prefer to establish a home base from which to wreak havoc upon the level - will use the alchemy system. This will cost them mobility and time for increased spell power and also force them to use a wide variety of magic to collect reagents, possibly by assigned such a task to summoned or mesmerized creatures (thereby reducing tedium).

> Traps are also along the same lines as the last two, except maybe slightly more degenerate since you gotta lure them monsters into the traps.

I think traps are the ultimate tactical utility - forcing the environment to you benefit. DC:SS spells allow setting limited traps, such as surrounding creatures in harmful tiles (pillar of flame) then casting confuse. However traps can only exist in conjunction with other systems of magic. How tedious in DC:SS is it to dance away from monsters until they form a neat square before casting mephitic cloud, or to run out then back in simply to lure monsters into a tight corridor. No, rather, I envision traps working in conjuction with other magics like mesmerize (think thumper in Dune, drawing in the monsters), confuse, distract and so on. Traps would not be forced upon an adjacent tile - rather they could be cast from afar, allowing the character to weigh the odds in his favor before entering a particularily dangerous area.

> Reactive spells are also probably bad. .. Bolt of Cold to the face? Take an Ozocubu's Frosty Retaliation to the knee..
Keep in mind that NPCs can also hang reactive spells, which could make for interesting duel-style cascades. It forces the player to plan before entering a new region. It might also reduce tedium and stupid deaths by allowing the player to automatically heal or blink away on low HP. Clearly though a system like this would require very much tweaking to be tuned into balance nonetheless.


I think variety is crucial to combating tedium and scumming, while providing a means of tweaking balance. Unbalanced game - then tweak the balance of the individual magic systems. Like the carrot and the stick, removing options can rebalance a game, but so can adding new ones.

> Ferret

Well I dislike both options. Alchemy in The Elder Scrools series is effective, but incredibly boring, tedious, terrible, awful, and generally unfun all around. My only experience with your alternative is the game Arx Fatalis which forces you to discover object/reagent combinations. This is, like you say, unintuitive and grindy, even more so because the order of combining ingredients matters (bottle + water but not water + bottle).

Actually I was envisioning mapping the alchmey system via a linguistic approach where each object has a predefined meaning in a specific context (verb, adj, noun, etc):

spoken/engraved: "mesmerize" + "targeted" + "guard" + "master"
alchemy*: "bowl" + "fire" + "mirror" + "blood of creature" + "essence of oklob" + "blood of player" + "words of activation/modifiers"
*order matters
*physically simulated process. Error without "bowl": "the blood spills everywhere, staining your [robe]. The spell is ruined"

Then allowing characters to discover early spellbooks containing a limited quantity of starter spells, as well as later rarer spellbooks describing rarer combinations.

Of course the problem is allowing rediscovery of this system on subsequent playthroughs, similar to how potions and scrolls have to be rediscovered in DC:SS. Language (spoken/written) spell systems don't have this problem because the morphemes are arbitrary (or not understood by the layman), so each new playthrough can use a newly generated, completed different, language that must be rediscovered by both the player and character. The alchemy system, on the other hand, is tied to the meaning inherent to common objects (mirrors, or game constructs that can't be altered), so it can't be completely reinvented. There are other options: force the character to relearn the meaning of "mirror" in various contexts before being able to use the mirror reagent. This could be tedious and frustrating to the player, who already knows the spell but is unable to cast it. So could forcing the character to discover all possible spells via spellbooks before being able to cast them. Removing the connection between the object and its meaning makes the system unintuitive and frustrating. Requiring a unique, different, word of activation suffers same problems as requiring the discovery of spellbooks. It's a problem I don't have a good answer for.


> Hopeless

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Granted I'm really picky about the graphics of older games, but I mean this in a weird retro-ascii-is-OK type of way. For example, I think brogue looks amazing whereas games such as unreal world (graphics) and dwarf fortress (ascii-ish) without custom tiles, are puke-worthy ugly and therefore unplayable.

[headcrab0803]

what if the game had a non-grindy spell creating system

say like you can program your spell in some arcane language

[TeshiAlair]

I think the simplest way to make a more varied magic system is allow simultaneous casting to form new spells.

For instance, Bolt of Fire + Bolt of Cold = Bolt of Steam. Less damage, but blocks LOS.

(Not saying this would be remotely good for crawl, but a relatively direct way of doing creative spells)

[and into]

Not a roguelike, but the action game Magicka had something a bit similar, whereby you created different spells through combos. You'd combo buttons for an element, or combination of elements, and then "shield" or "beam" or "weapon," etc. Some of the combos had special effects, and you just had to memorize many of those "recipes," but a lot of it was fairly intuitive in terms of the spell you get when you combine the elemental parts. So the magic system was at least in part "syntactic," if you will.

Anyway, I think it is possible to have something like what you describe, in a way that is non-spoilery and more or less intuitive once you learn the basics. But I don't know of any roguelikes (or even RPGs for that matter) that actually pull something like that off.