Bikeshedding "Demigod"

[ontoclasm]

exempt from interaction with them.

The flavour isn't necessarily that you're banned from worship, it's that you're too arrogant and self-important to ask for help, or possibly that you and the gods don't get along. And there are plenty of mythological stories where e.g. Hercules and Zeus get pissed at each other, or Hercules goes off to do his own thing and refuses to listen to daddy, or Hera messes with him out of spite. Our demigods are blessed with power by their divine birth, but they've moved out and got a job at Burger King so they don't WANT or NEED their allowance anymore, MOM.

[XuaXua]

exempt from interaction with them.

The flavour isn't necessarily that you're banned from worship, it's that you're too arrogant and self-important to ask for help, or possibly that you and the gods don't get along. And there are plenty of mythological stories where e.g. Hercules and Zeus get pissed at each other, or Hercules goes off to do his own thing and refuses to listen to daddy, or Hera messes with him out of spite. Our demigods are blessed with power by their divine birth, but they've moved out and got a job at Burger King so they don't WANT or NEED their allowance anymore, MOM.

The thing that keeps cropping up though, which was the impetus for this thread (split from the mechanics revision proposal thread) is that by calling them "Demigods", it's implied that they can do things that gods can do besides just "having great attributes", which generates the various "make them like demonspawn" / "give them random divine powers" discussions. Keeping the mechanics and altering the description to fit the mechanics seeks to resolve that sort of confusion.

At this point, I don't care either way how it ends up, but I figured if there's a thread, I can propose an alternate perspective.

[Siegurt]

Hm, I'd always interpreted Demigod's thing as "The gods aren't willing to help you get more powerful, because then you might upgrade from demi-god to god and be another rival in the pantheon, if you're going to get the orb, you have to do it without divine help"

[Lasty]

Yeah, it's pulling together something new, cause no one can really find something that makes sense in this slot without extraneous resists and stuff being part of the flavor. Demigods are a recognizable thing, but they're a poor gloss for "much attributes, no god", because in pretty much any mythology a demigod is more involved with the gods than a regular mortal, not exempt from interaction with them.

There's nothing to say that demigods don't interact w/ the gods; they just don't worship gods. Worshipping your parents isn't healthy, for one thing. Also, think of the labors of Hercules: do you think Zeus was constantly checking in on him during the tasks: "How's moving that river coming along, son? When was the last time you washed that lion pelt?" No, once the gods impose a task on one of their children, they let them get on with it without all this helicopter parenting. "Get the orb, kid, and ring me once you're done with that."

Also, Hercules didn't eventually start flying and shooting magic lasers all over the place -- he was just an absurdly strong dude with a bit of magic gear he found.

[XuaXua]

Also, Hercules didn't eventually start flying and shooting magic lasers all over the place -- he was just an absurdly strong dude with a bit of magic gear he found.

...

No, once the gods impose a task on one of their children, they let them get on with it without all this helicopter parenting.

Hercules also wasn't necessarily born with those strength abilities; they were acquired when Athena decided to try to protect Baby H. from Hera's wrath and had him feed off Hera.

Many other Demigods were exemplary in "attribute" sense, but generally had good luck, major curses, or gifts (acquired or physical) due to active divine intervention.

Aeneas - rescued from death multiple times by divine intervention
Achilles - invulnerability (granted, acquired, not genetic)
Asclepius - so skilled at medical practice, capable of brining others and self back to life
Bellerophon - given bridle to tame Pegasus; cast aside by Zeus due to presumption to join the gods
Dionysus - survivor of various curses of Hera, granted Midas powers, drove kings insane, etc.
Helen of Troy - incredible beauty
Gilgamesh - super strength
Hippolyta - magical girdle gift from Ares
Hercules / Herakles - gained divine powers due to Hera's milk, due to trickery by Athena.
Perseus - You can look this one up
Theseus - You can look this one up

It's that divine intervention, either by a parent deity or an associate of a parent deity, that brings across the notion that a Demigod should have some divine association.
And there was plenty of divine interference, pre-, during- and post- tasks.

[Lasty]

Achilles - Son of a human and a nymph
Asclepius - A god
Bellerophon - Depending on the interpretation of the story, mortal.
Dionysus - A god
Gilgamesh - Not Greek

Even in your good examples of Greek demigods, many of them only get special powers beyond "just being pretty badass" when a god specifically intervenes, and it's not something that happens to them constantly at all points through their lives. Since you mention Thesius, take Thesius's journey to Athens: he doesn't use magic powers beyond being a badass and the magical stuff he finds, and his god-parents don't help him out. Why not assume that retrieving the Orb is such a task as this, that doesn't involve divine intervention?

[XuaXua]

Achilles - Son of a human and a nymph
Asclepius - A god
Bellerophon - Depending on the interpretation of the story, mortal.
Dionysus - A god
Gilgamesh - Not Greek

Glad we're in CYC.
Asclepius and Dionysus are graduated gods, both from a human/god mix. God, "post-orb-ascension".

Asclepius is a Demigod; from Apollo and a woman, had healing capabilities, then was struck down by Zeus. To appeal to Apollo at a later time, some state he was raised by Zeus as a god.

Dionysis has a human mother, but was twice-born.

Bellerophon is commonly the son of Poseidon.

Gilgamesh... so Crawl is strictly Grecian myth?

Why not assume that retrieving the Orb is such a task as this, that doesn't involve divine intervention?

I'm fine assuming that, but will it prevent future debate?

[bisonbisonbison]

Yeah, the problem is not that demigod makes no sense (strong dudes bashing things or being clever, rivals of the gods and not supplicants), it's that demigod as flavor is a bit of a mishmash of known/unknown: there's no high fantasy demigod archetype to refer to and specific examples or thoughts on the god/mortal interface inevitably suggest a lot of things to a lot of people that would unnecessarily expand upon STATS NO WORSHIP.

Attempts to rename STATS NO WORSHIP to "Golem" or another flavor have run into similar "what about ability X" or "why bother" flavor debates, but if crawl had never had Dg, and someone came up with STATS NO WORSHIP as a species idea, I think "demigod" would be a pretty unlikely flavor.

[XuaXua]

Yeah, the problem is not that demigod makes no sense (strong dudes bashing things or being clever, rivals of the gods and not supplicants), it's that demigod as flavor is a bit of a mishmash of known/unknown: there's no high fantasy demigod archetype to refer to and specific examples or thoughts on the god/mortal interface inevitably suggest a lot of things to a lot of people that would unnecessarily expand upon STATS NO WORSHIP.

Which is why I flat out went with "completely new race with a history that their bloodline is explicitly snubbed by all deities due to their ancestor's transgressions, and the uncontrolled power of their lost god gives them great innate abilities." You can't argue that they are anything other than that.

[and into]

I like that Crawl gives its own twist on Demigods.

I mean, knowing nothing else in advance, if someone said "demonspawn" I definitely would not immediately think, "bunch of random mutations over time, otherwise mostly humanoid." I would probably guess "weakness to holy" and "aptitude for necromancy / dark magic"; in other words, I would guess the part about the species that is "flavorful" but also not particularly fun or interesting. Some of the specific mutations are flavorful (hellfire and demonic guardian in particular), but many are kind of out there. Take the sharp spines mut: Beetlejuice notwithstanding, "porcupine" is not the first thing that comes to mind when you say, "spawn of a demon." Nor colorful scales that eventually grant resistances ("Demonspawn and the Technicolor Dream Coat"), or a magical repulsion field. I don't see this as a big problem, it is just Crawl giving its own twist on a concept. And so it is with Demigods.

[Hirsch I]

I think you misunderstand what does Ds spines look like.

Spoiler: show

but pointier.

[Psiweapon]

offtopic:

I think demonspawn scales should go out of the picture completely - to be replaced with whatever else.

Scales are a thing for dracs, nagas, and random mutations; they don't ring any demonic bells.

[XuaXua]

offtopic:

I think demonspawn scales should go out of the picture completely - to be replaced with whatever else.

Scales are a thing for dracs, nagas, and random mutations; they don't ring any demonic bells.

Uhh... scaley demons? Sure does work.

[Nasrudith]

I could see an alternate version of demigods as a sect that attempt to exploit divine power. They worship themselves to gain an infusion of the power of belief. However they are dependent upon it. If they were to worship a god they would have to stop worshipping themselves they would disappear just like any god who lost their last worshipper. Perhaps for names Usurpers, Gnostics, or Ascensionists? Perhaps as a mechanical change for added flavor any divine linked creatures like angels or priests despise them as a living blasphemy.

[XuaXua]

Renaming them to "Disgraced" both maintains the "Dg" and projects the "cannot worship a deity" mechanic.

Obligatory Background:
The Disgraced were once a human clan who worshiped a singular deity. Their deity transgressed against the other deities, and was eradicated. The worshipers absorbed their deity's divine powers, enhancing their natural abilities to such an extent that reliance on learned trades atrophied. Having inherent divine power prevents the Disgraced and their descendant bloodlines from being able to worship any deity.

Obligatory Mechanics Rationale:
There. Maintains the naming scheme, can't worship, enhanced attributes, lamed skills, and removes any "Can I inherit from my parent god?" questions and curbs the "Why can't I be a Centaur/Vampire/Spriggan Demigod?" questions.

[Hirsch I]

looks pretty cool.

[duvessa]

"Demigod" is fine. Demigods can't worship gods because they are half gods themselves, it's the same reason Vehumet can't worship Sif Muna even if she really wants to. I mean what's so complex about this, really.

[Arrhythmia]

"Demigod" is fine. Demigods can't worship gods because they are half gods themselves, it's the same reason Vehumet can't worship Sif Muna even if she really wants to. I mean what's so complex about this, really.

There's plenty of western tradition involving demigods worshiping other Gods. Odysseus, great-grandson of Hermes, is an ardent worshiper of Athena, Aeneas, son of Venus, is repeatedly referred to as the most pious Trojan in the Aeneid, Achilles, son of the nymph Thetis (who is the daughter of a Titan), often pays sacrifice, etc.

e: Christ also worshiped God, but I feel that's an absolute semantic knot depending on what your view of the Holy Trinity and the nature of Christ is.

e2: That all said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the flavour of Demigods as is.

[Hirsch I]

the problem is, it would be cool if we could reserve the name "demigod" for something more badass.

[Greyr]

Aeneas, son of Venus, is repeatedly referred to as the most pious Trojan in the Aeneid,

Yeah, but the Aeneid is just roman propaganda, perpetuating the roman war machine.

So fuck the Aeneid, it's a pet-peeve of mine.

[Arrhythmia]

Aeneas, son of Venus, is repeatedly referred to as the most pious Trojan in the Aeneid,

Yeah, but the Aeneid is just roman propaganda, perpetuating the roman war machine.

So fuck the Aeneid, it's a pet-peeve of mine.

Don't worry, here's some spoilers for you:

Spoiler: show

Doesn't work out for the Romans in the end!

[Greyr]

I found an informative video that explains, in depth, roman politics.
It's actually quite interesting if you have the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRscYVvEFt8

[Lasty]

There's plenty of western tradition involving demigods worshiping other Gods. Odysseus, great-grandson of Hermes, is an ardent worshiper of Athena, Aeneas, son of Venus, is repeatedly referred to as the most pious Trojan in the Aeneid, Achilles, son of the nymph Thetis (who is the daughter of a Titan), often pays sacrifice, etc.

e: Christ also worshiped God, but I feel that's an absolute semantic knot depending on what your view of the Holy Trinity and the nature of Christ is.

e2: That all said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the flavour of Demigods as is.

Of course, in those traditions, worship is a ritual denoting respect, not a way to empower others. If you don't worship Zeus, he doesn't stop existing, he just does something horrible to you. In Crawl, worship specifically empowers deities (c.f. Jiyva), and so it makes sense for beings fueled by belief to some degree not to worship one another, since it would be giving away part of their life force.

Incidentally, I'd assume that if a Crawl god dies, any demigods spawned by them have half their DNA stop existing, and die shortly thereafter from what is effectively severe radiation poisoning.

[Sar]

fr: killing TRJ as a demigod carries a small chance to instakill player

[damiac]

Only Jiyva dies upon one of his followers dying, that being TRJ (Even if Dissolution isn't dead). There isn't a single enemy worshipper of Ru, yet he continues to exist.

"Demigod" is fine. Demigods can't worship gods because they are half gods themselves, it's the same reason Vehumet can't worship Sif Muna even if she really wants to. I mean what's so complex about this, really.

Yeah, it's fine because there's no other example of that, so obviously we would naturally make that assumption, despite the fact that other examples of demigods, like in roman myths, being active worshipers, and receiving divine favor. Plus Vehumet is a god, not a demigod, so that example doesn't really make sense (And how do you know Vehumet can't worship Sif anyway?)

I don't really care about the name, but to suggest that the name 'Demigod' somehow conveys 'A strong guy that can't worship gods' is silly. Nobody would make that assumption upon reading the name, because crawl invented that version of Demigods. Of course, the species description tells you you can't worship a god anyway, so I don't think anyone's getting tricked.

EDIT: I did the quote thing wrong. Stupid internets

[Sar]

There isn't a single enemy worshipper of Ru

The world outside the Dungeon exists for lore purposes. Jiyva dies because it is a "forgotten god" that nobody on the outside remembers.

[Arrhythmia]

Of course, in those traditions, worship is a ritual denoting respect, not a way to empower others. If you don't worship Zeus, he doesn't stop existing, he just does something horrible to you. In Crawl, worship specifically empowers deities (c.f. Jiyva), and so it makes sense for beings fueled by belief to some degree not to worship one another, since it would be giving away part of their life force.

Worship doesn't effect the ontology of Gods in Crawl. First, Dissolution is another intelligent worshiper of Jiyva, in fact he's more intelligent than TRJ is, but his continued worship or lack thereof has no impact on Jiyva's continued existence. If you kill TRJ and leave Dissolution alive, Jiyva still dies. If you kill TRJ, and Dissolution too for the sake of argument, while worshiping Jiyva and then renounce Jiyva, Jiyva still hangs on to existence to punish you, despite the proposed non-existence of any worshiper of Jiyva. These situations are counterexamples to "existence of worship implies existence of a Deity" and "existence of a Deity implies existence of worship" respectively. There's no reasonable conclusion you can draw from the text of crawl about how worship and deities cosmologically interact, especially not from Jiyva.

[Hirsch I]

jiyva dies because she lost the only worshipper that can create various slimes.
dissolution can summon eyes, but he can not create slimy life. TRJ, and you, if following Jiyva, can.
she does not die, just abandons her influence in our world, turning her attention to worlds that still serve to his obscure objetives.