Bikeshedding "Demigod"


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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 18:38

Bikeshedding "Demigod"

{Mod Note: Split off from GDD. This thread is for discussing other names for Demigod.}

Good post.

Is there dev opposition to renaming the current Demigod to Golem? Or at least to bikeshedding (in CYC?) the name for a race of diety-less constructs which won't generate the current set of Dg threads?

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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 19:16

Re: Demigods and their stats

Demigods should be awesome because they are demigods. It's a no-brainer.
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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 20:03

Re: Demigods and their stats

bisonbisonbison wrote:Good post.

Is there dev opposition to renaming the current Demigod to Golem? Or at least to bikeshedding (in CYC?) the name for a race of diety-less constructs which won't generate the current set of Dg threads?


Bikeshedding to "Golem", ignoring that it traditionally comes from a religious background, is a good fix.
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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 21:36

Re: Demigods and their stats

I would point out that golems are usually non-living (and always are in Crawl), so renaming demigods to golems is going to generate a lot of questions as to why they don't have the all resistances that the few remaining golems have. So renaming them to that is probably a bad idea - player/monster symmetry may not be the most important thing in the world, but there's no reason to break it if you don't have to, especially when it's likely to cause confusion.
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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 22:01

Re: Demigods and their stats

Rename Demigods to "Pushy Atheists"
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Post Wednesday, 10th September 2014, 22:01

Re: Demigods and their stats

why do you think the golem was suggested to be "diety-less"

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Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 02:27

Re: Demigods and their stats

ion_frigate wrote:I would point out that golems are usually non-living (and always are in Crawl), so renaming demigods to golems is going to generate a lot of questions as to why they don't have the all resistances that the few remaining golems have.


"Flesh golem".
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Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 17:35

Re: Demigods and their stats

After careful meditation on flavor, fluff and rebranding: rename Demigod to Innocent.
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Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 18:17

Re: Demigods and their stats

bisonbisonbison wrote:After careful meditation on flavor, fluff and rebranding: rename Demigod to Innocent.


"Draft Dodgers"
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Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 20:03

Re: Demigods and their stats

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Post Thursday, 11th September 2014, 21:55

Re: Demigods and their stats

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 13:36

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

This was actually a good bikeshedding thread till it fell to crap. Golem, nee Flesh Golem were legit.
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 14:23

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Golems! Sweet! So, the species will become immune to negative energy, elec, poison, fire, cold and magic. Wait, they're flesh golems, so . . . same list except elec, fire and cold? Either way, I don't see a balance issue.

Or we could give them a name that implies a stronger-than-human, intelligent natural creature that has a special relationship with religion. Just pitching here, but how naming them demigods?
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 14:58

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Lasty wrote:Just pitching here, but how naming them demigods?


Demigods? Great! So, they are part of the divine pantheon of their parent god(s) and derive some inherited abilities from them? That's so cool!
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 15:15

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

FWIW I would be excited about the possibility of playing as a golem, much less so about a flesh golem. It's like...check out this unique, awesome, magic robot species! ...but we didn't want it to be too unique or awesome so we made it just like everything else.

If anything, I always thought the most golem-like existing species is deep dwarves. Durable, but with no natural healing...negative energy resistance, an affinity for artifice with the ability to recharge tools from an innate power supply...sounds like a robot to me. "Hemophiliac dwarf" flavor never really did anything for me.
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 16:13

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

I would go with a simple name focusing on the absence of a relationship with god: Forsaken.

A race of strong bodied and stronger willed humanoids who have turned their backs on matters of religion.

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 17:40

Re: Demigods and their stats

Greyr wrote:Rename Demigods to "Pushy Atheists"

Dawkinses?
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 17:49

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

On a more serious note, what about "Ubermensch"?
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From Wikipedia (replace "Christianity" with "the Crawl pantheon"):
  Code:
Nietzsche introduces the concept of the Übermensch in contrast to the other-worldliness of Christianity: Zarathustra proclaims the Übermensch to be the meaning of the earth and admonishes his audience to ignore those who promise other-worldly hopes in order to draw them away from the earth.[5][6] The turn away from the earth is prompted, he says, by a dissatisfaction with life, a dissatisfaction that causes one to create another world in which those who made one unhappy in this life are tormented. The Übermensch is not driven into other worlds away from this one.

Zarathustra declares that the Christian escape from this world also required the invention of an eternal soul which would be separate from the body and survive the body's death. Part of other-worldliness, then, was the abnegation and mortification of the body, or asceticism. Zarathustra further links the Übermensch to the body and to interpreting the soul as simply an aspect of the body.
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 17:53

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

WalrusMcFishSr wrote:FWIW I would be excited about the possibility of playing as a golem, much less so about a flesh golem. It's like...check out this unique, awesome, magic robot species! ...but we didn't want it to be too unique or awesome so we made it just like everything else.


Which is why naming them "Golem" is inappropriate since it brings up other concepts requiring mechanics that aren't in scope for the species, but if it had to be Golem, then "Flesh Golem" would at least be closer to the mechanics that are already in play (or in scope) for the species.

I like Tasonir's "Forsaken" suggestion a lot, but I can also see someone dropping the "a" and substituting "i" for "e".
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 19:53

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 19:56

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 20:01

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

I think the thread called "a useful high technology device" is better than this one.
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Post Friday, 12th September 2014, 20:20

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Yeah but that thread has poetry
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Post Saturday, 13th September 2014, 19:03

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

XuaXua wrote:I like Tasonir's "Forsaken" suggestion a lot, but I can also see someone dropping the "a" and substituting "i" for "e".


Foreskin.

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Post Saturday, 13th September 2014, 20:27

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

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Post Sunday, 14th September 2014, 05:36

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

bulky smart agile strong giants

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Post Sunday, 14th September 2014, 13:19

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

I guess the thing is that calling a race which its main conduct is that you can have no divine relation demigod is wierd

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Post Sunday, 14th September 2014, 19:02

Re: Demigods and their stats

ion_frigate wrote:I would point out that golems are usually non-living


According to their origin legends in Jewish folklore, golems are very much alive due to the use of the name of God in their creation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem
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Post Sunday, 14th September 2014, 22:41

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

How about: Cretin

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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 00:36

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

headcrab0803 wrote:I guess the thing is that calling a race which its main conduct is that you can have no divine relation demigod is wierd
so weird that it took 17 years for someone to mention it
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 04:05

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

That's pretty weird
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 15:25

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

It's fun to try to find the precise meaning of fluff that would justify "big stats, no god".

To me there appear to be three categories of possible fluff:

Artificial Beings
Disinterested/Ignorant
Divinely punished/shielded

Artificial Beings
Golem / Flesh Golem
Automata
Idol
Guardian

Disinterested/Ignorant
Homunculi
Pushy athiest
Innocent
Cretin
Untouched
Soulless
Hollow

Divinely punished/shielded
Exile
Outcast
Pariah
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The primary issue is, of course, unintended extension of the design to accomodate the flavor, just like the dg arguments. Are golems resistant to x? Are homonculi small? But whatever.

I've added a few more of my own ideas, any other names?
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 15:53

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Pariah might work well if the "Demigod" concept was changed to something like:

The Pariahs are an ancient race descended from the blessed cultists who worshiped the divine deity, Buorv the Mountainous. After committing a crime of chaos, Buorv was eradicated by the other lords of order. On Buorv's destruction, his godly power leeched downward, infecting the bloodlines of his followers, strengthening their core beings and granting them destiny-altering powers, while leaving them and their descendents shunned by all divinity.

Could go further, possibly connecting Buorv''s erasure to Ashenzari's binding...

{insert mechanical description here}

edit: changed to be more specific about the ability to guide their own destiny (the controlled distribution of attributes), and removing the comment which implied they are capable of hiding from the divine.
Last edited by XuaXua on Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 19:12, edited 4 times in total.
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Post Monday, 15th September 2014, 16:28

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

XuaXua wrote:Pariah might work well.

The concept could be changed to something like:

The Pariahs are an ancient race descended from the blessed cultists who followed divine Buorv the Mountainous. After committing a crime of chaos, Buorv was erased from reality by the other lords of order. As energy cannot be destroyed, only redirected, his essence was distributed to his worshipers, casting them and their descendents fully from the sight of all divinity. Though under a permanent exile from divine worship, their innate connection to the ancient power of their lost god allows Pariahs to shape their destiny through mastery and guidance over their bodily attributes.


Could go further, possibly connecting Buorv''s erasure to Ashenzari's binding...


This makes me wonder if a Crawl lore thread would be worthwhile. Some Dark Souls-esque story telling would be neat.

For those of you who don't know, Dark Souls is a game that tells a good 90% of it's lore through item descriptions. Now, I'll be the first one to admit that Crawl doesn't really need lore and, in fact, this idea may be a little silly, but still. Adding some sort of lore description to unrands and expanding on the (already sufficient) unique descriptions might be appropriate.

eg the demon blade "leech" was blessed by god X because god Y did something blah blah blah, you get the point.

As of right now we have some nice tie ins with Wizlabs and Randarts, so really what I'm proposing here is just more minimally invasive stuff like that.
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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 12:46

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

We could call them Mountain Dwarves:

A species so hated that it is abandoned not just by the gods but even the game's developers. Due to their dwarven obstinacy they refuse to give up and evolve incredible stats in an effort to survive in a cruel and hostile world, then try to insinuate themselves back into the game in another form.
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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 14:11

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Jeremiah wrote:We could call them Mountain Dwarves:

A species so hated that it is abandoned not just by the gods but even the game's developers. Due to their dwarven obstinacy they refuse to give up and evolve incredible stats in an effort to survive in a cruel and hostile world, then try to insinuate themselves back into the game in another form.


That was kind of "Buorv the Mountainous"'s entire deal, just slightly less blatant.
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Post Tuesday, 16th September 2014, 17:45

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

XuaXua wrote:Pariah might work well.

The concept could be changed to something like:

The Pariahs are an ancient race descended from the blessed cultists who followed divine Buorv the Mountainous. After committing a crime of chaos, Buorv was erased from reality by the other lords of order. As energy cannot be destroyed, only redirected, his essence was distributed to his worshipers, casting them and their descendents fully from the sight of all divinity. Though under a permanent exile from divine worship, their innate connection to the ancient power of their lost god allows Pariahs to shape their destiny through mastery and guidance over their bodily attributes.


Could go further, possibly connecting Buorv''s erasure to Ashenzari's binding...


The Paria are an ancient species, the powerful spawn of one Buorv the Mountainous, she-king of a lost subterranean race. Humanoid in shape, and fit for any type of adventure, the Paria are gifted with vast potential and greater pride. No god will sanction their worship, so the Paria must survive on the strength of their bodies, their formidable wits, and the meager loot of their adventures.

Paria have excellent attributes (Str, Int, Dex) and are extremely robust; they can also draw on great supplies of magical energy. On the downside, they advance more slowly in experience than any other race, gain skills slightly less quickly than Humans and, due to their ancestry, cannot worship the various gods and powers available to other classes of being.

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Post Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 17:41

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Anyone else want to weigh in?
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Post Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 17:49

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

bisonbisonbison wrote:she-king of a lost subterranean race

gods in crawl are genderless.
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Post Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 17:53

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Shit. Here it comes.
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Post Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 19:09

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

bisonbisonbison wrote:Anyone else want to weigh in?


I edited the post you quoted. By changing it from worshiping a god to worshiping some sort of king, we sort of lost the reason behind the other gods abandoning the entire race.
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Post Wednesday, 17th September 2014, 23:40

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

They could be renegade Orb Guardians who were exiled from the dungeon because they tried to steal the orb rather than defend it. Now they are trying to get back to the realm of Zot to complete the theft.

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Post Thursday, 18th September 2014, 00:24

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Jeremiah wrote:They could be renegade Orb Guardians who were exiled from the dungeon because they tried to steal the orb rather than defend it. Now they are trying to get back to the realm of Zot to complete the theft.



I think by 'steal' you mean 'make love to'.

Note that love making is genderless.
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Post Friday, 19th September 2014, 18:32

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Jeremiah wrote:They could be renegade Orb Guardians who were exiled from the dungeon because they tried to steal the orb rather than defend it. Now they are trying to get back to the realm of Zot to complete the theft.


I actually think this is kind of genius for flavor. They worship only the orb. They get stronger and stronger as they approach it (by leveling up).

You'd probably want to just have to reflavor the monster version to be Prometheus-type nude dudes instead of limbs on a blob so that things like armor and equipment and such make sense for the player version.

edit: all the monsters say is "ORB!"
Last edited by bisonbisonbison on Friday, 19th September 2014, 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 19th September 2014, 19:28

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

(tbh I like this idea too)
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Post Sunday, 21st September 2014, 23:15

Re: Bikeshedding "Demigod"

  Code:
The Guardians are a powerful species of servile humanoids, tasked since their creation with safeguarding the treasures and wonders of other races.  In the dungeon, they have are in the thrall of the Orb of Zot, and worship it to the exclusion of all else.  They will use every means at their disposal to retrieve the Orb and share its majesty with the world above.

Strong of limb, quick-witted and agile, Guardians are adaptable to any situation.  They are blessed with large reserves of health and magic, and as they grow in experience, Guardians may allocate their attributes at will, filling any niche from warrior to mage.  Due to their devotion to their Orb, the worship of deities is forbidden to them.


Thoughts?

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Post Monday, 22nd September 2014, 04:09

Re: Bikeshedding "Demigod"

bisonbisonbison wrote:
  Code:
The Guardians are a powerful species of servile humanoids, tasked since their creation with safeguarding the treasures and wonders of other races.  In the dungeon, they have are in the thrall of the Orb of Zot, and worship it to the exclusion of all else.  They will use every means at their disposal to retrieve the Orb and share its majesty with the world above.

Strong of limb, quick-witted and agile, Guardians are adaptable to any situation.  They are blessed with large reserves of health and magic, and as they grow in experience, Guardians may allocate their attributes at will, filling any niche from warrior to mage.  Due to their devotion to their Orb, the worship of deities is forbidden to them.


Thoughts?


Most of crawl's races make sense at a glance, or at least ought to. Demigods do, this doesn't.
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Post Monday, 22nd September 2014, 04:53

Re: That which we call Demigod by any other name would Crawl

Greyr wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Pariah might work well.


This makes me wonder if a Crawl lore thread would be worthwhile. Some Dark Souls-esque story telling would be neat.

For those of you who don't know, Dark Souls is a game that tells a good 90% of it's lore through item descriptions. Now, I'll be the first one to admit that Crawl doesn't really need lore and, in fact, this idea may be a little silly, but still. Adding some sort of lore description to unrands and expanding on the (already sufficient) unique descriptions might be appropriate.

eg the demon blade "leech" was blessed by god X because god Y did something blah blah blah, you get the point.

As of right now we have some nice tie ins with Wizlabs and Randarts, so really what I'm proposing here is just more minimally invasive stuff like that.


There's some of that in the game like when u find out Nikola built all the electric golems in Zot but I wish there was more yeah. I'll have to put some thought into it :)
Fannar used to have an extensive backstory in his description but that was removed awhile ago.
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Mines Malingerer

Posts: 45

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 00:00

Post Monday, 22nd September 2014, 15:56

Re: Bikeshedding "Demigod"

Kismet wrote:
bisonbisonbison wrote:
  Code:
The Guardians are a powerful species of servile humanoids, tasked since their creation with safeguarding the treasures and wonders of other races.  In the dungeon, they have are in the thrall of the Orb of Zot, and worship it to the exclusion of all else.  They will use every means at their disposal to retrieve the Orb and share its majesty with the world above.

Strong of limb, quick-witted and agile, Guardians are adaptable to any situation.  They are blessed with large reserves of health and magic, and as they grow in experience, Guardians may allocate their attributes at will, filling any niche from warrior to mage.  Due to their devotion to their Orb, the worship of deities is forbidden to them.


Thoughts?


Most of crawl's races make sense at a glance, or at least ought to. Demigods do, this doesn't.


Yeah, it's pulling together something new, cause no one can really find something that makes sense in this slot without extraneous resists and stuff being part of the flavor. Demigods are a recognizable thing, but they're a poor gloss for "much attributes, no god", because in pretty much any mythology a demigod is more involved with the gods than a regular mortal, not exempt from interaction with them.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Monday, 22nd September 2014, 16:01

Re: Bikeshedding "Demigod"

bisonbisonbison wrote:because in pretty much any mythology a demigod is more involved with the gods than a regular mortal, not exempt from interaction with them.


Which is why I went with a background proposal that makes them a formerly devout people whose bloodline the gods have chosen to forcibly ignore due to their prior god's indiscretions.
Last edited by XuaXua on Monday, 22nd September 2014, 16:04, edited 1 time in total.
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