Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP


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Post Saturday, 2nd August 2014, 19:08

Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

I think the difficulty level of Crawl for new players and so called regular players is just fine. However, I also think (like I guess many others) that after Lair the game is quite easy if you know what you're doing and avoid any stupid mistakes. So I understand that some people would like the game to be more challenging.

Death in Crawl is almost always caused by getting your HP reduced to zero or below. There's also starving, drowning and sinking in lava but they're pretty rare. So if the amount of max HP characters have would be reduced, the chance of death would be bigger and the game thus harder.

So I propose an rcfile option for scaling down the max HP for the whole of the game. It would only affect newly created games. The default value would be 100%, but you could change it to a smaller value, for example 50%. Then you would have 50% less HP in the game. If score is important, this could give an automatic multiplier to the score (50% hp -> 2*score, 33% HP -> 3*score etc.). Of course this scaling factor would be displayed in character dumps, so that everyone could see it.

A problem would be that this would affect early game difficulty more than late game. So maybe somehow the max HP in the later stages should be reduced more. This would require a more complicated system. Of course there could also be an optional max HP limit. Playing with a hard limit of 100 HP would surely be more challenging.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
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Post Saturday, 2nd August 2014, 21:23

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

  Code:
{
function hp_conduct()
   local hp, mhp = you.hp()
   return ((mhp - hp) > 100)
end

function ready()
    if hp_conduct() then
        crawl.sendkeys("*qyes")
    end
end
}
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

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Hirsch I, Patashu, Sprucery
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Post Sunday, 3rd August 2014, 14:05

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Let me get a win first. ;)

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Post Sunday, 3rd August 2014, 17:53

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Sprucery wrote:after Lair the game is quite easy if you know what you're doing and avoid any stupid mistakes

The qualifier cancels the premise.

There are so many ways to make "stupid mistakes" that even if you know how to avoid them the game is still never "quite easy." My latest dead wizard cleared Lair and Orc "quite easily," and was killed in the Spider's Nest through a bad confluence of shit luck. He could not even kill an emperor scorpion, but even leading them off the level (trying to "avoid stupid mistakes") and slowly progress with easier stuff, he was trapped in a sudden web and killed by a mob that came out of nowhere. It's an infuriatingly difficult game, and you're smoking crack if you think it's quite easy.

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Post Sunday, 3rd August 2014, 19:13

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

As if to underscore it, the newest game I am playing (attempt #142) yielded enough difficulty to raise my DEWz to XL7 by D:4.
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.15-b1-7-gb785ff6 (webtiles) character file.

Aule the Magician (Deep Elf Wizard)                 Turns: 4787, Time: 00:32:58

HP  39/39        AC  5     Str  6      XL: 7   Next: 40%
MP  24/24        EV 11     Int 23      God:
Gold 195         SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  6 memorised,  5 levels left

rFire  . . .     SeeInvis .     s - +0 trident
rCold  + . .     Clarity  .     l - +0 leather armour
rNeg   . . .     rCorr    .     (no shield)
rPois  .         rRot     .     t - +0 helmet
rElec  .         Spirit   .     u - +0 cloak
SustAb .         Warding  .     (no gloves)
rMut   .         Stasis   .     (no boots)
Gourm  .                        (no amulet)
MR     .....                    g - ring of flight
                                b - ring of protection from cold

@: repel missiles, not resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: no striking features
a: Evoke Flight


You are on level 3 of the Dungeon.
You are near starving.

You have visited 1 branch of the dungeon, and seen 4 of its levels.

You have collected 195 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 q - a +4 quarterstaff of chaos
   (You took it off Crazy Yiuf on level 2 of the Dungeon)
 s - a +0 trident (weapon)
Armour
 l - a +0 leather armour (worn)
 t - a +0 helmet (worn)
 u - a +0 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 n - a wand of confusion {zapped: 13}
Comestibles
 d - 3 bread rations
 m - 5 fruits
Scrolls
 a - 2 scrolls of fog
 f - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 i - 2 scrolls labeled DUOPLU NOIDIA
 v - a scroll labeled ZUOG SCHACZEYL
Jewellery
 b - a ring of protection from cold (left hand)
   (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
 g - a ring of flight (right hand)
   (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
Potions
 e - 3 potions of restore abilities
 h - 3 potions of invisibility
 j - a potion of porridge
 k - 2 potions of flight
 o - a potion of resistance
 x - 2 potions of curing
Books
 c - a book of Minor Magic   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Magic Dart                        Conjuration                  1
   *Blink                             Translocation                2
   *Call Imp                          Summoning                    2
   *Repel Missiles                    Charms/Air                   2
   Slow                               Hexes                        2
   *Conjure Flame                     Conjuration/Fire             3
   *Mephitic Cloud                    Conjuration/Poison/Air       3


   Skills:
 + Level 1.9 Fighting
 + Level 4.6 Dodging
 - Level 2.7 Stealth
 + Level 6.2 Spellcasting
 + Level 3.1 Conjurations
 - Level 3.4 Summonings
 - Level 3.4 Translocations
 - Level 2.8 Fire Magic


You have 5 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ###.         2%          1    None
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          3%          2    None
c - Call Imp              Summ           ###.....     3%          2    None
d - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  ##......     17%         3    #......
e - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      ###.....     10%         3    #......
f - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #.....       14%         2    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (4/15)           
Temple: D:4-7       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Dithmenos
Kikubaaqudgha
Qazlal
Sif Muna
Trog

Annotations:
D:4 Pikel

Message History

Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You miscast Blink. Your skin tingles. The slave closely misses you.
The orc priest hits you but does no damage.
Casting: Blink
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
You blink.
The orc priest prays to Beogh.
You feel troubled.
You climb upwards.
A kobold comes into view.
The kobold shouts!
The kobold throws a stone. The stone hits you.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You see here a stone.
Casting: Blink
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Magic Dart
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f - kobold
Aim: a kobold
The magic dart hits the kobold.
The kobold is heavily wounded.
The kobold throws a stone. The stone misses you.
Casting: Magic Dart
Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells.
Aiming: Magic Dart
Press: ? - help, Shift-Dir - straight line, f/p - kobold
Aim: a kobold (heavily wounded)
The magic dart hits the kobold.
You kill the kobold!
You start resting.
You start resting.
Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
You start resting.
All of the chunks of flesh in your inventory have rotted away.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
You start resting.
You are near starving!
You start resting.
HP restored.
Char dumped successfully.
Unknown command.
Unknown command.
What do you say?
 t - Shout!
Orders for allies: a - Attack new target.
                   r - Retreat!             s - Stop attacking.
                   w - Wait here.           f - Follow me.
 Anything else - Stay silent.
Okay, then.

#######.##.#.#     #.##.....'....
........##...#######.###...##.<..
#############%.....#.#.'...'.....
 ######............).#%#...#'####
 #.................###.#.......#
 #.................# #.#.......#
 #.................# #.#.......#
 #.................# #.#.......#
 #..............@..# #.#.......#
 #...............(.# #.####....##
 #.................# #.#  ##.....
 #.................# #.#   ######
 #)................# #.#
 #.................# #.#
 ######.########...# #.#
      #.#      ##### #.#
      #.##############.#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Grinder (D:3)
  Eustachio (D:4)
  The ghost of KRYSIA61 the Bolt Thrower, an average HuHu (D:3)
  Sigmund (D:4)
  Crazy Yiuf (D:2)
  2 orc priests (D:4)
  Ijyb (D:2)
  2 adders (D:3)
  A giant mite (D:3)
  2 worms (D:3)
  7 orcs
  4 giant cockroaches
  8 goblins
  8 hobgoblins
  2 jackals (D:1)
  3 kobolds (D:3)
  A quokka (D:3)
  11 bats
  5 giant newts
  4 rats
66 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A giant gecko (D:2)
  A jackal (D:3)
  A kobold (D:2)
3 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A crimson imp (D:4)
1 creature vanquished.

Grand Total: 70 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Aule, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 10/10 MP: 6/6
    83 | D:1      | Identified a scroll of teleportation
   100 | D:1      | Identified a scroll of fog
   483 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/15 MP: 2/10
   487 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   490 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
   558 | D:1      | Identified a scroll of remove curse
   624 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  1407 | D:2      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1427 | D:2      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  1464 | D:2      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  1464 | D:2      | Noticed Ijyb
  1480 | D:2      | Killed Ijyb
  1480 | D:2      | Reached skill level 3 in Dodging
  1480 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 12/19 MP: 2/14
  1558 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  1562 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  1571 | D:2      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  1636 | D:2      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  1745 | D:2      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  1886 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 24/24 MP: 10/17
  1890 | D:2      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  2003 | D:3      | Identified 4 scrolls of identify
  2003 | D:3      | Identified 2 potions of restore abilities
  2004 | D:3      | Identified a potion of resistance
  2005 | D:3      | Identified a potion of flight
  2006 | D:3      | Identified a potion of invisibility
  2007 | D:3      | Noticed KRYSIA61's ghost (average HuHu)
  2116 | D:3      | Identified a potion of cancellation
  2117 | D:3      | Identified a potion of haste
  2121 | D:3      | Killed KRYSIA61's ghost
  2121 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Conjurations
  2121 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Translocations
  2121 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  2121 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 15/28 MP: 1/19
  2318 | D:3      | Identified a ring of protection from cold (You found it on level 3 of the Dungeon)
  2629 | D:3      | Found a stormy altar of Qazlal.
  2738 | D:3      | Noticed Grinder
  2743 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Summonings
  2746 | D:3      | Killed Grinder
  2746 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  2746 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Dodging
  2746 | D:3      | Reached skill level 2 in Fire Magic
  2746 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/34 MP: 6/21
  3650 | D:4      | Noticed Sigmund
  3675 | D:4      | Killed Sigmund
  3675 | D:4      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  3675 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Summonings
  3675 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Translocations
  3831 | D:4      | Found a shadowy altar of Dithmenos.
  3994 | D:4      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  4005 | D:4      | Noticed Eustachio
  4023 | D:4      | Killed Eustachio
  4023 | D:4      | Reached skill level 3 in Conjurations
  4023 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 33/39 MP: 3/24
  4048 | D:4      | Identified a potion of heal wounds
  4217 | D:4      | Identified a ring of flight (You found it on level 4 of the Dungeon)
  4291 | D:4      | Noticed Pikel


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Short sword       |    11 |       |       ||    11
       Quarterstaff      |       |     7 |       ||     7
       Trident           |       |     4 |    32 ||    36
 Cast: Magic Dart        |    59 |    89 |     9 ||   157
       Call Imp          |     4 |     1 |     2 ||     7
       Conjure Flame     |     4 |    15 |     1 ||    20
       Mephitic Cloud    |     2 |    10 |     7 ||    19
       Repel Missiles    |       |     2 |       ||     2
       Blink             |       |     1 |     8 ||     9
  Use: Scroll            |     3 |     4 |       ||     7
       Potion            |       |     2 |     1 ||     3
 Stab: Confused          |       |     2 |     1 ||     3
  Eat: Chunk             |     2 |     7 |     1 ||    10
       Fruit             |       |     2 |       ||     2

dck

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Post Sunday, 3rd August 2014, 19:45

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Intending no offense the amount of attention required to win crawl is inversely proportional to your familiarity with the game and your character's depth.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 3rd August 2014, 19:56

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

First of all, I didn't mean to insult anyone who's been killed after Lair, when I used the expression "stupid mistake".

I also said that I think the difficulty level for "new players and so called regular players" is just fine. But for those who want extra challenge, HP scaling would provide it.

I can honestly say that after I got the hang of this game myself, all deaths after Lair have been "stupid mistakes" from my part. You are of course right (and I've said it before myself) that there are so many ways to make mistakes that it's easy to get killed. I'm on my first streak now, won HEMo and DEHu and now on Depths:3 with a DDAs. Let's see if mentioning this will end the streak (and I bet it will be a stupid mistake ;)
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 01:32

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

<nrook> that's what's so great about Crawl: every time, you don't even have rage at the chance of the heavens to sustain you; you know, with a cold certainty something like that of a priest who has lost his faith in God, that your death was caused by none other than yourself, and that a better man could have avoided it.

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Neon, tedric

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 02:11

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Sprucery wrote:First of all, I didn't mean to insult anyone who's been killed after Lair, when I used the expression "stupid mistake".

I also said that I think the difficulty level for "new players and so called regular players" is just fine. But for those who want extra challenge, HP scaling would provide it.

It's a good suggestion. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, sorry..

Sprucery wrote:I can honestly say that after I got the hang of this game myself, all deaths after Lair have been "stupid mistakes" from my part. You are of course right (and I've said it before myself) that there are so many ways to make mistakes that it's easy to get killed.

dck wrote:Intending no offense the amount of attention required to win crawl is inversely proportional to your familiarity with the game and your character's depth.

Maybe you guys have forgotten how hard it is to first learn all that there is to learn in order to gain said familiarity, and then how hard it is to not only remember it all but never make mistakes in the process. For limitless intellects, maybe it's a breeze, but for people like me whose intellect and ability to curtail mistakes are both limited, there is nothing easy about the path, the progression, or the consistent execution of the stated ideological party line.

This game is hard as hell. Don't kid yourselves, because you're not kidding those of us trying to get one lonely win after, sometimes, hundreds of games.

I still like your suggestion, though. ;)
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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 04:09

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Imagine if you picked up a roguelike and either intentionally swore to or, just guided by your personality type, never disengage from a battle that you have a possibility of winning. It would become almost impossible to win, because in a roguelike you need to be able to pick fights and retreat, but it's not the roguelike's fault you're deliberately not using the strongest tool available to you. This isn't even a hypothetical example - watch Zermako play if you ever get a chance to. (This is basically a demonstration that 'people have played Crawl 1000s of times and still haven't won' does not imply 'Crawl is incredibly hard'.)

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duvessa, variouselite

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 13:46

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Aule wrote:My latest dead wizard cleared Lair and Orc "quite easily," and was killed in the Spider's Nest through a bad confluence of shit luck. (. . .) he was trapped in a sudden web and killed by a mob that came out of nowhere.

That's not really luck: spiders have a not-obvious mechanic called "web sense" that means when you're trapped in a web in the Spider branch you're effectively Marked.

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 19:22

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Lasty wrote:
Aule wrote:My latest dead wizard cleared Lair and Orc "quite easily," and was killed in the Spider's Nest through a bad confluence of shit luck. (. . .) he was trapped in a sudden web and killed by a mob that came out of nowhere.

That's not really luck: spiders have a not-obvious mechanic called "web sense" that means when you're trapped in a web in the Spider branch you're effectively Marked.

Hmm, okay...
Aule wrote:My latest dead wizard cleared Lair and Orc "quite easily," and was killed in the Spider's Nest by hidden design through what is often referred to as a "gotcha."

Fixed.

dck

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 19:25

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

To me spiders nearby noticing you when you get entangled always was about as apparent as shouting monsters waking up things in the neighborhood.

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 20:16

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Well, maybe I'm not very bright. I'm good with that. But when an orc shouts, a message appears: "The orc shouts!" I don't remember a message saying "Your struggling in the web is attracting spiders." But I could be wrong (because I'm not very bright). But even better would be, "You sense the approach of more spiders through vibrations in the web." Sounds ominous, and it would be tit-for-tat, really.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 20:59

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Yeah I'm not sure how the two are comparable. If you try to sneak up on a pack of yaks and fail you see "The yak bellows!" and then they all wake up, that's pretty clear. What's the equivalent for websense, and how do you avoid writing it off due to "confirmation bias"?

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 21:07

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Note that, unlike with shouts, you don't wake anything up with webs. It's just the awake spiders that you attract.
edit: looks like I was wrong, you can actually wake them with webs.
Last edited by stickyfingers on Monday, 4th August 2014, 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 21:23

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

learnDB:

web sense
Creatures with this flag (most spiders and Arachne) are alerted when something is caught in a web within 10 squares.


i also read somewhere web sense has been changed(nerfed) recently, but dunno which version

edit ontopic:

maybe OP compares DCSS to roguelikes like tome4 insane+, if he does its easy ofc compared to that one. some ppl are just hardcore
Last edited by Octopode-monk-of-XOM on Monday, 4th August 2014, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 21:34

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

idk I got caught in a net in the nest of spiders and spiders previously wandering in the neighboring area immediately charged at me, hard to assume there's nothing fancy going on there.
Anyway, much like enemy blood scent I always liked how it isn't completely spelled for you while remaining visible. makes for fun "oh so that's what's going on" when you notice it and it's not like it's going to be critical to any character's success without other tactical errors also on the table.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4478

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 4th August 2014, 22:00

Re: Changing game difficulty level by scaling HP

Octopode-monk-of-XOM wrote:maybe OP compares DCSS to roguelikes like tome4 insane+, if he does its easy ofc compared to that one. some ppl are just hardcore

Nope, haven't played those. Just mostly Nethack and ADoM, some Slash'em, a bit DoomRL.

Anyway the point of this thread originally wasn't to argue how difficult Crawl is, because it's a subjective thing. (And depends on character combination, of course. I splatted a whole lot of Octopodes before getting one to clear Lair, and that OpAK then died completely due to my own stupidity in a constriction duel with an anaconda.)

For some reason, I've never had especially hard times in Spider so far. Sometimes I've left it for later because of some nasty uniques, but all in all Spider has been the easiest Lair branch to me.
DCSS: 97:...MfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}
FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAKBaFi{MiDeMfDe}{DrAKTrAMGhEnGnWz}
{PaBeDjFi}OgAKPaCAGnCjOgCKMfAEAtCKSpCjDEEE{HOSu
Bloat: 17: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}KiPaAnDrBXDBQOApDaMeAGBiOCNKAsFnFlUs{RoBoNeWi

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