Badforum entry 144


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 20:58

Badforum entry 144

So... I see someone added one of the things I've said on badforum and I wonder why they thought that was necessary. Yes, Dragon Form IS considered spellcasting, however it's just a buff, very much unlike a conjuration, that is used to kill stuff directly.

My original post, unedited: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=103829#p103829 Second paragraph is where it is.
You can see how he left out the part where I say "I was just tabbing stuff with it" in an attempt to make me sound like a fool (and even then, he fails).

I'm really wondering who made the list because they've listed many things that don't feel like *true* badforum material to me.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1881

Joined: Saturday, 7th September 2013, 21:16

Location: Itajubá, MG, Brazil.

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 21:29

Re: Badforum entry 144

"going from Trog ---> Chei ensures the easiest Trog wrath ever"
well, only from trog's pov. "man, am I angry with this guy. good thing he's slow as fuck, so killing him will be easy."
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 508

Joined: Tuesday, 1st November 2011, 00:36

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 21:41

Re: Badforum entry 144

I'm pretty sure anyone can append an entry to badforum. Anyway, I think the idea is that it's silly to say you are not a spellcaster when you have invested enough XP to cast a level 7 spell

For this message the author Leafsnail has received thanks: 2
cerebovssquire, duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 21:42

Re: Badforum entry 144

Apparently somebody decided to run that joke right into the ground.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks:
TehDruid
User avatar

Barkeep

Posts: 1788

Joined: Saturday, 29th June 2013, 16:52

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 22:13

Re: Badforum entry 144

KoboldLord wrote:joke

For this message the author archaeo has received thanks:
TehDruid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 22:27

Re: Badforum entry 144

I can see why people might refute casting a level 7 spell as not being a spellcaster, but I think tehdruid has a valid point about dragon form being a spell that functions through the best key in crawl, tab. He isn't saying that you shouldn't cast magic, just that he prefers the melee play style and doesn't learn targeted spells. Learning support magic is obviously good. Dragon form happens to be a surprisingly high level support spell, but it's still just helping you melee more.

The only thing questionable in the original post is the stat choices part, dex has a fairly smooth stepdown curve now, and from what I hear putting your 25th point into dex has a very small decrease from your 24th, but it keeps gradually decreasing from then on. But that is a fairly minor point, and not what was quoted in badforum.

TLDR: Dragon form isn't a spell and anyone saying it is totally wrong. Also don't use dragon form, but that's besides the point.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 21st July 2014, 23:28

Re: Badforum entry 144

dragon form was level 8 at the time
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 05:58

Re: Badforum entry 144

duvessa wrote:dragon form was level 8 at the time

Ok
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 06:10

Re: Badforum entry 144

Idk about current dex diminishing returns and I don't source dive at all, so yeah, I have no clue how dex scales past 24. I just knew it is optimal to get it up to 24 for max attribute point distribution efficiency. And perhaps even back when the post was created, that was wrong.

Still, the part of this specific post of mine mentioned on badforum is just a bad attempt at making a joke using someone else's words. If someone reads through the original post's text, they can easily realize what I meant by saying it's not a spell, unless they lack common sense and the ability to grasp ideas within a certain context.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, there's another 2 posts made by me in there, which didn't bother me at all, so, yeah... I can take jokes.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 06:38

Re: Badforum entry 144

A spell is a magical effect that the player can produce at will, provided they have sufficient MP and are skilled enough in the spell's magic schools. Spells are learned from books.


-crawl wiki

that description is right and you are wrong. your post easily belongs in badforums. it is as if someone was arguing stabbing isn't ``meleeing`` because xxxxxx and abcabc and yyyyyy but really its just a bunch of meaningless letters cobbled together that mean just as much as your arguments that dragon form is somehow not a spell
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 06:53

Re: Badforum entry 144

@twelwe: Pure 12 year old logic, nice! Living up to your name, I see.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 06:55

Re: Badforum entry 144

``dragonform is not a spell`` - your superior logic
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 08:51

Re: Badforum entry 144

Dragon form is a spell. I don't see why you insist on stating the obvious. What I meant in my initial post however, is clearly apparent if you have the minimum amount of brain functionality. What you're saying is that everyone that reads posts on this forums is an idiot and can't tell what I meant.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 318

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 10:16

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 09:16

Re: Badforum entry 144

start a badbadforum to make fun of the people that dont get jokes
"No one should have two lives / Now you know my middle names are wrong and right / But baby there's no guidance / When random rules"

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 09:18

Re: Badforum entry 144

Well it was obviously added because you said in the same sentence that you cast a lv8, normally dual school spell in a certain game and don't consider it a spellcaster. Hoperfully you can see why some may find that funny.
Now you could mean you didn't consider it an offensive spellcaster or a primary spellcaster or whatever you wish. Certainly you weren't a conjurer but then hex users are not conjurers either and they cast spells all the same. I also doubt you weren't a primary spellcaster since I'm pretty sure lots of transmutations were used, sure all you do once transmuted is fighting more or less normally, but what of it? Tmuts are by definition spells that change your combat method to one degree or another.

Also dragon form is a wonderful spell nowadays and you should use it, but that's beside the point.
Also all of this nonsense about caring about having more than 24 dex and "stat allocation efficiency" that has started showing up as of late is complete madness and a disgrace.

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 10:54

Re: Badforum entry 144

not casting conjurations doesn't make me a "wrong" or "bad" spellcaster

stop the oppression

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 3
Arrhythmia, Hirsch I, TehDruid
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1881

Joined: Saturday, 7th September 2013, 21:16

Location: Itajubá, MG, Brazil.

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 11:19

Re: Badforum entry 144

druids dont cast spells, they become one with nature and nature rewards them with the power to change. you guys are all wrong.
my posts are to be read in a mildly playful tone, with a deep, sexy voice.

For this message the author Hirsch I has received thanks:
TehDruid

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 13:42

Re: Badforum entry 144

Badforum is just another way for people to be snarky assholes to each other.

And the term 'spellcaster' isn't typically used to describe any character who ever casts a spell. Otherwise every non trog character is a spellcaster, because they have regeneration, or haste, or whatever. I wouldn't describe a DeCj who kills enemies with firestorm a 'fighter' because he kills a rat with a staff occasionally.

For this message the author damiac has received thanks:
TehDruid

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 14:02

Re: Badforum entry 144

Alternatively it can be a collection of fun silly things someone wants to share.
This hypothesis is backed by the fact there are no names attached to entries.

For this message the author dck has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, duvessa

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 14:04

Re: Badforum entry 144

no you don't understand

your mind is consumed by snark; you're one of them now

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 2
duvessa, TehDruid

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 14:07

Re: Badforum entry 144

Cruo cruento paashaeximus, crunatus!

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 14:33

Re: Badforum entry 144

damiac wrote:And the term 'spellcaster' isn't typically used to describe any character who ever casts a spell.

Right; the term "spellcaster" is typically used to mean "conjurer who tries to avoid learning any melee skills and only wears robes because that's what wizards do". It shouldn't be, but that's because the real meaning of "spellcaster" in Crawl is Trog-not-worshipper, so understanding it correctly means never needing to use it.

damiac wrote:Otherwise every non trog character is a spellcaster, because they have regeneration, or haste, or whatever.

If one were to split up arbitrarily which non-Trog characters are and are not "casters", it might be reasonable to draw a distinction between level 3 spells and level 8 spells, given the amount of investment into Magic skills they require.
Last edited by Lasty on Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 2
nilsbloodaxe, TehDruid
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 287

Joined: Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 01:29

Location: NJ, USA

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 14:47

Re: Badforum entry 144

Lasty wrote:Right; the term "spellcaster" is typically used to mean "conjurer who tries to avoid learning any melee skills and only wears robes because that's how what wizards do". It shouldn't be, but that's because the real meaning of "spellcaster" in Crawl is Trog-not-worshipper, so understanding it correctly means never needing to use it.

I pretty much agree with this, though there are a few side cases of a Trogless non-spellcaster.
Official Online Wins and Streaks
Experimental Wins: 1xImHu (Imps) 1xTrBe (chunkless)
Offline Wins: 2xTrCK 1xFeBe 1xHuWn 1xKoAr 1xMiFi
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:41

Re: Badforum entry 144

I love it when people jump to the conclusion that I don't get why something is supposed to be funny and just make an ass out of themselves with their know-it-all attitude. Granted, I may look like I fall into this category myself sometimes, I guess.

I get the appeal of badforum, no matter how improbable that may seem to some of you. I laughed with *most* of the entries (some are just not funny, imo, we're talking opinions here). And no, I actually laughed at the two more entries that are mine. I wasn't angry at all. And I understand how one may find this specific post funny... Even though I clearly said that I was just tabbing after buffing myself with DF, which is not my definition of spell caster, and the person that put this on badforum selectively picked a few parts that made it sound stupid and "funny". I'm pretty sure there's more entries that were butchered like that to sound like a mouth-breathing moron typed them. That's because they're out of context! Geez.

Everyone is repeating the same thing; OMG!!! But but but, Dragon Form is a spell by the book!!11!!!oneoneeleven!! Why is this guy saying he doesn't consider his character to be a spell caster when it is so clearly written in the rules that he's using spells???? :x This is outrageous!!! Let's burn him, brothers!!! Well, my dear fellow tavern-goers, excuse me for not feeling very spell caster-y when I switch into a monster and trample my enemies to death and eat their faces off. Or when I use haste to enhance physical combat and movement speed. These are just buffs, they may be spells by the book, however I still consider my guy a fighter.

You want to know a fun fact about that DrMo? I even got the Anemomancer title for shits and giggles, because it sounded cool and so what? In the end, i'll make as much of a suboptimal build as I like... I'm just having fun, okay? I never made a freaking guide of it for new players, to ruin their being healthily introduced to your precious game.

This whole thing reminds me of something that happened around 10 years ago, when I was a teenager and some pretentious douche in a chat room asked me what sub-genre of metal I considered a specific band to be and we happened to have different definitions. He was more than 10 years older than me and he considered it cool to insult the fuck out of me in front of everyone in the chat room for my "abnormal" approach of the matter. There's some sad, sad people out there that need to make others feel bad in front of everyone to assert their dominance.

More on badforum, I'm actually sad that my entry that went somewhat like this; "I like the food reform. It makes things more realistic!" is gone. I honestly don't know what I was thinking back then. Realism in games sucks! It almost always creates tedium for the sake of tedium.

Anyway, you can keep your "strict" definition and I'll keep my definition. However, I'm glad to see that some people get what I meant. Good for you, guys. Keep your mind open. And please, everybody, let's not be dicks to each other, it's just a game. And I'm not even active lately on the forums, I didn't want to stir any drama. I just felt like doing it when I opened this topic. It can be shut down, if you think that it promotes flaming etc. I'm pretty sure someone will find some bullshit logic within my statements, it's always the case on the internet.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:45

Re: Badforum entry 144

man that a lot of words

For this message the author dck has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, cerebovssquire
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:46

Re: Badforum entry 144

TehDruid wrote:Anyway, you can keep your "strict" definition and I'll keep my definition.


It isn't "our" definition: someone who casts spells is a spellcaster. if someone was of the strong opinion that a stabber was not melee and made a post about it, they could potentially end up in badforums. this is a natural cycle, like nature or something.
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:48

Re: Badforum entry 144

TehDruid wrote:Well, my dear fellow tavern-goers, excuse me for not feeling very spell caster-y when I switch into a monster

Image

For this message the author Sar has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, TehDruid
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:48

Re: Badforum entry 144

dck wrote:man that a lot of words

If you find it too tiresome, you don't have to read it, commenting on its length though hardly promotes any interesting conversation.
Granted, we're in CYC territory, so there's no point in being too serious. ;)
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 18:58

Re: Badforum entry 144

Lasty wrote:Right; the term "spellcaster" is typically used to mean "conjurer who tries to avoid learning any melee skills and only wears robes because that's what wizards do". It shouldn't be, but that's because the real meaning of "spellcaster" in Crawl is Trog-not-worshipper, so understanding it correctly means never needing to use it.


Eh, the other interpretation is not unreasonable on the face of it. English is a notoriously imprecise language, and words often mean different things in different contexts. In this particular case, I think the context is clear enough that any person who is confused by what the original poster meant is probably intentionally dissembling.

Lasty wrote:If one were to split up arbitrarily which non-Trog characters are and are not "casters", it might be reasonable to draw a distinction between level 3 spells and level 8 spells, given the amount of investment into Magic skills they require.


Eh, making a distinction between '90% of the non-movement combat actions taken by this character involve casting spells' and '10% of the non-movement combat actions taken by this character involve casting spells' seems like a pretty reasonable and non-arbitrary distinction to me. If my ice elementalist of Vehumet puts picks up a stack of tomahawks on D1 and uses them to lure orcs into Freeze range without attracting their buddies, are you going to claim that it would be usefully descriptive to call this character a 'throwing character'? Charms-only or transmutations-only spellcasters that deal damage almost exclusively by melee attacks can be described as 'spellcasters' with literal correctness, but doing so is so vacuously useless that it is better left unsaid.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks:
TehDruid
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 287

Joined: Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 01:29

Location: NJ, USA

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:00

Re: Badforum entry 144

TehDruid wrote:And please, everybody, let's not be dicks to each other, it's just a game. And I'm not even active lately on the forums, I didn't want to stir any drama.

You don't want to stir up drama, and yet, YOU STARTED THIS THREAD. Moreover, when people disagreed with your take on spellcaster, your responses were the (melo)dramatic ones. And to top it all off, you are the one that are calling people asses and equating them with douchebags, so good job on not being a dick.

TehDruid wrote:I never made a freaking guide of it for new players, to ruin their being healthily introduced to your precious game.

Seriously, you are the one that sounds like a douche here.
Official Online Wins and Streaks
Experimental Wins: 1xImHu (Imps) 1xTrBe (chunkless)
Offline Wins: 2xTrCK 1xFeBe 1xHuWn 1xKoAr 1xMiFi

For this message the author nilsbloodaxe has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Sar
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:01

Re: Badforum entry 144

twelwe wrote:It isn't "our" definition: someone who casts spells is a spellcaster..

I didn't know we had a dictionary bot on the forums, cool!
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:10

Re: Badforum entry 144

nilsbloodaxe wrote:You don't want to stir up drama, and yet, YOU STARTED THIS THREAD. Moreover, when people disagreed with your take on spellcaster, your responses were the (melo)dramatic ones. And to top it all off, you are the one that are calling people asses and equating them with douchebags, so good job on not being a dick.
I do regret making this thread, since it hasn't been particularly light-hearted. And if I did go into the defensive (I'll give you that I did), you have the attitude of certain people to thank for that. If you actually bothered to read the posts in a row (I understand that you may be busy or something), you can see I didn't respond negatively to anyone other than twelwe's "I have the right answer, you are wrong" attitude, where he completely defies the fact that I stated in the first post of this topic that I KNOW that Dragon Form is a spell. From there on he just insisted on pointing out something I've already said and know. Keep defending your precious leader!
nilsbloodaxe wrote:Seriously, you are the one that sounds like a douche here.
EDIT: So I guess I'm making condescending remarks and everyone's feelings are getting hurt, when most people on the internet talk to each other as bluntly as possible at the first opportunity...
Last edited by TehDruid on Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:40, edited 2 times in total.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:20

Re: Badforum entry 144

TehDruid wrote:
twelwe wrote:It isn't "our" definition: someone who casts spells is a spellcaster..

I didn't know we had a dictionary bot on the forums, cool!


i`m not technicilayy posting right now, just replying. in reality i am trancending the corporate boundaries forced upon us by comcast & aol to communicate directly through my mind via the information hyway. my telepsychic told me this day would happen, and on that day i would finally achieve bot status
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

For this message the author twelwe has received thanks: 4
Arrhythmia, duvessa, Sar, TehDruid

dck

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1653

Joined: Tuesday, 30th July 2013, 11:29

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:27

Re: Badforum entry 144

let's not be dicks to each other

ahem

For this message the author dck has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Sar
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:30

Re: Badforum entry 144

twelwe wrote:
TehDruid wrote:
twelwe wrote:It isn't "our" definition: someone who casts spells is a spellcaster..

I didn't know we had a dictionary bot on the forums, cool!


i`m not technicilayy posting right now, just replying. in reality i am trancending the corporate boundaries forced upon us by comcast & aol to communicate directly through my mind via the information hyway. my telepsychic told me this day would happen, and on that day i would finally achieve bot status

Now, this is a joke I consider smart. And I'm being a 100% honest. Although you may not feel like you need my "approval", twelwe, after our exhchange, I do most of the time enjoy your posts and I don't care if you don't care! ;)
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1783

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:36

Re: Badforum entry 144

dck wrote:
let's not be dicks to each other

ahem

What, the word dick is not allowed as a figure of speech? Nobody posted any genitalia. :P
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:47

Re: Badforum entry 144

KoboldLord wrote:Eh, the other interpretation is not unreasonable on the face of it. English is a notoriously imprecise language, and words often mean different things in different contexts. In this particular case, I think the context is clear enough that any person who is confused by what the original poster meant is probably intentionally dissembling.

I agree that people understood what the OP meant, and I'm not advocating for this particular badforum entry -- I feel neutral about it.

KoboldLord wrote:Eh, making a distinction between '90% of the non-movement combat actions taken by this character involve casting spells' and '10% of the non-movement combat actions taken by this character involve casting spells' seems like a pretty reasonable and non-arbitrary distinction to me. If my ice elementalist of Vehumet puts picks up a stack of tomahawks on D1 and uses them to lure orcs into Freeze range without attracting their buddies, are you going to claim that it would be usefully descriptive to call this character a 'throwing character'? Charms-only or transmutations-only spellcasters that deal damage almost exclusively by melee attacks can be described as 'spellcasters' with literal correctness, but doing so is so vacuously useless that it is better left unsaid.

I think you mistook my point: With rare exceptions and excluding self-imposed challenges, all non-trog characters are casting characters if they survive long enough, and pretty much all characters are throwing characters too if their players are using good tactics. Drawing these boxes to say that you either throw or do melee or cast [implicitly conjurations] is artificially limiting your choices. Does a character in Dragonform use tab a lot? Sure! But they also train a lot of magic, and they also cast a spell in more or less every encounter. They probably train as much magic as many of my conjurations-focused characters do, and also train about as many defenses as well -- or maybe even worse, since I only have to get my weapon skill up to XL 12-18, generally.

There are a lot of ways to describe the choices you made with a character, but limiting it to "melee" or "caster" is really limiting and misleading.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks:
TehDruid
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 287

Joined: Tuesday, 11th June 2013, 01:29

Location: NJ, USA

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:48

Re: Badforum entry 144

TehDruid wrote:I do regret making this thread, since it hasn't been particularly light-hearted. And if I did go into the defensive (I'll give you that I did), you have the attitude of certain people to thank for that. If you actually bothered to read the posts in a row (I understand that you may be busy or something), you can see I didn't respond negatively to anyone other than twelwe's "I have the right answer, you are wrong" attitude, where he completely defies the fact that I stated in the first post of this topic that I KNOW that Dragon Form is a spell. From there on he just insisted on pointing out something I've already said and know. Keep defending your precious leader!

The whole post that I quoted does not seem a negative response specifically to twelwe, but it is really negative. You made broad generalizations, put words into people's mouths, and went off on a tirade about suboptimal builds and fun when no one even commented on this. And to top it all off, you end that part with something completely dismissive (the line I quoted). Then you go on to a totally paranoid conclusion that some of the people in the thread, "need to make others feel bad in front of everyone to assert their dominance," with nothing to back you up.

Is that the obvious explanation you needed?

TehDruid wrote:Keep defending your precious leader!

And now you have pretty much solidified it for me. Go fuck yourself.
Official Online Wins and Streaks
Experimental Wins: 1xImHu (Imps) 1xTrBe (chunkless)
Offline Wins: 2xTrCK 1xFeBe 1xHuWn 1xKoAr 1xMiFi

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 2996

Joined: Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:41

Location: Berlin

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:52

Re: Badforum entry 144

Image

For this message the author cerebovssquire has received thanks: 6
dck, duvessa, Lasty, nilsbloodaxe, Sar, TehDruid
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1341

Joined: Monday, 24th October 2011, 06:13

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 19:55

Re: Badforum entry 144

this is a message from your precious leader. hereforth all thanks belong to me and the thanking of others, especially in my threads (this is one of mine) will be punished the standard way treason is punished online: image macros
seattle washington. friends for life. mods hate on me and devs ignore my posts. creater of exoelfs and dc:pt

For this message the author twelwe has received thanks: 3
nilsbloodaxe, Sar, TehDruid

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 20:29

Re: Badforum entry 144

Lasty wrote:I think you mistook my point: With rare exceptions and excluding self-imposed challenges, all non-trog characters are casting characters if they survive long enough, and pretty much all characters are throwing characters too if their players are using good tactics. Drawing these boxes to say that you either throw or do melee or cast [implicitly conjurations] is artificially limiting your choices. Does a character in Dragonform use tab a lot? Sure! But they also train a lot of magic, and they also cast a spell in more or less every encounter. They probably train as much magic as many of my conjurations-focused characters do, and also train about as many defenses as well -- or maybe even worse, since I only have to get my weapon skill up to XL 12-18, generally.

There are a lot of ways to describe the choices you made with a character, but limiting it to "melee" or "caster" is really limiting and misleading.


Sometimes language can be descriptive rather than proscriptive. It's fun to talk about our characters, and occasionally it's even fun to listen to other people talking about their characters. Nobody wants to type out 'fire conjurations build with moderate sidelines in staff melee, evocations, charms, translocations, and necromancy and a minor sideline in throwing' every single time they refer to the character in question, not when they can just say 'fire dude'. Nobody who is reasonable enough to be a credible participant in the discussion is misinterpret 'fire dude' to exclude charms or translocations, and the fact that the character trained staves and evocations rather than long blades only gives a small amount of additional information that not even be relevant to the story anyway.

It's reasonable to bundle conjurations-focused backgrounds together in some conversations. For instance, suppose the topic is managing mp and spell hunger in Lair for the benefit of a new player who does not have experience with these characters in this part of the game. Calling the bundled backgrounds 'conjurors' isn't very good because conjuror is an actual background and the ambiguity is important and potentially problematic. All of the bundled backgrounds share at least some of a pool of useful techniques for outlasting Lair packs in common, but most of them don't need or have trouble using at least a few of them. Calling these bundled backgrounds 'spellcasters' or 'casters' is less bad because there is no useful in-context alternate meaning to confuse it with. The only reason 'casters' is currently out of favor in the tavern is the Pedantry Brigade that reliably shows up every time somebody uses the term in order to challenge it, regardless of whether the Correct and Proper Use of Crawl Vocabulary is useful when trying to help a new player figure out how to survive Lair.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks:
TehDruid

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 20:38

Re: Badforum entry 144

OK, well I and others who think like me will continue to use 'caster' in the context of Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup to mean a character who primarily kills enemies using spells.
So the minotaur who picked up regen and blink will remain 'not a caster' in our view.

On the other hand an Air Elementalist High Elf who kills challenging enemies with conjurations will be called a 'caster'. And we'll know what each other mean by 'caster' because it's stupidly imprecise for 'caster' to mean 'not trog follower'. It's immediately obvious to everyone here what people mean by caster.

In the same way, a 'caster' who kills some rats now and then with a spear will remain a 'caster' and not become a 'spear user'.

Trying to invalidate terms used within a specific game using dictionary definitions is idiotic. "Casters are just small wheels guys!"


FAKEDIT: Totally ninjad by kobold lord. Just read what he said instead of this post.

For this message the author damiac has received thanks:
TehDruid

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 20:46

Re: Badforum entry 144

the problem with calling casters "casters" are people who hear "caster" and assume that caster is a dude who cast casty spells and trains casty skills, and then you get a DEFE dump with 6 Dodging and 0 Fighting (because Fighting is for fighters, duh)

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
Lasty

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1205

Joined: Friday, 8th November 2013, 17:02

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 20:59

Re: Badforum entry 144

People will still do that if you call them 'book backgrounds'. I really don't think the terminology is what makes people play badly. And glass cannon mages are a pretty common archetype in many games, it's just not an archetype that really works well in crawl.

When I first started playing, I liked CeHu's. Because they get really bad apts for dodging and armor, I didn't train those skills. Because they have the deformed body that gives 1/2 AC, I stuck with very light armor. I typically did quite well up until the first enemy I couldn't kite. I did all this even without anyone saying the word 'caster' or 'ranger' to me. If only someone had whispered 'fighter' into my ear, maybe I would have trained better...

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 22nd July 2014, 21:02

Re: Badforum entry 144

Well, maybe you're right.

Zot Zealot

Posts: 1031

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 19:52

Location: AZ, USA

Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 00:24

Re: Badforum entry 144

If this forum were a rollercoaster, this thread would be like that one spot underneath the rollercoaster that all the workers avoid because everyone throws up there.

For this message the author WalkerBoh has received thanks: 3
Arrhythmia, duvessa, nilsbloodaxe

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8786

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 01:17

Re: Badforum entry 144

I host badforum because it was taking up too much space in the learndb; for a while, the learndb entry simply directed people to that text file. I am not the person who originally added badforum to the learndb, though I added a few entries to it after that. I don't know who deleted the entry or why, but I assume it was not for being perceived as harassment, since entries like badwiki and agra still exist. Certainly I will remove it if people would like; so far ##crawl seems pretty fond of it and I haven't heard anything from elsewhere.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 01:31

Re: Badforum entry 144

It would be a better joke if it was culled into, say, a 20-item list that contained only what were deemed the funniest badforum entries ever, with a few additional rotating slots for new entries that might or might not end up earning a permanent spot. With 200 entries it's a wall of text that is actively unpleasant to read, and most of the entries either aren't funny at all or were only ever funny in the context of one forum thread from two years ago. Some are funny, but it isn't worth the effort of culling through all the failed jokes to find them.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5382

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 02:02

Re: Badforum entry 144

duvessa wrote:I host badforum because it was taking up too much space in the learndb; for a while, the learndb entry simply directed people to that text file. I am not the person who originally added badforum to the learndb, though I added a few entries to it after that. I don't know who deleted the entry or why, but I assume it was not for being perceived as harassment, since entries like badwiki and agra still exist. Certainly I will remove it if people would like; so far ##crawl seems pretty fond of it and I haven't heard anything from elsewhere.


All "bad" entries should be deleted and replaced with a link to the "crawl confessions" entry. The crawl confessions needs to be expanded. I'm sure that there's something I've posted about my undying love of Chei that would qualify.

For this message the author tasonir has received thanks:
TehDruid

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 14:01

Re: Badforum entry 144

The reason I discourage the use of terms like melee, mage, hybrid, and caster to describe characters is that I've seen several posts by new posters (and even regulars) who saw the words being used commonly to describe characters and made bad assumptions about how they should play as a result. It's true that melee/mage/hybrid/caster are easy shorthands for shared concepts, but that's the problem, really -- sorting characters into these categories makes it harder for people to see how similar characters in these categories really are and how much of good play for each one overlaps with good play for the others.

Obviously, you don't have to go to the silly extreme of describing everything about your character, but is it so hard to say something like "ranged-focused light-armour HuGl^Fed" or "conjurations-focused heavy-armour HuWz^Chei" when describing a specific character, or when discussing a tactics for using a type of attack say "when using conjurations" or "when using melee" as opposed to "if you're a caster" or "if you're a melee dude"?
Next

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.