how can we get more girls to play


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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 03:46

Re: how can we get more girls to play

So your position is that the difficulties associated with playing Dungeon Crawl and playing basketball in the NBA are comparable? Or are you just being pedantic for no reason?
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 06:49

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Answer to the original question: go ask them nicely.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 11:12

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:Sorry, I exaggerated. Let me rephrase:
I'm a white male, ergo not allowed to have opinions on things like this without being called a racist.

Let me rephrase as well: you're a white male, ergo you're not allowed to have racist opinions without every now and then being called a racist.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 11:26

Re: how can we get more girls to play

nilsbloodaxe wrote:Well, actually, it's mostly because mentioning Anita Sarkeesian and her video series in most videogame forums ends up turning into a total clusterfuck.

But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.

This isn't the first time I've seen people in this community get hostile when Sarkeesian's Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series comes up, but that's no reason to dismiss what she's done. She's a media critic, and she's put together a series of media criticism that highlights the problematic treatment of women in video games and video game culture -- and before anyone strawmans this, obviously neither she nor I are trying to say it's a problem with every video game or every video gamer. That video game communities get hostile when her work brought up doesn't mean her work should never be brought up. Generally speaking people do get hostile when they run across something that challenges their beliefs or makes them feel bad, but that's not a reason to stop challenging people's beliefs.

Arguing against her from a statistical or scientific perspective makes as much sense as asking if a film review is peer reviewed or requesting the statistical distribution of an autobiography. She isn't doing science and she doesn't claim to be doing science so it doesn't make sense to hold her project to scientific standards. This project is talking about how women are depicted in video games and the experience of being a woman playing video games and participating in video game culture. You may not like what she has to say, but if you want to argue against it, you need to argue against what it is rather than what you'd like it to be.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 13:20

Re: how can we get more girls to play

this is probably the less chaotic thread ever. I'm scared, how do I react?
back to the topic. war, strategy, competitivity, and so on, where treated like "men's things" for ages, before we started thinking "oh, maybe thats stupid, and women should participate in this stuff.". so those fields, and anything that came from them, became male dominated. now, when a certain group dominates a certain field, they usually push people from other groups from it. (I cant find the article, but I'm sure I read that somewhere.). so I believe thats why there are less women than men in gaming: women have social pressure, plus everything that make men not like games, to hold them back.
or something like that.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 14:33

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Hirsch I wrote:this is probably the less chaotic thread ever. I'm scared, how do I react?


Usually moderators just arbitrarily declare discussion "over" without considering that others might find and add to a thread at a much later time, and then lock it.

What I do like is when moderators are confused enough about a thread that they declare they will hold off on a lock consideration until they get clarification or elaboration.

I believe this to be such a thread.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 14:48

Re: how can we get more girls to play

"how can we get more girls to play"

Go find a nearby female, sit them down to play Crawl, and see what happens.

Done. Drops mic; thread lock commences.

Also: http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/22/592619 ... harassment
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 15:14

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Thanked for the link.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 20:04

twelwe wrote:how can we get more girls to play

It is well known from a German fairy tale that girls like dwarves. Another reason to bring back MD?

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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 21:46

Re: how can we get more girls to play

This might have been mentioned before here or on a different post, however, the reasons that keep most girls from playing *roguelikes* in specific, imho, are quite a few and are mostly the same reasons why most guys don't play roguelikes. To clarify, I'm talking about the average girl that actually likes to play video games (because there's quite a few that consider them a completely juvenile method of spending your free time, I know quite a few like that). Not the occasional nerdy chick, which sadly, is a rare sight. And I'm not talking about casual social games, but about more deep and engaging experiences, that either deliver a good story with solid characters with which one can identify, or challenge the player's ability to think and come up with solutions to problems (Crawl tactics, for example), or both. Of course there's more sub-categories of worthwhile games to examine, I'm just naming a few.

Problem A: Graphics: At first glance, Crawl tiles (which I love) look like an atrocity to the average gamer, which, let's face it, probably owns a last gen console or something to that extent. Now, I believe that girls are way more critical of art -in games and in general- than most guys. For example, isn't it a classic male stance to just let the wife choose how to paint the house and decorate it? Oh, and I'm not even gonna bother with ASCII. These things are outdated even for me, and on my first computer I used to run DOS, use floppy disks and have a hard disk drive of the whopping size of 128 mb. :P

Problem B: Complexity: Roguelikes (outside the casual market) are complex and that is what people that bother playing them love about them, I think. But, again, this is not just an issue that girls have. To give a personal example, I've stopped trying to get into Dwarf Fortress due to the sheer complexity of the UI and rules I'd have to learn in order to establish a healthy dwarven colony. And to top it off, I'm just not a huge fan of city management games, so it's natural that I'd give up. Sometimes, the end result (having fun playing) is just not worth the effort of learning how to play a game, since you could just do other things that you know how to do already, like read a book, for example, which is favoured by girls and women of all ages.

Problem C: Permadeath: One thing I've been thinking about is that permadeath, a defining feature of the roguelike genre, may actually be very close to gambling (the variety in which the player feels like they maintain a lot of the game's control within their hands though, not blind luck, at least when it comes to DC:SS, that is hardly a luck based roguelike), since permadeath is pretty much the same thing, the stakes are high and one wrong move means you're done. Only instead of losing your money and self-esteem, you lose the time invested in your character (and your self-esteem, possibly). Then, add the fact that (afaik) men are much more inclined to become involved in gambling and that may be something to consider. What are your thoughts?

So, to be a bit more on topic, in order to attract more females to DC:SS, either;

a) The game would have to be a totally different game targeted at a female audience, which the current fans probably wouldn't enjoy.
b) Women would have to change their taste in gaming, which is far more unlikely to happen. DC:SS is unpopular with both sexes anyway, but the very obvious lack of women in roguelikes is just a tiny part of the general lack of women in gaming communities. The way most games cater to a male perspective (typical alpha male lead characters, women are immensely sexualized and are there for the boobs and ass, etc) is a major reason why many girls don't enjoy playing a lot of games. It's simply because they weren't created with female consumers in mind.
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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 22:40

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Women who play roguelikes, do play because they like them.

Twelve, if you want to get MORE women/girls playing this game, I do not have a single word to advocate that. One person decides it individually, male or female.
Women do play games where you get points from achievements. Oh, they do. My Facebook page is filled with milestone notifications from different online games, that female players have achieved, every day. Asking any female i know to play THIS GAME is out of my reach. Just ask yourself from the ladies you know if you want more girls in the forums.

During my games I've been asked if i'm a woman several times. Coz of my playername of course. And have even had one conversation ending "Goodnight sweetheart" without the (possible) guy even asking my gender.

I gotta give points to Nemora, whose comments were not only welcome but changed the direction this thread was heading.

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Post Wednesday, 23rd July 2014, 23:22

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TehDruid wrote: Not the occasional nerdy chick, which sadly, is a rare sight.


We're not rare.

On the internet, frequently we're not obvious.

We're assumed male. Sometimes, we might not correct people because we want to belong. Or it makes us safer. Because we wanted to be treated the same. Because we don't want to be harassed constantly.

We're driven out of communities. Many gaming/geek communities make their "no girls allowed" attitude clear.

We're not considered real geeks. Because...why? Because some of us like to cosplay? Or because we don't know a bunch of inane trivia? Because we're not openly participating in the community that's made it clear it doesn't want us?

I had the latter happen to me just a few days ago. My boyfriend is a big TCG player, and while I love TCGs as well, I checked out of the communities and playing other people because 1) the environments were toxic to me, and 2) I'm a sore loser. *grin* But one of his friends, while talking to me, asserts that I was not much of a gamer.

Uh... excuse me?

While he didn't mean anything bad by it, the assertion was there- because I didn't meet his standards for "geek" or "nerd" or, in this case "gamer," I must not be one.

I'm just going to go back and play some more DCSS while waiting for my dungeon queue to pop now.

Your assertions about what women apparently do and do not like about games like Crawl is, frankly, offensive. Because you're saying, "oh, if we want more women, we have to change the game." So you're pretty much saying, "this is not a problem we have to worry about." You dust off any personal accountability for yourself and the community at large- when I find the real problem is gaming communities themselves. Well, that and social acculturation that teaches girls that video gaming just isn't "for them." But gaming as a whole is rather complicit in that.

And sure, no one person has the ability to change a community, but we can change ourselves. We can change how we interact, how we talk, how we view others. And if you're a geeky guy who really makes a strong effort to make welcoming spaces for geeky women around you... you'll probably start seeing more geeky women around you.

Sphara wrote:Women who play roguelikes, do play because they like them.


Pretty much. :)

Again, I want to reemphasize that being visible in the community =/= playing a game or enjoying a fandom. There's many geeky things that I love with communities I don't like or participate in. Geeky communities are, I suspect, overrepresenting how many men actually enjoy said thing, because women are less likely to participate or be open about being female in spaces that are hostile to them.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:12

Re: how can we get more girls to play

thats a lot of info, tehdruid. Tl;dr tho.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:19

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TehDruid wrote:?????????

You made an unhelpful generalisation and were quite reasonably called out for it (and Nemora very clearly explained the exact problems with your generalisation). And your response to that is... denying that you made the generalisation that you very definitely made, and saying "I've never ever treated a girl badly in a game or online in general" but also you despise "sluts" who aren't "true girl gamers"? That is completely not acceptable, and it looks to me like treating girls badly online is, in fact, exactly what you are currently doing. Please stop. Like, really, just stop posting and actually think about the things you have been typing.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:28

Re: how can we get more girls to play

MarvinPA wrote:
TehDruid wrote:?????????

You made an unhelpful generalisation and were quite reasonably called out for it (and Nemora very clearly explained the exact problems with your generalisation). And your response to that is... denying that you made the generalisation that you very definitely made, and saying "I've never ever treated a girl badly in a game or online in general" but also you despise "sluts" who aren't "true girl gamers"? That is completely not acceptable, and it looks to me like treating girls badly online is, in fact, exactly what you are currently doing. Please stop. Like, really, just stop posting and actually think about the things you have been typing.

Please quote what the generalization is instead of question marks, so I know what the exact problem is.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:32

Re: how can we get more girls to play

@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?

Both you and Nemora have been quite quick to jump to conclusions about my character. I've already publicly apologized even though I meant no harm from the beginning and I never said the community is okay. I actually edited my post to add a paragraph about that, before seeing your comment.

Also, when I was talking about changing the game to be more appealing to women, I was speaking about DC:SS. Our little community I'd like to think is not misogynistic at all, so naturally I didn't think there's something to fix with it. In general, gaming communities do suffer from misogyny, I'm not denying that. However, women are pretty divided when it comes to gaming, a lot of them do play games that are considered "male" but many women also don't play specific games because they think they're catered towards males, without even trying them. Yes, there's lots of games that cater to a male demographic, with an immature tone towards women and glorifying aspects of life that are considered "male" since forever.

Again, not saying I agree with misogyny. I think the gaming industry as well as the player bases need to realize that women need to be treated better as consumers and fellow players. They're not meant to only play social/casual games.
Last edited by TehDruid on Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:41

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?


What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:49

Re: hilarious hippo videos

man arrhy remember when you posted that gif
what a load of fun that was

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:52

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Step 1: Sexist generalization.
Step 2: Even more sexist denial of how sexist Step 1 was.
Step 3: Progress...???

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:52

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Arrhythmia wrote:
TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?


What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.

I guess despise *is* a strong word. Excuse me, because, while my vocabulary may not be particularly shallow, my use of english may suffer from mistakes like this, since I'm not native to it. I'll just say that I dislike it. I never actually said anything bad to a girl that wants to do that, never went on their stream and spammed bad things about them, never left hate mail or anything. It's just my opinion. Good for them, in the end. Can I just not like it, please?
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:55

Re: hilarious hippo videos

dck wrote:man arrhy remember when you posted that gif
what a load of fun that was


I thought so too. no clue what the toilet was supposed to do but, well, here we are. the hippo video was v. good too
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 00:58

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Arrhythmia wrote:
TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?


What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.

Indeed. Quite out of character imho based on what else you've written too which for the most part seems to be kind, courteous and good-hearted. The anger over how others spend their time is very intense. Also the term "slut" is an example of the language I talked about earlier. I know girls/women use it too, but it is so toxic that it needs deletion from our vocabularies. Judging people on their sexual proclivities and or morays is fraught with disaster and bad feeling imho.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:00

Re: how can we get more girls to play

I've made it abundantly clear that I don't enjoy the industry and communities treating women as if they're lesser beings. You can keep assuming I'm sexist as much as you want, however that doesn't change the fact that I like having actively involved females in design as well as gaming.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:03

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Hopeless wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:
TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?


What, exactly, is the problem with this? And why does it strike such a chord with you that you "despise" them? That's really strong language for an act that, ultimately, doesn't affect you.

Indeed. Quite out of character imho based on what else you've written too which for the most part seems to be kind, courteous and good-hearted. The anger over how others spend their time is very intense. Also the term "slut" is an example of the language I talked about earlier. I know girls/women use it too, but it is so toxic that it needs deletion from our vocabularies. Judging people on their sexual proclivities and or morays is fraught with disaster and bad feeling imho.

I had to google fraught, proctivity and moray... :P
Okay, I'm being insanely apologetic to total strangers here and I don't care about my ego or anything. I just don't want to be misunderstood. I'm not on a high horse or anything. Yes, I shouldn't be using the word slut. I tend to abuse slurs in english but not in greek. :oops:
Last edited by TehDruid on Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:04

Re: how can we get more girls to play

oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:10

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Broken post for some reason, :( please delete.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:11

Re: how can we get more girls to play

dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives


Image

Does this work?
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:18

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Hopeless wrote:
dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives


Image

Does this work?

Hmmm... Hippopogryph. Good one.
And yes, apparently, it does work. :P
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 01:43

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TehDruid wrote:I've made it abundantly clear that I don't enjoy the industry and communities treating women as if they're lesser beings. You can keep assuming I'm sexist as much as you want, however that doesn't change the fact that I like having actively involved females in design as well as gaming.

I obviously believe that you understand that harassment is a problem, and weren't intending to be sexist, but the things you said really were still problematic. I don't think anyone here is trying to paint you as an unforgivable misogynist, but pointing out unwelcoming behaviour when it shows up should be encouraged in the hope that people can improve as a result. Saying "the Crawl community is pretty good so we don't need to change" doesn't help anyone, there's always going to be a ton of room to be more inclusive. So if someone can read this thread and realise that the things they say or the way they behave might actually be problematic sometimes (which is probably true for everyone whether they mean it to be or not), then hey, that's progress or something.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 02:14

Re: how can we get more girls to play

I actually know women who play on webtiles. And they're good too. But they don't advertise their gender because why? They are there to play a game. If someone what to judge them, judge them on their skill at the game. You don't need to know their gender to do that.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 06:48

Re: how can we get more girls to play

dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives

Did you know that in Africa hippos are the leading cause of death among people who thought they needed more hippos in their lives?

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 07:15

Re: how can we get more girls to play

dck wrote:oh wow i read a bit of this and lemme tell you arrhy people need more hippos in their lives


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLG2JP0P5JE

this ad is like, a touchstone among 20-something canadians. v. highly recommended for hippolyf.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 14:42

Re: how can we get more girls to play

While the tavern community can be a bit hostile at times, I've never seen it being hostile specifically toward women. Now, I'm sure I'll be called a terrible sexist for saying this, but maybe men are socially conditioned to put up with more open hostility than women? That would explain a lot of why women would prefer to maintain low visibility in internet gaming circles, which are notoriously hostile, as revealing any detail about yourself just gives people more ammo to use in their hostility. Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.

And I'd like to add on to a comment TDA made about white males (I know, poor us). While I don't think we as a group are 'not allowed' to talk about stuff like this, what I do think is that if a white male makes a statement that could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as bigoted, it's assumed that bigotry was intended. In other words, the burden of proof is on the white male to prove he is not a bigot, so it's safer for him to just keep his mouth shut.

On the other hand, if a 'minority' person makes a statement that could possibly be construed as bigoted, it's generally assumed bigotry was not the intention. If a non-minority person claims a statement was bigoted, the burden of proof is on that person. Usually just making such an accusation is enough to get a person written off as a bigot. Once again, an environment where the white male is better off keeping his mouth shut.

So this is why you see in conversations about these matters, a white male who doesn't want to be looked at as a bigot, but wishes to actually discuss the issue, has to perform various verbal gymnastics, and after every statement list their non-bigot credentials again. Which is why most of the time there's only a couple people actually discussing the matter, then everyone else jumps on every little thing that could possibly seen as bigoted, so everyone else knows they're NOT a bigot.

This makes a true discussion very difficult, because the very group being accused of creating a hostile environment cannot freely argue their view of the issue, while the other side is much more free to express their thoughts.

Of course, that's only true in an environment where the people are mostly reasonable and mature, i.e. environments where bigotry is considered a bad thing by the majority of the community (such as the tavern). If you try to bring up these kinds of issues in an immature and/or unreasonable environment, like gamefaqs forums or someplace similar, you'll get no discussion, just people competing to be the most offensive.

And of course, actual bigots exist, and even aside from the general hostility seen in gaming circles, there is a fair amount of hostility toward women. I assume most of that is from pathetic man-children (or actual children) who have so little actual accomplishment all they have to be proud of is their gender.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 15:41

Re: how can we get more girls to play

@Nemora: The parts that you did address about my post are things that any person with some common sense believes in, and I do too, so I didn't feel like I had to explicitly point them out, especially since they've been repeated a lot in this topic already, as well as in links provided by many insightful people. So, to that extent, I agree with both you and MarvinPA that the DC:SS community can always become better in different fields than misogyny, assuming that we lack in that field, which I hope! Of course we could invite our girl friends and acquaintances to get into DC:SS and defend their right to enjoy it without being worried about being hit on/bullied by the first guy they meet on the forums or webtiles or IRC. It's up to both males and females to make sure that we keep the community free from toxic people, by being honest when we see someone being a creep and/or a tool. But remember that this has to always extend towards both sexes, since people often forget that us guys also get offended/bullied or even assaulted by a few people within a gaming community. So, yeah, this whole thing is more of a community guideline than a reassuring nod towards women only. You should be kind to everyone in a community, regardless of their sex and race, at the very least, assuming they're kind (or at least neutral) to you. I was only saying that the DC:SS community hasn't shown any misogynistic tendencies, we're a bunch of mostly laid back people. Not that we can't improve our attitude towards users in general, or that we can't be more inviting towards female gamers. Just remember that DC:SS is an under appreciated gem by both sexes. I may be wrong about my assessment on why we lack girls on this specific community, but even if many of you are in hiding for fear of being harassed, I don't believe the ratio of male to female is close to 1:1. But that is just a guess.

I want girls/women to be accepted in every gaming community without fear of being harassed/bullied/alienated. They have different angles to offer to game development than their male counterparts, as well, since, biologically speaking, our brains are wired quite differently about many things, in the end. That's a different issue though. Anyway, If you think I need to be educated on whatever I'm ignorant about, assist me in bettering my self towards girls in gaming, so that you may see the difference that you seek to see in the community. :)

Also, when I mentioned a certain group of girl gamers using the s word, I forgot to add that my disliking them stems form the fact that I believe that they're part of the reason why girls as a whole aren't being taken seriously as gamers by many dudes. Shallow dudes that fail to see the bigger picture? Sure, I agree. These women, imho are undermining other women's fighting against ignorance and sexism. That's my only problem with them. I hope that clarified my perceived "hatred" towards them. I don't hate anyone.

I do take responsibility for using ugly words in my posts after the first one, I sometimes forget that some words are really offensive to some people, while I may be taking them lightly. Plus, saying ugly words in a different language than your native one comes more light-heartedly in my experience. I forget how the equivalent word would sound in my language to many greeks. I'm sorry about it. As much as the occasional "fuck" or similar crude language comes up on this forum, I should really remember that we're trying to keep it kid-friendly, even if the average DC:SS player may be close to 25 or so and is used to hear most offensive words. My sincerest apologies to everyone that was offended by the language I've used.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 16:55

Re: how can we get more girls to play

There's a pretty big difference between saying "Sigmund fucking killed me" and calling actual, real-life women "sluts". If you're genuinely unaware, "slut" is an extremely derogatory word for a woman who is more sexual than you approve of. Shaming women for having sex is a huge problem in nearly every culture today. In some places women are killed for having sex outside of marriage, even if they were raped. Calling a woman a "slut" is like calling a black person a "stupid nigger", or a gay man a "faggot". If you do it, you're going to be viewed as a sexist, racist, or homophobe. Because of the history and connotation of those words, they are extremely hurtful. Don't fucking do it.

damiac wrote:And I'd like to add on to a comment TDA made about white males (I know, poor us). While I don't think we as a group are 'not allowed' to talk about stuff like this, what I do think is that if a white male makes a statement that could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as bigoted, it's assumed that bigotry was intended. In other words, the burden of proof is on the white male to prove he is not a bigot, so it's safer for him to just keep his mouth shut.

On the other hand, if a 'minority' person makes a statement that could possibly be construed as bigoted, it's generally assumed bigotry was not the intention. If a non-minority person claims a statement was bigoted, the burden of proof is on that person. Usually just making such an accusation is enough to get a person written off as a bigot. Once again, an environment where the white male is better off keeping his mouth shut.

So this is why you see in conversations about these matters, a white male who doesn't want to be looked at as a bigot, but wishes to actually discuss the issue, has to perform various verbal gymnastics, and after every statement list their non-bigot credentials again. Which is why most of the time there's only a couple people actually discussing the matter, then everyone else jumps on every little thing that could possibly seen as bigoted, so everyone else knows they're NOT a bigot.
There are several white males in this thread who aren't going through those "verbal gymnastics" and aren't having any problems, because they haven't come out yelling "I'M A WHITE MALE YOU MUST HATE ME SO MUCH HURR DURR" and calling women "sluts".

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 17:19

Re: how can we get more girls to play

damiac wrote:While the tavern community can be a bit hostile at times, I've never seen it being hostile specifically toward women.

There's a difference between being hostile specifically to women and being a hostile (or just unwelcoming) space for women. Again, I don't think the tavern is particularly bad by the standards of gaming communities, but I do think it's at the very least a somewhat unwelcoming space for women. CYC is probably our worst forum in that regard, since many of the jokey comments are jokes that are only funny when the premise is that the author and reader and player base in general are male.

damiac wrote:Now, I'm sure I'll be called a terrible sexist for saying this, but maybe men are socially conditioned to put up with more open hostility than women?

Did you read the article that XuaXua posted above? Did you read Nemora's comments in this thread? It's easy to think that the negative treatment of women on the internet is identical to the negative treatment of men on the internet only if you haven't experienced the former or made any effort to find out what it's like.

damiac wrote:And I'd like to add on to a comment TDA made about white males (I know, poor us). While I don't think we as a group are 'not allowed' to talk about stuff like this, what I do think is that if a white male makes a statement that could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as bigoted, it's assumed that bigotry was intended. In other words, the burden of proof is on the white male to prove he is not a bigot, so it's safer for him to just keep his mouth shut.

I'd venture to guess that most people contributing in this thread aren't white men, and yet most aren't being called out for prejudice. There's a simple trick to it: if you avoid making prejudiced statements, you will rarely be called out for expressing prejudice, regardless of whether or not you have chosen to identify your race and gender.

damiac wrote:This makes a true discussion very difficult, because the very group being accused of creating a hostile environment cannot freely argue their view of the issue, while the other side is much more free to express their thoughts.

I don't think there's a specific group being accused of creating a hostile environment, at least in this discussion.

It may be true that people who go out of their way to identify as white men and then say things that are at least obviously ignorant of cultural power dynamics if not obviously bigoted don't get as much leeway as someone who belongs to a population that genuinely experiences oppression and yet is saying things that are similarly ignorant and/or bigoted, but at the heart of the issue is still what's actually being said. If you genuinely aren't bigoted and are worried about sounding ignorant and being misunderstood, even just an hour spent looking into the subject using Google (hint: try to find at least one piece written by someone who belongs to the community you want to make comments about) will probably do a lot to help you understand why this issue isn't being ignored by the people it affects.

White men are used to being listened to and deferred to when they talk about most topics regardless of their knowledge of that topic, and so it can be surprising and frustrating to run into a topic where one is held to a higher standard.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 17:38

Lock thread - at least for a few days?

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 17:48

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Why?

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 18:01

Re: how can we get more girls to play

TehDruid wrote:@MarvinPA: Are you denying the fact that there's girls out there (luckily not that many) that "play games" solely to make money off horny young males?


TehDruid wrote:Also, when I mentioned a certain group of girl gamers using the s word, I forgot to add that my disliking them stems form the fact that I believe that they're part of the reason why girls as a whole aren't being taken seriously as gamers by many dudes. Shallow dudes that fail to see the bigger picture? Sure, I agree. These women, imho are undermining other women's fighting against ignorance and sexism. That's my only problem with them. I hope that clarified my perceived "hatred" towards them. I don't hate anyone.


I don't really agree with this stance. Even if there are girls who do this (I don't know that many gamer communities), and you see it as a problem, I see no reason why they are to be blamed more than the "horny young males" who buy into it. Also, being hostile towards girls gamers in general because of perceiving some of them as to be "prostituting" themselves is just as crazy as saying "this woman seems like a prostitute to me, so all women must be prostitutes, so we must hate them all". People with such beliefs are the problem, and not the reputation of girl gamers with them.

But I agree that this is a difficult topic for non-native speakers to write about, as it is so delicate; I am having some problems myself.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 18:13

Re:

Turukano wrote:Lock thread - at least for a few days?


I don't see a compelling reason to lock, and I haven't received any report on any post in this thread. The topic is sensitive, and may make some people uncomfortable, but I don't think that reason alone would justify shutting down the conversation (even just temporarily).

___________________


One thing to keep in mind is that, even when there isn't any insidious or bigoted intent behind it, people often take offense (and justifiably so) when far-reaching generalizations are made about them. Here's one generalization that I think is completely fair: Most people don't like being lumped together and treated as if they were an indistinguishable part of an undifferentiated mass; this insults their dignity as an individual and their sense of self. This can be the case even when the person drawing the generalization is doing so with completely benign intentions. Just something to keep in mind, and a good reason to be careful of when and how one makes sweeping statements, especially ones that are constructed sloppily or hastily—and I think it is fair to say that most sweeping statements made on a random internet forum for a roguelike are not going to be particularly scientific or comprehensive treatments of their subject. (Of course plenty of generalizations are drawn with racist intent as well, but even when that's not the case, it may be totally reasonable for people to take exception to what was said.)

Furthermore, the words you choose to use and how you choose to act have consequences, sometimes significant consequences, regardless of the results one intended. It can be easy to pick up and use words in an ugly way, completely thoughtlessly—there's no malice behind it, its just the lingo or whatever amongst those you spend a lot of time with. You don't mean anything by it, in particular, and yet it makes others feel uneasy about things they should not be made to feel uneasy about.

In other words, there's more to the story than just what one intended. That's important, but it isn't everything. So try to be mindful of what you are saying, and how precisely you are saying it—not just why you are saying it.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 18:23

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Lasty wrote:White men are used to being listened to and deferred to when they talk about most topics regardless of their knowledge of that topic, and so it can be surprising and frustrating to run into a topic where one is held to a higher standard.


I don't know that I am used to be listened to and deferred to, but then, I guess I forget to mention that I'm a white male most of the time, so maybe I'm just missing out on all the bonus respect I'm supposed to be getting for no good reason. If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement. I must say, this statement in particular leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do. (I also think it's a bad thing to do, by the way). You don't know what I'm used to, you're making a racist and sexist generalization. Just one that's currently more acceptable to our society than most.

Lasty wrote:Did you read the article that XuaXua posted above? Did you read Nemora's comments in this thread? It's easy to think that the negative treatment of women on the internet is identical to the negative treatment of men on the internet only if you haven't experienced the former or made any effort to find out what it's like.


Damiac wrote:And of course, actual bigots exist, and even aside from the general hostility seen in gaming circles, there is a fair amount of hostility toward women. I assume most of that is from pathetic man-children (or actual children) who have so little actual accomplishment all they have to be proud of is their gender.


Did you read the post I made? Or did you just find a couple pieces to take out of context? It's easy to think that someone's being ignorant if haven't made any effort to read their entire post.


As far as Teh-Druid's unfortunate word choice, I think he's pretty clearly explained it was sort of a second language issue, and he's apologized for it. But I agree with the sentiment that the typical intent of the word is very sexist, and it's a word everyone (regardless of race or gender) should avoid using.

And I don't understand why anyone's calling for a thread lock here. It's remained quite civil, given the topic at hand is somewhat charged, and if you want people to be more aware of an issue, you have to allow conversation about it. I'm sure there are ways our community can improve in this regard, so it's good if we can all understand each other's viewpoints.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 19:11

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Related question:
Is there any good reason to want more people to play?

Can you enjoy the game as it is (and as it is becoming) without knowledge of how others percieve it, or of how many others enjoy it?

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 19:23

Re: how can we get more girls to play

It's pretty typical to want more people to join your community. But I think the topic's become more of "How can we be more welcoming to females". At least, that's what I'm taking as the constructive part of this thread.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 19:32

Re: how can we get more girls to play

damiac wrote:I don't know that I am used to be listened to and deferred to, but then, I guess I forget to mention that I'm a white male most of the time, so maybe I'm just missing out on all the bonus respect I'm supposed to be getting for no good reason. If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement. I must say, this statement in particular leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do. (I also think it's a bad thing to do, by the way). You don't know what I'm used to, you're making a racist and sexist generalization.


It's not actually a generalization about white men it's a generalization about how society treats white men and it's usually a pretty accurate one unless you actually live under the Robert Mugabe regime or in a minority white prison or something. For most of us white males we do "miss out" on what's really going on with race and gender because we don't *have* to think about it too hard, most of the time.

damiac wrote:If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement.

Lasty wrote:obviously ignorant of cultural power dynamics


damiac wrote:Just one that's currently more acceptable to our society than most.


No, dude, just no.

Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 19:38

Re: how can we get more girls to play

[
damiac wrote:Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.


it doesn't actually matter why they do it the effect is the same - "trolling" bigotry is functionally indistinguishable from the "real thing"

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 19:43

Re: how can we get more girls to play

damiac wrote:you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do.

You're right, I phrased that in a way that could be taken to be an unfair generalization. Let me take another pass at it: white men enjoy a place of privilege in most Western culture, but particularly within the United States. In the United States, people who aren't white men are often harassed, ignored, or even punished for speaking freely in a significant number of the contexts they find themselves in every day. White men are rarely harassed, ignored and punished for speaking their mind in the majority of their contexts, and are instead generally encouraged to speak their mind and deferred to. A relatively mild example of this that every woman I know has reported to me is having people ignore their opinions until those opinions are repeated moments later by a white man, at which point the opinions are praised for their insight. It's not hard to find much more nasty and dangerous examples with a moment's research.

While it's not true that every white man takes this particular aspect of their privilege for granted, many do, because it is rarely called out. When this (or any other) unnoticed privilege is suddenly absent, the person who suddenly has lost the privilege can feel outraged and marginalized, even if the privilege isn't being transferred to others, but is instead absent for all present.

damiac wrote:Now, I'm sure I'll be called a terrible sexist for saying this, but maybe men are socially conditioned to put up with more open hostility than women? That would explain a lot of why women would prefer to maintain low visibility in internet gaming circles, which are notoriously hostile, as revealing any detail about yourself just gives people more ammo to use in their hostility. Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.

Lasty wrote:Did you read the article that XuaXua posted above? Did you read Nemora's comments in this thread? It's easy to think that the negative treatment of women on the internet is identical to the negative treatment of men on the internet only if you haven't experienced the former or made any effort to find out what it's like.

Damiac wrote:And of course, actual bigots exist, and even aside from the general hostility seen in gaming circles, there is a fair amount of hostility toward women. I assume most of that is from pathetic man-children (or actual children) who have so little actual accomplishment all they have to be proud of is their gender

damiac wrote:Did you read the post I made? Or did you just find a couple pieces to take out of context? It's easy to think that someone's being ignorant if haven't made any effort to read their entire post.

You spent an entire paragraph advancing an argument that women are just aren't conditioned to put up with hostility and that they actually receive no more hostility than the average person from people on the internet. I responded by citing two salient and really easy-to-access sources talking about how the hostility faced by women on the internet is not the same. I responded directly to the actual point of your paragraph with a relevant response. I can't see how you think that's out of context.

I did see your mention that actual bigots exist. It's not clear how that acknowledgement interacts with your first-paragraph claim that women are actually getting the same level of harassment as men but just don't deal with it as well, since the two claims are mutually contradictory. I ignored it, because in context I read it as an attempt to shift blame for any actual bad behavior onto those people so that we don't need to acknowledge that there might be a pervasive issue in gaming communities, but if there's some other way to reconcile the claims that women get the same harassment as everyone else but that there is also a 'fair amount of hostility toward women' from 'pathetic man-children' I'd be interested to hear it.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 20:18

Re: how can we get more girls to play

zardo wrote:
damiac wrote:I don't know that I am used to be listened to and deferred to, but then, I guess I forget to mention that I'm a white male most of the time, so maybe I'm just missing out on all the bonus respect I'm supposed to be getting for no good reason. If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement. I must say, this statement in particular leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, as you're making negative assertions about a certain group of people who belong to a certain race and gender, in a thread where you previously indicated you think that's a very bad thing to do. (I also think it's a bad thing to do, by the way). You don't know what I'm used to, you're making a racist and sexist generalization.


It's not actually a generalization about white men it's a generalization about how society treats white men and it's usually a pretty accurate one unless you actually live under the Robert Mugabe regime or in a minority white prison or something. For most of us white males we do "miss out" on what's really going on with race and gender because we don't *have* to think about it too hard, most of the time.

damiac wrote:If I made a similar statement about any other group of people, it would be a prejudiced statement.

Lasty wrote:obviously ignorant of cultural power dynamics


damiac wrote:Just one that's currently more acceptable to our society than most.


No, dude, just no.

Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.


What does 'no, dude, just no' refer to? Blanket statements about races or genders aren't considered prejudiced? I disagree, and even the person who made the statement agreed it was an unfair generalization.

damiac wrote:Meaning, these people may not actually be specifically hostile toward women, instead they're just generally hostile, and will use whatever they think will get the biggest reaction. So, they'll be terrible chauvinists toward women, racist toward black people, ageist against young and old people, etc.


it doesn't actually matter why they do it the effect is the same - "trolling" bigotry is functionally indistinguishable from the "real thing"


I completely agree with this statement. My only point was that some people who appear to be sexist to women are actually just all around terrible people. I don't know if that's encouraging, of course.

You spent an entire paragraph advancing an argument that women are just aren't conditioned to put up with hostility and that they actually receive no more hostility than the average person from people on the internet. I responded by citing two salient and really easy-to-access sources talking about how the hostility faced by women on the internet is not the same. I responded directly to the actual point of your paragraph with a relevant response. I can't see how you think that's out of context.

I did see your mention that actual bigots exist. It's not clear how that acknowledgement interacts with your first-paragraph claim that women are actually getting the same level of harassment as men but just don't deal with it as well, since the two claims are mutually contradictory. I ignored it, because in context I read it as an attempt to shift blame for any actual bad behavior onto those people so that we don't need to acknowledge that there might be a pervasive issue in gaming communities, but if there's some other way to reconcile the claims that women get the same harassment as everyone else but that there is also a 'fair amount of hostility toward women' from 'pathetic man-children' I'd be interested to hear it.


Hmm, that's not exactly what I meant, so perhaps I need to restate more clearly what I did mean. I can see how those statements seem contradictory.
My meaning was that for all the hostility a women may feel on the internet, some of that hostility is felt by all people on the internet, but perhaps men are conditioned to be less sensitive to that particular hostility. That leaves a bunch of other hostility that is ONLY directed toward women, which I posited comes from those 'ignorant man-children'.

Both of those points only dealt with intentional hostility, which I understand is only a fraction of the entire problem. I didn't mean to indicate that these things represent the entirety of problems women face in gaming circles, or the internet in general. Societal problems tend to be very difficult, because the status quo has a lot of inertia.

So my statements weren't at all intended to say 'There is no problem' or 'Women are just being overly sensitive'. Our society is unfair to a lot of groups, and it's fair to say that white males face much less 'unfairness' than other groups. I would be very happy if everyone could just be treated right, and if we (meaning the tavern community) are doing something that is unfair toward women, I'd like to know, so we can stop.

The other stuff lasty said

I agree with the way you restated this. Yes, white men face less unfair harassment and punishment, and yes, it is wrong. Nobody should be unfairly harassed or punished. A woman's opinion should hold just as much weight as a man's opinion. Yes, this is a problem we, as a society, need to fix if we truly want to be the fair society we claim to be. I am aware that a woman holding a strong opinion is viewed more negatively than a man holding a strong opinion. Everything to do with society's treatment of women's sexuality is maddeningly absurd and unfair. Black people are treated ridiculously badly by police, as well as a fair amount of otherwise normal seeming people. Our society is far from perfect, and I have no illusions to the contrary.

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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 21:20

Re: how can we get more girls to play

zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.


I couldn't agree with this more.

Perpetually, whenever these discussions come up- no matter the community- I hear, time and time again, that the problems are caused by the "small but vocal majority." And I have never, in my experience, found that to be true. We have a habit of thinking that sexism or racism or other isms are only really perpetrated by the terrible bigots. And people have a bad habit of jumping from "someone said what I did was sexist" to "they're saying I'm a sexist," which apparently means "they think I'm a terrible bigot" because apparently sexism is only perpetrated by the terrible bigots. It's not.

Yes, there are some that are extremely vocal and virulent about their hate- but it is actually microagressions that typically show me what a community thinks of my belonging there. Frequently, these are people who'd never think that they were doing something sexist/racist/etc. but... their actions, in small ways, tell me otherwise. When people say the problems are perpetrated by a few, they're shoving off the blame and not listening to how they, personally, could do better.

One thing that people need to acknowledge is that, thanks to the social power structures we're acculturated with from birth, all of us have, on some level, absorbed some amount of sexism or racism or homophobia, etc. And even when we're doing our best to dismantle that, we're going to make mistakes. So when we do make mistakes, we need to be willing to 1) acknowledge that we fucked up, 2) apologize, 3) listen, 4) work to do better in the future, 5) accept that our mistake might have pissed some people off and admit to ourselves that they have a good reason for that, and 6) not get defensive even in the face of that anger.

For this message the author Nemora has received thanks: 6
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 22:05

Re: how can we get more girls to play

I think we could get more females to play if DCSS were enhanced to have a "drop and never pick up again" command.
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Post Thursday, 24th July 2014, 22:12

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Nemora wrote:
zardo wrote:Anyway the real point is that the problem isn't all those "actual bigots" it's also the vastly greater number of reasonable normal people who refuse to believe that they could be part of the problem. It's not actually a dire moral failing to say something that reflects one or two of the many, many racist thoughts floating out there in the world that one might pick up, but intentions *don't* count in the grand scheme of things and when getting called out it's so much better to learn something than to get in a snit about it.


I couldn't agree with this more.

Perpetually, whenever these discussions come up- no matter the community- I hear, time and time again, that the problems are caused by the "small but vocal majority." And I have never, in my experience, found that to be true. We have a habit of thinking that sexism or racism or other isms are only really perpetrated by the terrible bigots. And people have a bad habit of jumping from "someone said what I did was sexist" to "they're saying I'm a sexist," which apparently means "they think I'm a terrible bigot" because apparently sexism is only perpetrated by the terrible bigots. It's not.

Yes, there are some that are extremely vocal and virulent about their hate- but it is actually microagressions that typically show me what a community thinks of my belonging there. Frequently, these are people who'd never think that they were doing something sexist/racist/etc. but... their actions, in small ways, tell me otherwise. When people say the problems are perpetrated by a few, they're shoving off the blame and not listening to how they, personally, could do better.

One thing that people need to acknowledge is that, thanks to the social power structures we're acculturated with from birth, all of us have, on some level, absorbed some amount of sexism or racism or homophobia, etc. And even when we're doing our best to dismantle that, we're going to make mistakes. So when we do make mistakes, we need to be willing to 1) acknowledge that we fucked up, 2) apologize, 3) listen, 4) work to do better in the future, 5) accept that our mistake might have pissed some people off and admit to ourselves that they have a good reason for that, and 6) not get defensive even in the face of that anger.


Well put. Blame usually gets in the way of taking responsibility. As does guilt. It is important to recognize a wrong and to rectify it without compounding it with denial and guilty remorse. (The guilt feelings are natural but unproductive if they don't move you to rectify the situation. And once that is done they are unnecessary and out of place.)
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