Halfling Apt changes

[Klown]

Read that Halfling apts got changed a bit 'to be more defensive' .
What are it's new apts?
Tried hopping onto webtiles but it's less accessible than Dwarf Fortress.

[Sar]

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=51651a60cfc2d46ded99003395e0c86880f9c17e

  Code:

Nudge halfling apts slightly.

The goal is to make them a bit more distinguished from kobolds, by
focusing a bit more on defenses (especially armour more) and lowering
the stealth apt fairly significantly. If Armour +1 is too good it
could be lowered, though.

  Code:

-    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_ARMOUR,         -2),
-    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_DODGING,         2),
-    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_STEALTH,         4),
+    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_ARMOUR,          1),
+    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_DODGING,         1),
+    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_STEALTH,         1),

  Code:

-    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_EVOCATIONS,      2),
+    APT(SP_HALFLING,        SK_EVOCATIONS,      1),

[crate]

it's pretty much just a nerf since halfling has no str to speak of so heavy armour sucks for them

"oh hey a plate armour! too bad my hask has 9 str"

[Sjohara]

As much as I'm usually not in favor of species/background removals, I'm genuinely surprised every time I remember that Halflings still exist.

[damiac]

Dodging from 2 to 1
Stealth from 4 to 1
armor from -1 to 1 EDIT: -2 to 1 actually
evocations from 2 to 1

This seems like overall a big nerf. And since most halflings are relying on dodging over armor, it makes them less defensive.

I will agree, halflings are totally redundant with Kobolds. And mutation resistance rank 1 is a pretty useless effect as well.

[tasonir]

Minor correction: armor went from -2 to +1, but yeah, doesn't seem like bringing down dodging and evocations as well is that worth it.

[Klown]

As much as I'm usually not in favor of species/background removals, I'm genuinely surprised every time I remember that Halflings still exist.

Personally, I hate the Kobold flavor. The enemy looks like a rabid dog walking on two legs, the player version is Halfling 2.0 with wolf face & gourmand 0.15 useless/eliminated.
At least the Halfling has the Shire to go home to after grabbing the Orb.

[TeshiAlair]

Honestly, I'd differentiate them by making Ha being the higher Fi/HP race, given their generally hardy lore.

[Bart]

New apts made halflings blander than they used to be. Dodging +1 and armour +1 is almost mundane. Nerfed stealth makes them no longer great stabbers (and again, more mundane). Lowered evocations apt looks to me like a change for the sake of changing.

Overall, a boring species was made even less interesting. Please, remove halflings completely and use the space for something new.

[Patashu]

Halfling Dev Guide
1) nerf halflings so no one can bear to play as one
2) remove halflings 'no one could bear to play as one'

[Sprucery]

Just give them some more str to compensate and to take advantage of that armour aptitude. They're small but sturdy, you know.

[Klown]

Remove Kobolds, Charms, Ghouls, and Mummies!

[mopl]

it's pretty much just a nerf since halfling has no str to speak of so heavy armour sucks for them

"oh hey a plate armour! too bad my hask has 9 str"

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/mopl/morgue ... 142546.txt

[zrn]

Halfling Dev Guide
1) nerf halflings so no one can bear to play as one
2) remove halflings 'no one could bear to play as one'

Ruin everything, remove everything, have a perfect game.

[damiac]

Let's merge halflings and kobolds into Hakaflingbolds.

They're half-halfling (so like a quarter ling) and half kobold.
They're carnivorous, but can't eat chunks, and get the worst of halfling and kobold aptitudes. Also for some reason they get RC- and RM-
They are all illiterate, so they can't read scrolls, and can only learn spells through divine gifts.
They also have a 2% chance to fall down any staircase, causing 1 permanent HP loss.
New most objectively fun race!

[crate]

it's pretty much just a nerf since halfling has no str to speak of so heavy armour sucks for them

"oh hey a plate armour! too bad my hask has 9 str"

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/mopl/morgue ... 142546.txt

yes congrats you picked one of the two backgrounds that has some str, kind of (and even then you still only start with at most 14 str, which is still less than you want for plate armour in most cases)

i did that too, recently

If halflings had more str than, for example, deep elves, possibly this change would make sense. But since they do not have more str than deep elves, there's no sense in trying to encourage heavy armour on halflings (which is the only way a positive armour apt would mean much)

interestingly, kobolds have almost-decent str (only 1 less starting str than human) and actually gets str on levelup, sometimes.....

[Bart]

interestingly, kobolds have almost-decent str (only 1 less starting str than human) and actually gets str on levelup, sometimes.....

Don't worry, either their strength will be lowered soon or kobolds will be removed at all to encourage us to enjoy new Halfling more.

[sanka]

I would rather remove STR's effect on heavy armour. Armour selection is interesting, except that with many races you will use light, because you do not have the STR for plate. So I think that more balanced armour selection is more important than balanced stats.

[Patashu]

I would rather remove STR's effect on heavy armour. Armour selection is interesting, except that with many races you will use light, because you do not have the STR for plate. So I think that more balanced armour selection is more important than balanced stats.

And if we remove STR's effect on heavy armour STR will still be useful because...?

[Guppyfry]

To make the changes make more sense they could swap kobold and halfling strength (7 and 5 currently) and fighting apts (+1 and -1).

Then halflings would need to be weakened somewhere else, maybe -10%MP? And then the kobolds would need something to help them out, maybe rot resistance? Poison resistance?

[XuaXua]

Here's an idea for HAlflings:

Give them more strength and even better armour apts because Frodo once found that magic chainmail, and skill with axes because they build things with wood and some Earth Magic skill because they tend to live in holes under ground.

Then rename them to Dwarves

[damiac]

To make the changes make more sense they could swap kobold and halfling strength (7 and 5 currently) and fighting apts (+1 and -1).

Then halflings would need to be weakened somewhere else, maybe -10%MP? And then the kobolds would need something to help them out, maybe rot resistance? Poison resistance?

Here's an idea for HAlflings:

Give them more strength and even better armour apts because Frodo once found that magic chainmail, and skill with axes because they build things with wood and some Earth Magic skill because they tend to live in holes under ground.

Then rename them to Dwarves

You know... this isn't a crazy idea (aside from the LoR tie ins). With these apt changes, it does feel like halflings are turning into dwarves. Since halflings barely even exist in the game as monsters, why not just rename them to dwarves? Now people can play as a dwarf that can heal, kobolds are more of their own thing, and who really cares about losing halflings?

Or, implement quarterlings, which are half-halfling, and half half dwarf. Who knows what the other 2 quarters are.

[Toxic Community]

Here's an idea for HAlflings:

Give them more strength and even better armour apts because Frodo once found that magic chainmail, and skill with axes because they build things with wood and some Earth Magic skill because they tend to live in holes under ground.

Then rename them to Dwarves

Funny, when I read about the halfling apt changes, dwarfs were the first thing that came to mind...

[Klown]

Bad Luck Halfling

[duvessa]

my god

[Hirsch I]

yay, the tavern is becoming something between facebook and 9gag.

[ontoclasm]

Hey guys did you know there are armours between robes and plate?? Apparently it's true!

[cerebovssquire]

yay, the tavern is becoming something between facebook and 9gag.

thank this post if you think MD shouldn't of been removed!!

[duvessa]

Hey guys did you know there are armours between robes and plate?? Apparently it's true!

no. crate, one of the best crawl players in the world, didnt know that there are more than two items in the game. luckily you, the smart, enlightened developer, with an orange name, are here to show him the error of his ways and that you are better

EDIT: Please remain civil. - lucy_ferre

[XuaXua]

Hey guys did you know there are armours between robes and plate?? Apparently it's true!

no. crate, one of the best crawl players in the world, didnt know that there are more than two items in the game. luckily you, the smart, enlightened developer, with an orange name, are here to show him the error of his ways and that you are better

Well then, it's a damn good thing he told crate because I saw you inching up to take crate down as you obviously knew about this secret "mid-armour" conspiracy, and crate should use any advantage he can get at this point to keep his status.

[damiac]

Hey guys did you know there are armours between robes and plate?? Apparently it's true!

no. crate, one of the best crawl players in the world, didnt know that there are more than two items in the game. luckily you, the smart, enlightened developer, with an orange name, are here to show him the error of his ways and that you are better

Snark and Rude just had a baby.

[crate]

Do you legitimately think that changing halfling armour apt from -2 to +1 makes ring mail a better choice for them? It doesn't--ring mail is still inferior to leather or robe for Ha, unless you find an atypically good one (at least +4, usually) (and see my comment about FDA below, since it applies here)

SteamDA/MDA aren't a big thing here since you can't assume you can find them, and you wanted to wear them before anyway so nothing changed (the apt differences are basically meaningless in this specific situation).

The only reason for changing Ha armour apt is to try to make heavy armours more appealing. Specifically, the only armours I'd be more likely to wear with current Ha compared to old Ha are plate and CPA and storm dragon armour (well and I guess GDA but that's complete garbage on either version so). The lighter armours were already good. All you've done for things like ring mail/MDA/FDA is shift one or two points of EV into one or two points of AC. This doesn't actually change the race at all. Plate actually benefits from the better armour apt, but it's unwearable since Ha has no str to speak of (and plate needs to be really good for Ha to want to wear it: it has a bigger EV penalty because of halfling being small).

And of course the decrease in dodging, stealth, and evo apts is a straight nerf to halflings wearing most light armours ... and since the armour apt barely matters (as I've explained), it's pretty much just a straight-up nerf. I'm not complaining about that (Ha is quite powerful either way) but trying to paint it as anything else is ridiculous.

I don't think this is a bad direction to take the species (Ha was already a defense-focused race anyway) but really it should've been accompanied by making Ha not have the second lowest str in the game (behind only felids, who obviously have less use for str than other races anyway).

[tabstorm]

If anything I think it would make more sense to do this to Kobolds

[ElderVIII]

So... halflings. Yeah, I've never found a reason where if I wanted to play a small dodgy fighter to pick Ha over Ko. Sounds like the developers took my crazy plan from WoW of building a halfling tank.

But, yeah, how to make halflings more unique...

1. Receive half stealth penalties when wearing non-metal armours.
2. On receiving elemental, poison, or magic effects, a chance to gain one pip of that resistance for a set period of time. Make it occur less often than Quezlal's passive, say 20%.
3. On taking 50% or more of max HP in damage in a single hit, chance to gain Swiftness, turn Invisible, or both (20% chance for any one of the three to procc).

Stats:

HP: -10% of average Max HP (+0 Fighting)

[duvessa]

ha is already better than ko at everything

[Klown]

ha is already better than ko at everything

Remove Ko!!!!!!!!

#goblins-for-0.15

[Reptisaurus]

Are they still losing sustenance, too? I play a lot of Halflings and I never saw them as game breakers that needed these huge power-downs. Boo.

[Reptisaurus]

They've got all these weird contradictory attributes ANYWAY, - good shields + small size, decent long blades + cant' use a lot of long blades - and armor + low strength plus huge decrease in other scores feels like it's gonna tip them into unplayability.

And did slings get nerfed in trunk? Is that what they're saying on the other board? Man, poor little guys have really taken a beating.

[headcrab0803]

And did slings get nerfed in trunk? Is that what they're saying on the other board? Man, poor little guys have really taken a beating.

I think range combat in general got buffed while slings didn't really benefit a lot from the buff compared to others

[Patashu]

And did slings get nerfed in trunk? Is that what they're saying on the other board? Man, poor little guys have really taken a beating.

I think range combat in general got buffed while slings didn't really benefit a lot from the buff compared to others

To clarify, slings weren't nerfed intentionally, the ranged combat reform was made completely not testing the balance at all - throwing, bows and xbows got buffed, slings got shafted. I think the devs are too busy with chunkless/etc to fix this right now.

[Tiktacy]

Obviously the devs are trying to fill the (tiny) hole in our heart from one of crawls past removals.

[XuaXua]

Obviously the devs are trying to fill the (tiny) hole in our heart from one of crawls past removals.

Sludge Elves?

[Kaeoschassis]

Obviously the devs are trying to fill the (tiny) hole in our heart from one of crawls past removals.

Sludge Elves?

OHGOD why would you bring that up again. I was doing so well!

I need to go be alone for awhile, sorry...

[tasonir]

At least I got a win with a sludge elf before they were removed! I never won a MD! It's a black mark upon my soul to this very day...

SE's made great transmuters. Of course so do merfolk, who they're pretty much identical to minus the swimming, but hey.

[Leafsnail]

SE's made pretty bad everythings due to their horrible HP, IIRC.

[Sprucery]

SE's made pretty bad everythings due to their horrible HP, IIRC.

True.

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.1.2 (crawl-ref) character file.


Sener the Elf of Death

Race       : Sludge Elf         Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : . 
Class      : Necromancer        Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : + 
Worship    : Kikubaaqudgha      Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : + 
Level      :      27            Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : + 
Exp        : 1723516            Res.Elec. : .       Gourmand   : . 
                 
                                Sust.Abil.: .       Rnd.Telep. : . 
Spls.Left  :       5            Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: . 
Gold       :    4707            Res.Slow  : .       Levitation : + 
                                Clarity   : .       Ctrl.Flight: . 
HP         : 118
MP         :  47/48
Str        :  11                Weapon : staff of death
Int        :  32                Armour : +3 robe (resist)
Dex        :  19                Shield :
AC         :  17                Helmet : +2 plumed helm
Evasion    :  19                Cloak  : +2 cloak (preserve)
Shield     :   0                Gloves : +2 pair of gloves (str)
                                Boots  : +2 pair of boots (levitate)
Play time  : 1, 16:49:51        Amulet : amulet of warding
Turns      :     238080         Ring   : ring of protection from fire
                                Ring   : +5 ring of intelligence


You escaped.
You worship Kikubaaqudgha.
Kikubaaqudgha is exalted by your worship.
You are full.



In that game I used Borgnjor's Revivification several times though, I estimated to have about 20 hp less because of that.

[SchwaWarrior]

They also have a 2% chance to fall down any staircase, causing 1 permanent HP loss.

Don't joke about this, some of us have this inherent mutation in real life

[Kaeoschassis]

They also have a 2% chance to fall down any staircase, causing 1 permanent HP loss.

Don't joke about this, some of us have this inherent mutation in real life

I wonder if next they'll include a mutation that just gives you a flat 5% chance to fall over for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
That would make me feel a lot better...