Breadswinging Reform


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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 09:05

Breadswinging Reform

Everything related to breadswinging is silly. For those that don't know, you get HP regeneration every aut (e: or whatever, you know what I mean), but you're only charged one turn per action; therefore, if you can do something slow and repetitive, like swinging bread or any other non-weapon, you'll gain more HP per turn. And it's terrible. It's just terrible. Every time I see a speedrunner do it I wonder how many hours of their total crawl time have been eaten by swinging bread or scrolls of fog.

My solution is simple: remove breadswinging and its ilk, but in exchange, remove a level of Lair, or 2 levels of each Lair branch, or 2 levels of each Hell. Or just remove breadswinging and slightly buff HP regen. Or just remove it because it's awful, I feel so bad watching people do it.
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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 09:25

Re: Breadswinging Reform

archaeo wrote:Everything related to breadswinging is silly. For those that don't know, you get HP regeneration every aut (e: or whatever, you know what I mean), but you're only charged one turn per action; therefore, if you can do something slow and repetitive, like swinging bread or any other non-weapon, you'll gain more HP per turn.

This no longer works in modern Crawl. If it still works, it is a bug and can be reported as such.
(Taking slow steps to regen faster also no longer works. Again, the amount you can regen is capped at 10 auts, e.g. if you do an 11 aut action you regen as much as 10 auts' worth.)

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Barkeep

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 10:01

Re: Breadswinging Reform

If it in fact doesn't work then instead of "Breadswinging Reform" this thread should be titled "Please Stop Breadswinging, It Really Stresses Me Out, Just Hit 5 Man, Please, and Also It Doesn't Do Anything."

But I have seen all kinds of good speedrunners do this, so if they're misinformed somebody should let them know.

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 12:30

Re: Breadswinging Reform

The actual problem here is turn-based scoring -- just change your proposal to "Remove Haste Spell and Spider Form" and then it will be easy to make it aut-based!

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 12:52

Re: Breadswinging Reform

wheals wrote:The actual problem here is turn-based scoring -- just change your proposal to "Remove Haste Spell and Spider Form" and then it will be easy to make it aut-based!

And spriggans, centaurs, batform, felids... I dunno, I'm not seeing any downsides yet!

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 14:31

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Well, Trog, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good.
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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 15:12

Re: Breadswinging Reform

archaeo wrote:Everything related to breadswinging is silly. For those that don't know, you get HP regeneration every aut (e: or whatever, you know what I mean), but you're only charged one turn per action; therefore, if you can do something slow and repetitive, like swinging bread or any other non-weapon, you'll gain more HP per turn. And it's terrible. It's just terrible. Every time I see a speedrunner do it I wonder how many hours of their total crawl time have been eaten by swinging bread or scrolls of fog.

My solution is simple: remove breadswinging and its ilk, but in exchange, remove a level of Lair, or 2 levels of each Lair branch, or 2 levels of each Hell. Or just remove breadswinging and slightly buff HP regen. Or just remove it because it's awful, I feel so bad watching people do it.


You can swing my bread anytime archaeo.
Spoiler: show
>:V=3

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 19:27

Re: Breadswinging Reform

I could be wrong, but I believe that descending (and probably ascending) stairs still has this problem? I have a pretty high regeneration character, who tends to get back 1-2 hp per turn, but I gained 4 hp going down stairs. Is that just because it counts one turn above and one turn below, or is it using the time it takes to do stairs? Does taking a stairway count as 2 turns in your turncount for scoring purposes?

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Post Monday, 19th May 2014, 22:20

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Patashu wrote:
wheals wrote:The actual problem here is turn-based scoring -- just change your proposal to "Remove Haste Spell and Spider Form" and then it will be easy to make it aut-based!

And spriggans, centaurs, batform, felids... I dunno, I'm not seeing any downsides yet!


cerebovssquire wrote:Well, Trog, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good.


Trog says, "Kill them all!"
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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 01:06

Re: Breadswinging Reform

wheals wrote:The actual problem here is turn-based scoring -- just change your proposal to "Remove Haste Spell and Spider Form" and then it will be easy to make it aut-based!

OK but then why not just take the turns out of the game and convert fully to auts??

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 01:14

Re: Breadswinging Reform

why not indeed
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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 01:36

Re: Breadswinging Reform

tasonir wrote:I could be wrong, but I believe that descending (and probably ascending) stairs still has this problem? I have a pretty high regeneration character, who tends to get back 1-2 hp per turn, but I gained 4 hp going down stairs. Is that just because it counts one turn above and one turn below, or is it using the time it takes to do stairs? Does taking a stairway count as 2 turns in your turncount for scoring purposes?

Taking the stairs has two parts:
1) A getting-dressed/eating-food style delay (1 aut if unburdened 2 auts if burdened, modified by haste/slow)
2) A normal turn (1.333... auts if it's a new level 0.666... auts if it's not, randomly rounded, modified by haste/slow)
So you are probably getting regeneration for the delay then regeneration for the normal turn, but it probably counts as two in-game turns for speedrun purposes.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 07:31

Re: Breadswinging Reform

I just want to note that breadswinging does in fact work. Wizmode up a guy, try it out.

Of course gammafunk just told me it isn't exactly a trivial problem to fix and this is a hypermarginal part of the game, so man, I guess just keep swinging that bread bros.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 08:00

Re: Breadswinging Reform

archaeo wrote:Of course gammafunk just told me it isn't exactly a trivial problem to fix and this is a hypermarginal part of the game, so man, I guess just keep swinging that bread bros.


Yes, and I don't mean to imply that no one will fix the regen/turns/aut/score problem, it's just not all that high on the priority list. Regen manipulation like that isn't really required for most turncount speedruns; I didn't use bread-swinging on a 15-rune I completed in 49K turns. It's more important for the very fastest melee speedruns, however, where you have lots of HP to regen. There has been a proposal to reform these things, and as always community patches are welcome, provided that they're correct and well thought-out (not-well-thought-out "fixes" are easy to devise here, unfortunately).

So we're aware of the issue, and we plan to fix it at some point, but we're prioritizing important things like reforming food consumption, inventory management, and item destruction.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 08:52

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Wait what?? I thought the fix was already implemented and it was just
-If you take an action that lasts more than 10 auts,
-Only regenerate for 10 auts
(This is exactly how it was explained for me btw)

Should I make a patch for it then?

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 09:19

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Patashu wrote:Wait what?? I thought the fix was already implemented and it was just
-If you take an action that lasts more than 10 auts,
-Only regenerate for 10 auts
(This is exactly how it was explained for me btw)

Should I make a patch for it then?


Well that would penalize the regen-rate while moving for slow-moving species/forms/Cheibriados worshipers. If you have slow movement, one turn will necessarily take more than 10 aut, possibly even 20 aut. You'd be cutting the movement-based regen of Cheibrodos worshipers in half, which would be pretty annoying for them. I don't think we want to require slow-moving players to be stationary in order to get proper regen. I think the best solution is aut-based scoring, like what wheals alluded to, since it would both remove the tracking/display of turns as well as regen shenanigans. It's not a trivial thing to fix/implement, and will likely involve species-specific modifiers and possibly some extra internal tracking, but it's a pretty solvable problem.
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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 09:20

Re: Breadswinging Reform

gammafunk wrote:Well that would penalize the regen-rate while moving for slow-moving species/forms/Cheibriados worshipers. If you have slow movement, one turn will necessarily take more than 10 aut, possibly even 20 aut. You'd be cutting the movement-based regen of Cheibrodos worshipers in half, which would be pretty annoying for them.

But their movement based regen is already cut in half... (I was also told that before even 0.10, regeneration due to moving around was capped at 10 auts of regeneration, so you couldn't move around burdened to regenerate faster yet taking the same amount of speedrun turns)

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 09:52

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Patashu wrote:
gammafunk wrote:Well that would penalize the regen-rate while moving for slow-moving species/forms/Cheibriados worshipers. If you have slow movement, one turn will necessarily take more than 10 aut, possibly even 20 aut. You'd be cutting the movement-based regen of Cheibrodos worshipers in half, which would be pretty annoying for them.

But their movement based regen is already cut in half... (I was also told that before even 0.10, regeneration due to moving around was capped at 10 auts of regeneration, so you couldn't move around burdened to regenerate faster yet taking the same amount of speedrun turns)


That does seem to be the (unfortunate) case, so thanks for pointing that out. That penalty won't be (as) relevant for long, however, since we're removing burden states and inventory weight entirely. Basically, we just need to move to aut-based scoring to avoid the breakage that scoring off of player turns causes. I'd rather fix that larger issue than apply more band-aids at this point. Since it looks like this regen/turn/score thing has been the source of even more little tweaks and fixes than I'd thought, I'll make that my next thing to address after getting weightless finalized and merged in trunk.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 10:02

Re: Breadswinging Reform

The regen cap when moving isn't for burden specifically, it's to prevent Nagas and Cheibriados worshippers from hungering extra fast: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... b208b7eb89

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 21:47

Re: Breadswinging Reform

If you move to aut based scoring, wouldn't that singlehandedly destroy any attempt at getting high scores with nagas/Chei? Considering that Chei is currently fairly good for this*, that seems like a *lot* of collateral damage.

*Troll monk of chei took top score in .14 tournment: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/4t ... 200821.txt

The commit linked above does explain how I was able to regen 5hp a "turn" on my regen-based octopode. By casting regeneration in statue form, 1.5 turns pass and I'm not moving, so the full 1.5 turns were used for my regeneration.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 22:04

Re: Breadswinging Reform

tasonir wrote:If you move to aut based scoring, wouldn't that singlehandedly destroy any attempt at getting high scores with nagas/Chei?
yes

i dont see the problem here

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 22:32

Re: Breadswinging Reform

duvessa wrote:
tasonir wrote:If you move to aut based scoring, wouldn't that singlehandedly destroy any attempt at getting high scores with nagas/Chei?
yes

i dont see the problem here

I'm going to need a "scold user for this post" button.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 23:47

Re: Breadswinging Reform

You have one. It's the one shaped like !.

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Post Tuesday, 20th May 2014, 23:54

Re: Breadswinging Reform

duvessa wrote:
tasonir wrote:If you move to aut based scoring, wouldn't that singlehandedly destroy any attempt at getting high scores with nagas/Chei?
yes

i dont see the problem here


Chei does not like speedruns anyway, just ask him.

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 00:28

Re: Breadswinging Reform

But it isn't a speed run - you still walk very slowly. You just walk the shortest distance to the end :)
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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 00:46

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Chei wins would just need a final divisor to GameAut:
  Code:
if you.god == "Cheibriados" { WinningAut = GameAut/(2-(AutAtJoiningChei/GameAut)) }

GameAut - What the Aut counter at the end of the game was.
AutAtJoiningChei - What the Aut counter was at when you joined Chei.

If we're to be technical then you don't always move at 20 aut - and your actions certainly aren't twice as long, so Chei games would actually have an increased score over non-Chei games.
But then again,
duvessa wrote:i dont see the problem here
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 12:27

archaeo wrote:Everything related to breadswinging is silly.

Getting poisoned in early game isn't as lethal any longer as it used to be - but still dangerous. If I can save my char (or one of few pots curing) with swinging I'll do it.

archaeo wrote:Every time I see a speedrunner do it I wonder how many hours of their total crawl time have been eaten by swinging bread or scrolls of fog.

It's not much. Inventory management takes much more time.

*******

Some thoughts about speedrunning:

Speedrunning is one of the challenges you may look for after winning some games. Other ideas are streaks or winning with every species e.g.

For me speedrunning is by far the most interesting challenge. According to bart this means getting 15 runes in < 60 k turns, and there are some more players who agree to this definition.

When you go for speedruns, you don't want to waste 100 turns for nothing. Pressing '5' 20 times loses 2 k turns in worst case - that's about the same time in which you can clear the elven halls with related XP and items.

archaeo wrote:Just Hit 5 Man

I would like to do this. The point is that I don't have any influence on the '5' button. I would like to adjust '5' in my rc-file like

  Code:
### proposal for a new variable
resting_turns = 100  # default

so I can adjust this to 20 or 30 turns e.g.

I already had a similar topic last year (Did repeat command '0' change?). I don't want to run around with 3 HP or something on D:1 but with some more HP it's ok. So unless I don't have the possibility to adjust the '5' command I press 's' as often as I want it.

*******

Related question @devs: is it possible to implement this above mentioned function? I think it'll be a variable in source code instead of a constant (100). This would be a great help for me.

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 13:44

Re:

Turukano wrote: According to bart this means getting 15 runes in < 60 k turns, and there are some more players who agree to this definition.

Huh, I don't remember giving such definition.

Scoring dependent on aut count seems silly to me. Promoting faster moving species is not interesting at all. Travelling through water, casting haste, using boots of running and transformations affecting movement speed should not have serious impact on scoring. Of course current system is not perfect (e.g. promotes slow weapons), but still far more interesting and balanced than aut-scoring would be.

Back to original problem: Healing rate bound directly to auts is bad for the reason of bread swinging. Binding it to turns is also terrible (spriggan wielding quickblade anyone?). I had a dream of crawl being a game where resting is mostly irrelevant - together with Bloax we suggested increasing regen over resting time. This would not only solve problem of strange movement gimmicks, but also help characters not lucky enough to get regeneration source. The proposal was rejected because of interfering with current philosophy too much. Unfortunately I do not see cleaner solution. Having regeneration ticking once every turn unless action took less than 10aut has nothing to do with elegance.

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 14:24

Re:

Turukano wrote:
archaeo wrote:Everything related to breadswinging is silly.

Getting poisoned in early game isn't as lethal any longer as it used to be - but still dangerous. If I can save my char (or one of few pots curing) with swinging I'll do it.

If anything it's more dangerous, because the difference between "your health is somewhat low" and "you are at 3 hp" isn't that big - and with poison being hyperactive compared to its previous incarnation it's going to drop you down to the latter category much faster than before; not to mention that you may still be trying to kill something whilst this is happening!

Oh, and breadswinging won't save you here - since for poison to be deterministic (for things like the handy "this is how poisoned you are" bar) it will always apply the amount of damage it was going to apply, and making time go by faster to speed up your regeneration will likewise speed up its process of draining your health. Breadswinging does shorten the delay between "You are poisoned" and "You are not poisoned" though!
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 14:56

Re:

I hate to be a lemon, but I'm going to be a lemon. I'm not trying to snipe Turukano but a few people seem to think of this the wrong way, in my opinion.

Turukano wrote:Speedrunning is one of the challenges you may look for after winning some games. Other ideas are streaks or winning with every species e.g.


What is speedrunning? If you mean low turn count - that's held by DDHe pacifist crew. If you mean fastest real-time wins that's held by either some bot or some crazy dude with fast fingers. What you really mean is high-scorers. People who min-max to get highscores, and it so happens to be a combination of 15 runes and a low turn count. In fact if we completely change the way scoring is, we would still have high-scorers. They don't particularly HAVE to be bound to turns OR runes for that matter.

but that's just being pedantic i guess so lets just assume high-score is "speedrun" (so I don't seem inconsistent later)

Turukano wrote:For me speedrunning is by far the most interesting challenge.


that's fine.

Turukano wrote:According to bart this means getting 15 runes in < 60 k turns, and there are some more players who agree to this definition.


This isn't a definition. See above. We can define highscores, we can define streaks, lowest turn count, etc. etc. but 15 runes < 60k is as meaningful as 3 runes >500k.

Turukano wrote:When you go for speedruns, you don't want to waste 100 turns for nothing. Pressing '5' 20 times loses 2 k turns in worst case - that's about the same time in which you can clear the elven halls with related XP and items.


sorta agree, but then again there isn't gigantic skill required in not resting and exploring. All you are doing is pushing your luck and getting rewarded for it, this is the same as gambling. Not saying you shouldn't be rewarded for it, or what you are saying is wrong. But from what I interpret it, there seems an implication (maybe not by you) that not resting and exploring = skill.

archaeo wrote:Just Hit 5 Man


For the wide majority this is how it should be.

While some speedruns do exploit regen and staff smacking and such, a lot of them do other min-max stuff by evaluating risk vs reward. E.g. exploring with low health instead of resting in order to find stairs/items while gaining hp, using items efficiently because you're more likely to get into trouble in a "speedrun" compared to a normal run, knowing how to skip unnecessary things while maximizing exp, and all that other stuff that people don't normally think of doing. And none of this is particularly good or bad, skilled or unskilled. Its just the way it is because that's just how the way scoring works! Why do some people do it better than others, well if you notice those people who do partake in speedruns generally they do play a LOT more games than other players of similar-ish skill level (here by skill I mean tactical decisions).

You will notice that Bart is a bit different, his runs are a bit more consistent be it due to a higher skill level, or a satisfaction with taking less risks and leaning towards winning more - I'm not sure, but whatever it is, its working.
Speedrunning is a challenge, and it does put you in situations where you have to make clutch decisions in order to succeed. But the same sort of clutch decisions are made in streaks or tournaments or like any type of challenge. In fact, I am fairly certain that some one who is relatively good at this game can be put in a similar scenario that a "speedrunner" gets into and make a similar decision.

Turn-based speedruns exist because the scoring system has been created that way. No matter how you change scoring, speedrunners (or more correctly high-scorers) will invent new ways and means to be efficient. Changing way scoring works IMO won't do much, it will piss people off who are used to it, sure. but the same people will probably get over it and find a different way to min-max and get highscores anyway. Because a prerequisite to being a speedrunner is also being pretty good at the game or at least having the mentality/thirst of getting high-scores or being just a crazy gambler dude.

Personally, I can't be bothered with speedruns or streaks or w/e because I kinda suck at this game. BUT VC???? WHY DO YOU TRYHARD? Cause I like highscores, not "15 runes < 60k" runs. It so happens to be that the two are linked.
Last edited by vengefulcarrot on Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler: show
>:V=3

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 15:08

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Patashu wrote:This no longer works in modern Crawl. If it still works, it is a bug and can be reported as such.
(Taking slow steps to regen faster also no longer works. Again, the amount you can regen is capped at 10 auts, e.g. if you do an 11 aut action you regen as much as 10 auts' worth.)

Swinging the dark maul seven times regens much more than walking seven steps, so it still works.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 18:23

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Bloax wrote:Swinging the dark maul seven times regens much more than walking seven steps, so it still works.


I now fully support autcount rather than turncount for the sole reason of (hopefully preemptively) preventing 2pro4u Dark Maul speedruns.
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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 18:30

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Aut based scoring would really put a premium on Haste, cTele etc. Also it'd give Spriggans an unfair advantage over all other races in scoring as well as other things. High score will always be Spriggan that got cBlink and/or Haste early.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 18:32

Re: Breadswinging Reform

I think high score is already always that Spriggan that got cBlink and/or Haste early.

I'd argue to axe Haste before using Haste as a reason to encourage breadswinging.
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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 18:50

Re: Breadswinging Reform

I don't know if you're just mocking bcadren but Yermak has the #3 and #6 highscores of all time with a SpEn/As of Dith, and neither have cBlink nor Haste.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 19:03

Re: Breadswinging Reform

I'm not mocking bcadren at all.

I may have overstated things, but still, Spriggan is really good, Haste is really good, and CBlink is really good.

Also, I legitimately oppose the existence of Haste as a player spell. Kiting and constant prebuffing are both bad enough already.
Wins: DsWz(6), DDNe(4), HuIE(5), HuFE(4), MiBe(3)

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3160

Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52

Post Wednesday, 21st May 2014, 19:20

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Maybe the real takeaway here is that basing score on turns taken is silly because it's so plastic and unreliable. Other possible metrics that might encourage similar gameplay: least XP on victory; least health/mana regenerated; least number of tiles viewed.

For this message the author Lasty has received thanks: 3
duvessa, Igxfl, Rast

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 30th May 2014, 18:49

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Is it possible to have any melee attack take exactly 10 auts if there are no invisible hostile monsters in LoS and there are no adjacent hostile monsters ? That would somewhat solve the problem IMHO.
For polearms the second condition would need to be changed to "no hostile monsters 0-1 tiles away".

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8682

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 30th May 2014, 18:52

Re: Breadswinging Reform

attacking thin air used to take 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay
this was specifically and intentionally changed

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Friday, 30th May 2014, 18:58

Re: Breadswinging Reform

duvessa wrote:attacking thin air used to take 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay
this was specifically and intentionally changed


Just yesterday I was spectating a player breadswinging on CSZO trunk. Is it useless now?
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Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1891

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: Toronto, Canada

Post Friday, 30th May 2014, 19:01

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Sandman25 wrote:
duvessa wrote:attacking thin air used to take 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay
this was specifically and intentionally changed


Just yesterday I was spectating a player breadswinging on CSZO trunk. Is it useless now?


CSZO does what CSZO fuckin' wants.
take it easy

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8682

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Friday, 30th May 2014, 19:03

Re: Breadswinging Reform

Sandman25 wrote:
duvessa wrote:attacking thin air used to take 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay
this was specifically and intentionally changed


Just yesterday I was spectating a player breadswinging on CSZO trunk. Is it useless now?
attacking thin air took 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay in the past
this was changed and attacking thin air no longer takes 10 aut regardless of your normal attack delay

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Sandman25

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