A completely serious response to 0.15: "SERIOUSLY?!"

[Knight9910]

When Grunt said that Crawl was perfect and all further updates would just mess it up, I thought he was joking. Then I looked at the current changelist for 0.15.

Followers of good gods no longer get a chance to turn holy enemies neutral.

So encountering holy monsters is now forced penance. Gotcha. Oh, and the good gods look even MORE like insane evil hypocrites.

Manticores now move as fast as the player.

Because manticores desperately needed to be EVEN MORE deadly. You already can't run from them without dying from barb damage, do they really need a speed buff too?

Komodo dragons now bite harder but don't sicken the player.

Okay, serious question. Why do komodos even exist anymore? Without sickness they're just buffed up iguanas. why not just let them go along with the giant goldfish?

The Book of War Chants is no more.
Removed spells: Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, Lethal Infusion, Poison Weapon, Summon Elemental.
[...]
Scrolls of brand weapon can no longer affix brands.

Ah, I was wondering what else we needed in our quest to destroy character customization forever. The ability to create viable weapons to your own specifications! Just a few more updates and we'll finally be free of that pesky "control over your own gameplay experience" crap that's been plaguing this game for so long!

[netkitten]

Followers of good gods no longer get a chance to turn holy enemies neutral.

So encountering holy monsters is now forced penance. Gotcha. Oh, and the good gods look even MORE like insane evil hypocrites.

i wonder, if you worship tso if you can make your angels kill mennas... totally makes sense flavor-wise

[DracheReborn]

1. Actually, good gods don't give penance for killing HOSTILE holy enemies. So it's actually a good god buff, since you can now get holy pan as a good god worshipper.

2. Ah, but manticores lost the ability to open doors to compensate!

3. Komodos were nerfed, and you're still complaining? Don't worry, Lair is bound to lose some more monster types.

4. Just scum Trog/Oka/Xom until he gives you the perfect artifact gift. No need for pesky customization! (Aside: if smithgod ever lands, he'll give you all the customization you could ever want)

[TeshiAlair]

1. W/e
2. Wait, manticores are considered hard?
3. lol y
4. Scrolls of brand weapon were mind bogglingly stupid given their rarity and the likelihood of getting a far better weapon by the time you could attach a weak brand. I mean, you could always inscribe your weapons with a badass description if you want to customize them I suppose.

[sgrunt]

I mean, you could always inscribe your weapons with a badass description if you want to customize them I suppose.

To wit.

[Leafsnail]

you can now get holy pan as a good god worshipper.

And, just to be clear, you think this is a desirable thing?

[shizmoo]

Why get rid of brand scroll. I always use it on the weapon im going to fully enchant and make a holy blade.

[TeshiAlair]

Wait, how do you holy blade it? There's no ench spell that holies it.

Also, brand weapon still exists in its interesting form.

[DracheReborn]

you can now get holy pan as a good god worshipper.

And, just to be clear, you think this is a desirable thing?

More interesting than endless demons anyway? If you want a serious answer, it's "doesn't matter"

Wait, how do you holy blade it? There's no ench spell that holies it.

TSO? So of course TSO overrides the brand anyway...

[Sar]

Followers of good gods no longer get a chance to turn holy enemies neutral.

I actually sort of hate this one because it was a nice and flavourful thing that never was overpowered or too silly, but it didn't mess anything up.
Besides it made it so Holy Pan didn't exist for my Pan-diving TSO followers, which I was okay with since Holy Pan is awful (I know shedu, probably the worst offender, are being removed, but they weren't the only awful monster there).

Edit: Well okay I guess it was also silly in Zigs, the ones that mixed a neutral apis in monster list, but who even cares about Zigs?

[shizmoo]

you can now get holy pan as a good god worshipper.

And, just to be clear, you think this is a desirable thing?

More interesting than endless demons anyway? If you want a serious answer, it's "doesn't matter"

Wait, how do you holy blade it? There's no ench spell that holies it.

TSO? So of course TSO overrides the brand anyway...

Having a brand before overriding is better than no brand

[cerebovssquire]

Komodo dragons now bite harder but don't sicken the player. Okay, serious question. Why do komodos even exist anymore? Without sickness they're just buffed up iguanas. why not just let them go along with the giant goldfish?

It's not like komodo dragons were much more than buffed up iguanas (or yaks, or whatever) because sickness didn't do much other than make you press 5 a couple more times. You could probably remove them, yes, but that also applies to their old state because they've essentially always been another boring speed 10 melee monster in lair.

[DracheReborn]

Having a brand before overriding is better than no brand

You still get vorpal brand with brand weapon though.

[NessOnett]

Komodo dragons now bite harder but don't sicken the player.

Okay, serious question. Why do komodos even exist anymore? Without sickness they're just buffed up iguanas. why not just let them go along with the giant goldfish?

You're missing the bigger issue. This is ANOTHER blatant nerf to mummies!

[dck]

more like another reason to remove ko

[Sar]

but I like ko

[Ajonos]

Ah, I was wondering what else we needed in our quest to destroy character customization forever. The ability to create viable weapons to your own specifications! Just a few more updates and we'll finally be free of that pesky "control over your own gameplay experience" crap that's been plaguing this game for so long!

Methinks you are playing the wrong game if you want "control over your own gameplay experience" in the game that's all about randomness and doing the best with the hands you're dealt.

Not that there's anything wrong with that as a design goal, it just isn't the design goal that this game has been operating under. Ever.

[dck]

but I like ko

well lets kill ha then

[sgrunt]

well lets kill ha then

Merge into sludge dwarves.

Or kill both and bring back gnomes.

[and into]

Upon request, I split off the posts discussing holy enemies and moved them to a new home in GDD. If you want to share your thoughts on holy enemies, you can do so here:

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12312

[shizmoo]

Having a brand before overriding is better than no brand

You still get vorpal brand with brand weapon though.

I dont understand your objection, yes if its unbranded which is still better than no brand doing more damage.

[Knight9910]

Here's another complaint/question I have about 0.15:

Is it just me or does Qazlal the Stormbringer seem obscenely powerful? Also, is it just me or does it seem like he kind of has a lot of overlap with/overshadowing of Mahkleb?

[TeshiAlair]

Qazlal is very swingy from what I've experienced so far.

Eh, the HP on kill from Mahkleb is HUGELY important. I mean, for better or more likely for worse, I think thats Mahkleb's main appeal.

[Klown]

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

[khalil]

Here's another complaint/question I have about 0.15:

Is it just me or does Qazlal the Stormbringer seem obscenely powerful? Also, is it just me or does it seem like he kind of has a lot of overlap with/overshadowing of Mahkleb?

Nah. Malk gives HP on kill, whereas Qazlal turns spider into a complete clusterfuck.

[dck]

i was kidding ko are approximately a million times better than ha and should live

[gammafunk]

gnomes

When grunt?!

[headcrab0803]

ha is really flavorless but then we have no any other viable longblade user in the realm of smalldudes

[cerebovssquire]

Considering that you don't need more than ~14 skill in long blades as a small species (no claymores/great swords), aptitudes don't matter much. Crosstraining makes them matter even less for many characters. And it's not like there is a big difference between Ha and Ko apts in the first place.

[shizmoo]

Komodo dragons now bite harder but don't sicken the player.

Okay, serious question. Why do komodos even exist anymore? Without sickness they're just buffed up iguanas. why not just let them go along with the giant goldfish?

You're missing the bigger issue. This is ANOTHER blatant nerf to mummies!

Why are mummys hated so much in this game? Worst attributes, weakness to most used/dangerous element/etc.. All because they have no hunger clock????? Mummys need love too

[Viashino_wizard]

Seriously, just give Ko all of Ha's better apts (including -1 HP) and delete hobbits.

Why are mummys hated so much in this game? Worst attributes, weakness to most used/dangerous element/etc.. All because they have no hunger clock????? Mummys need love too

I don't know if Mummies were originally intended to be the biggest challenge race, but it's kind of their identity know.

[Knight9910]

Back in Linley's Dungeon Crawl the lack of a hunger clock was actually kind of a big deal. Permafood was way more rare, and eating contaminated chunks without an amulet of the gourmand was a terrible idea, so starving was a lot more of a worry. (Or maybe I just remember it that way because I wasn't as good at the game back then?) The fact that mummies didn't have to worry about starving was a big enough thing to warrant giving them several heavy weaknesses.

But now that we're in Stone Soup...

1. Permafood is far more common.
2. Contaminated chunks are no longer dangerous.
3. Vampires are ALSO immune to starvation, while also getting huge bonuses and way less weaknesses.

The mummy race's one big strength (no hunger clock) is pretty much a non-issue. They seriously need a buff. Maybe give them life draining, or the ability to cause fear as a natural ability? That'd be cool.

[Knight9910]

Oh, also...

1. Actually, good gods don't give penance for killing HOSTILE holy enemies.

Ely does. She gives penance if you even so much as HIT a holy being, let alone kill it.

[NessOnett]

Back in Linley's Dungeon Crawl the lack of a hunger clock was actually kind of a big deal. Permafood was way more rare, and eating contaminated chunks without an amulet of the gourmand was a terrible idea, so starving was a lot more of a worry. (Or maybe I just remember it that way because I wasn't as good at the game back then?) The fact that mummies didn't have to worry about starving was a big enough thing to warrant giving them several heavy weaknesses.

But now that we're in Stone Soup...

1. Permafood is far more common.
2. Contaminated chunks are no longer dangerous.
3. Vampires are ALSO immune to starvation, while also getting huge bonuses and way less weaknesses.

The mummy race's one big strength (no hunger clock) is pretty much a non-issue. They seriously need a buff. Maybe give them life draining, or the ability to cause fear as a natural ability? That'd be cool.

...Or just give them some skill aptitudes so they don't suck at EVERYTHING!

[mikee]

Food wasn't an issue in linley's dungeon crawl either; contaminated chunks worked the same as they did in dcss not that long ago (they gave a delightful debuff that stopped natural health regen, just an annoyance unless you use curing). Instead of food vaults there was hive, which had 999999 food items.

The only change in the OP that I care about much is giving komodo dragons more damage to 'compensate' for losing sickness on hit. I don't think the sickness did much to actually make them dangerous (rather than gross and annoying), but komodo dragons already had very high damage and defenses for an early lair monster. I think all that giving them even more damage does is maintain the desire to avoid meleeing them, which to me isn't a good thing.

[Knight9910]

IIRC, contaminated chunks caused nausea which made it so you got no nutrition from that chunk and also you couldn't eat anymore. Getting nausea while starving (or even nearly starving) was certain death unless you had a potion of curing you were okay with wasting.

Of course, you could also refill your hunger bar by drinking back then. More than once I had to save a character from starvation by drinking a fountain dry.

The way I remember it, once you reached the Hive food was no longer an issue at all thanks to the five billion honeycombs and royal jellies there, but before you reached the Hive hunger was a big problem thanks to super-rare permafood and the aforementioned nausea effect, especially for spellcasters. Most of my spellcasters spent their time permanently stuck on "nearly starving" or worse, desperately searching for bats and mice to fight off starvation. I lost more than a few of them to hunger well before even reaching the Lair, let alone the Hive.

Though to be fair, like I said before, it's entirely possible that I just sucked at the game back then.

[duvessa]

IIRC, contaminated chunks caused nausea which made it so you got no nutrition from that chunk and also you couldn't eat anymore. Getting nausea while starving (or even nearly starving) was certain death unless you had a potion of curing you were okay with wasting.

nausea as you described it has never existed in any version of the game, and nausea as you didn't describe it has only existed in DCSS

Though to be fair, like I said before, it's entirely possible that I just sucked at the game back then.

sounds more like you didnt play it

[Knight9910]

I made a point of avoiding contaminated chunks at all cost... I could swear, though, that I remember eating contaminated chunks and not being able to eat anymore.

[DracheReborn]

Oh, also...

1. Actually, good gods don't give penance for killing HOSTILE holy enemies.

Ely does. She gives penance if you even so much as HIT a holy being, let alone kill it.

All good gods give you penance for attacking NEUTRAL holy beings. But Ely (and the rest) don't give you penance for killing HOSTILE holies. Try it for yourself.

[netkitten]

Back in Linley's Dungeon Crawl the lack of a hunger clock was actually kind of a big deal. Permafood was way more rare, and eating contaminated chunks without an amulet of the gourmand was a terrible idea, so starving was a lot more of a worry. (Or maybe I just remember it that way because I wasn't as good at the game back then?) The fact that mummies didn't have to worry about starving was a big enough thing to warrant giving them several heavy weaknesses.

But now that we're in Stone Soup...

1. Permafood is far more common.
2. Contaminated chunks are no longer dangerous.
3. Vampires are ALSO immune to starvation, while also getting huge bonuses and way less weaknesses.

The mummy race's one big strength (no hunger clock) is pretty much a non-issue. They seriously need a buff. Maybe give them life draining, or the ability to cause fear as a natural ability? That'd be cool.

afaik anti-scum ood spawn mechanics was added in dcss only and mummies could nearly endlessly scum floors before
i am not sure because ood spawns were added very long ago

mummies always were weak in dcss, yeah

p.s. vampires don't restore hp when bloodless unlike mummies

[duvessa]

The "real" OOD timer was added in 0.6. There was one before but it had very little effect (it was something like "increase maximum monster depth by 5 after 1000 turns"), so yes, you could scum any level endlessly with mummies.

Lack of hunger was never much of an advantage outside of this scumming, in fact it was probably even less useful back then than it is now, though mummies are still worse now for other reasons.

[savageorange]

I made a point of avoiding contaminated chunks at all cost... I could swear, though, that I remember eating contaminated chunks and not being able to eat anymore.

You couldn't eat chunks while nauseated. Eating permafood was fine.

[Magipi]

I made a point of avoiding contaminated chunks at all cost... I could swear, though, that I remember eating contaminated chunks and not being able to eat anymore.

You couldn't eat chunks while nauseated. Eating permafood was fine.

No, you are wrong.

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Nausea

[Knight9910]

0.13... wow, nausea was removed that recently? Geez, shows how much attention I've been paying...

[Leafsnail]

Prior to nausea you got actual sickness from contaminated chunks, which was really annoying.

[Roderic]

I'm finding trolls, scorpions, ants, sky and ice beasts at level 4... srsly?

[Galefury]

Wohoo nausea is gone. It still feels good.

[Hirsch I]

the game is better than it ever was, IMO.
why do people love rambling?