Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage


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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 08:06

Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Move Meph Cloud/Toxic Radiance/Poisonous Clod to Conj/Hex/Air, Hex, Conj/Hex/Air respectively

Remove every other poison spells please
Poison Arrow? It is just long ranged iron shot to mobs without rPois.
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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 12:34

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

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Post Friday, 25th November 2016, 15:33

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

papilio wrote:Move Meph Cloud/Toxic Radiance/Poisonous Clod to Conj/Hex/Air, Hex, Conj/Hex/Air respectively

Remove every other poison spells please
Poison Arrow? It is just long ranged iron shot to mobs without rPois.

While you're clear about what your suggesting, which is good, you neglect to mention why you think this would be a good idea.

It would be helpful if you elaborated why you thought this would be good.
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Post Saturday, 26th November 2016, 22:02

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Because it is a good idea

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Post Sunday, 27th November 2016, 04:51

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Well I'm sold. Dunno bout the rest of you.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 02:22

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Poison magic is horrifying useless during/past mid. Picking this school in the first place is like saying "yeah, I want to get my ass handed to me later on really, really hard."

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 02:25

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

poot112 wrote:Poison magic is horrifying useless during/past mid. Picking this school in the first place is like saying "yeah, I want to get my ass handed to me later on really, really hard."


Venom Mages are fucking terrible in early games as well.
Player ghosts, wyvern zombie, black mambas, spiny frogs, ... nuff said.

All Poison spells except MephCloud/ToxicRadiance/PoisonCloud/Ignite Poison are useless or characterless,
so they don't need to be in independent "element-like magic school".

Sting is arguably the worst starting spell among the ones of mage backgrounds.

Venom Bolt and Poison Arrow are completely wrongly designed spells.
Poison magic's identity is (or should be) DOT damage,
but players just use them because of their high damage output on strike against monsters without rPois.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 07:00

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

papilio wrote:
Venom Mages are fucking terrible in early games as well.
Player ghosts, wyvern zombie, black mambas, spiny frogs, ... nuff said.

None of those are in what is usually labeled "early game".

Usually, "early" means pre lair.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 12:48

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

There still is the fact that, if you enter the Ossuarium or whatever it's called, as a VM you are weaponless. That's early game.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 15:57

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Well, if you didn't bring a weapon.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 16:27

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

"Just a long range iron shot"

Generally poison is used to kill large quantities of things that do not resist it very quickly with minimal effort, you can test this in real life with a little free time and a can of RAID.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 16:48

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

I think my biggest issue with poison magic is that its essentially a dead-end waste of XP. Every other schools has something higher up that is always useful. Deflect missiles, ring of flames, and Death's Door for charms, cblink for translocations, necromutation for transmutation/necro (and other things too), all the various level 9 nukes, discord and darkness for hexes, Dragon's call and spellforged for summoning.

Poison Magic is the only school that is pretty much a complete waste unless you are Ashenzari. The high aptitudes that some species have for poison magic don't even matter because you would never train poison magic high enough to see good returns on the high Apt unless you had brain damage/eye trouble and thought you were training a different school.

As far as that start/early game there are at least three mage backgrounds (IE, FE, Cj) with exactly same stat distribution that are easier starts and Wz gives mephitic anyway.

I don't think venom mage should be removed. I don't see a good reason to remove something people use. But all in all its not good and I hate investing in poison magic for anything because I feel like I am throwing XP away. I wish spider form wasn't split school simply because of this. At least with ice form I can justify that is overlaps with Ozo Armor. But spider form is a basically pissing away skill XP.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 17:10

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

LCS is just a short range iron shot with more damage

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 20:13

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Lasty wrote:Well, if you didn't bring a weapon.


Have you tried killing mummies with +0 whip and alike? I wonder how you train skills for VM before Ossuary if you don't have problems with the portal.
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:09

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Yes, but I'd prefer a +0 spear, +0 trident, or +0 flail, or +0 falchion. Have you tried it? It's not that bad.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:18

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Lasty wrote:Yes, but I'd prefer a +0 spear, +0 trident, or +0 flail, or +0 falchion. Have you tried it? It's not that bad.


Yes, I remember having to use some consumables when I tried it.

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Defending:      9,6 |     20 |      50% |   4,8 |   166  |  0,60 |      2,9
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:40

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Have you tried killing mummies with +0 whip and alike? I wonder how you train skills for VM before Ossuary if you don't have problems with the portal.

Well, of course you would have been training weapon skills as a VM before finding that ossuary. I mean, what else would you train, poison magic?

As for this thread, here's another recap on why I think VM/PM is terrible: Young Kiter's Handbook, two different rP-checking confusion spells in that book, having to run away from nearly everything any other mage background would run away from (and more), Poison Arrow is distinctly inferior to the alternative (and please don't start with the "it kills non-rP stuff" nonsense, that would only be an argument if non-rP stuff existed which they don't), Poison Cloud is distinctly inferior to the alternative though I expect the recent level adjustment to fix this, rP is handed to every monster like candy as part of "standard resistances" (why are there standard resistances? do ice fiends or devas need to be poison-resistant any more than orange demons?), Necromancy occupies the "great but selective early offense that is resisted by a lot of things late game" niche much better and has amazing support spells to make up for the lack of damage against demons/unliving (while PM gets no support spells).

And here's some old ideas on how PM could at least become an actual spell school before its inherent issues (read: rewarding tedious behavior in a game that hates rewarding tedious behavior) can be considered: Air/Poison asphyxiation spell in starting book with damage + shallow water-like fumbling effect on spells (ties in with the school because it's DoT and usable largely on the living), asphyxiation effect added to Poisonous Cloud, poison stacks extended to at least 8 so that you can fire and forget on some enemies instead of poison kite kite poison klte kite poison repeat (requires a concurrent Ignite Poison nerf), spell that heals you whenever a thing dies with poison counters on it, spell that buffs you considerably in return for poisoning you, at least one of Borgnjor's Revivification/Death's Door moved to poison (easy to retheme both spells, Necromancy really doesn't need four level 8 spells and two different emergency buttons within these), remove rP from a considerable number of demons, holies etc. so that Poison Arrow becomes "great offense against a select number of top threats, but not to be used against others" instead of "great offense against orb guardians and basically nothing else you'd want to cast a level 6 spell on", more poison support spells in general.

This has been your regularly scheduled PM wall-of-text rant. See in you in the next "remove PM" thread.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:42

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Croases wrote:Well, of course you would have been training weapon skills as a VM before finding that ossuary. I mean, what else would you train, poison magic?


Yes, poison magic and conjurations. Why would I start as VM if I wanted to ignore those?
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:45

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Why would I start as VM

Good question! Random character choice? Going for a greatrace and want to get the worst book starts out of the way first?

I can't think of any other reason.

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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 21:50

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

why wouldn't you start as Be/IE
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 22:01

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Has some sort of curare bolt ever been considered?
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 22:01

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Croases wrote:I can't think of any other reason.


Maybe to enjoy fun spells and unique playstyle?
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Post Tuesday, 29th November 2016, 22:05

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

I think that poison (on both ends, but i'm talking here about the status/damage type as it effects enemies) is a poorly designed mechanic in that it is just another xtra damage brand except that you have to lure enemies in order to get that xtra damage, instead of just getting it up front (as is the case w/ ice fire etc). So it's bad because it's redundant and encourages undesirable tactics, not because it is weak.

I don't mind that all starts are not equally powerful, and I like starts that force the player to make character-building decisions early. Necromancer is a cool background because (unless you take kiku) you have to find a way to kill rn enemies (edit: and enemies that are too big to kill w/ vamp draining/pain). I actually like the VM start b/c it gives you tools to deal w/ a lot of the usual threats while having obvious weaknesses that you need to plan around. But the game would be better without poison.

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 01:22

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Maybe they could change it to a corrosion or blight class instead of poison. Debuff and damage at the same time instead of becoming dogshit useless and a waste of skill points at nearly the moment you enter the entrance to the dungeon. Call it a "corrupter" or something like in Tales of Maj'Eyal.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 06:47

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Counterpoint - Venom Mage is quite a strong background.

You will generally have meph cloud online before the end of D:1 which can carry you up to lair with careful play.

You have a spell which is not just smite targeted, but affects every enemy on the screen to boot.

And a bolt spell, which does far more damage than the only other bolt spell in a starting book.

The other starting books have a bunch of level four/five spells that are either single target or weirdly fiddly to use. Animate dead only works if you have corpses. LRD does big damage but you need to maneuver enemies next to a wall. Lightning bolt does crap damage at low spellpower unless you position your enemy so it gets hit twice. Fireball only works at range, and sticky flame only works on adjacent enemies.

Meanwhile, the upper level venom mage spells are point, shoot, kill. You can wipe out entire packs of killer bees with one cast.

And if you happen to find ignite poison it's point, shoot, do damage that approaches what you can do with a level nine spell with much less investment (but over several turns.)

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 06:54

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Give Poison School some level 8s and a level 9 spell comparable to Glaciate/Firestorm/Shatter/Tornado and while you're at it, add some more lvl 8s and a level 9 for Hexes too.

But of course you're not going to do that especially for Hexes. Spell school discrimination seems to be the norm here.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 09:02

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

It's not really "discrimination", hexes doesn't need a level 9 spell. (Arguably, no school needs a level 9 spell.)

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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 11:24

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Shard1697 wrote:(Arguably, no school needs a level 9 spell.)


Let's hear it. Charms ----> Hexes ----> Poison in this order usually gets neglected and are always treated as side spell schools to never train past level 10 or even worse, not at all especially for the last 2 unless you're playing an enchanter or your race has a high Hex apt while Poison only has Poison arrow going for it and like the others have said ,is basically just a long ranged iron shot; truly a lazily designed spell. Poison cloud is irrelevant past 3 runes. I think it's safe to label it as a lvl 6 magic dart since I'm not keen on wasting 6 spell slots only to DOT a couple of demonspawn packs. Discord is not even good compared to its peer level 8 spells to be worth that huge chunk of exp.

IMO attractive Level 8/9 spells should be on all spell schools so high int chars have more options on where to heavily invest on instead of the usual, repetitive, very few and restrictive mostly damage based spells we have now. And no, you don't add new attractive ones (Infestation) in an already attractive spell school where Regeneration and Necromutation are located. It's like adding another level 9 conjuration spell for Fire Magic when it's unnecessary, already strong and just worsening the problem with spell school bias.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 14:16

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Well, hexes has a (quite good) level 8 spell - and quite a few lower level spells that are useful all game, which makes up for the lack of hexostorm or hexnado.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 16:24

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Remove requests for removals for one month cooldown.

There's already an apparent campaign on to make the 3-rune game shorter (which I admit has not been implemented too terribly so far, in fairness). But I'm sensing a lot of calls to pull out things that are open to vast differences of opinion/playstyle in this one.

Next it'll be remove Stealth and remove Monks, perhaps remove Trog? They are all areas that can be replicated by other things more or less, and or give significant early boosts and abilities that aren't simply killed by Silence... (Oh sorry, the Silence part is directed at calls for removals of the teleport wand, which I read just before this but anyway.)
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 16:39

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

I know this will sound like a crazy idea, but hear me out:

What IF, instead of calling for a particular game feature to be removed, YOU merely stop using that feature?
This would allow others who actually enjoy that feature to continue having fun with it, instead of seeing it removed from the game altogether.
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Post Wednesday, 30th November 2016, 16:40

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Remove Trog from Berserkers, give it a potion of Berserk Rage instead.

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Post Thursday, 1st December 2016, 01:25

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

pedritolo wrote:I know this will sound like a crazy idea, but hear me out:

What IF, instead of calling for a particular game feature to be removed, YOU merely stop using that feature?
This would allow others who actually enjoy that feature to continue having fun with it, instead of seeing it removed from the game altogether.


How about instead of it being removed or telling the player to stop using it, why don't they just buff it? I'm not for removing features. I'm for making features better and for removing stuff as a last resort.

No one in their right mind uses poison magic, so people are already taking your advice.
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Post Thursday, 1st December 2016, 08:15

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

VM is easy because in D:1 - 11 there are no dangerous monsters that poison does not kill.

When you've done D:11 you have to consider your options: can you do Lair (i.e. do you have a way of dealing with spiny frogs and black mambas), is it better to go to Orc or to do more D instead? It is ok to do a bit of everything, there is no need to rush to Lair:6, Orc:2 or D:15.
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Post Thursday, 1st December 2016, 11:15

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

poot112 wrote:How about instead of it being removed or telling the player to stop using it, why don't they just buff it? I'm not for removing features. I'm for making features better and for removing stuff as a last resort.


I certainly agree with that, yes
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 01:00

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

It strikes me that Venom Mage as an option that is super-survivable in DL1-11 is a good thing to have in the game for new players who might be getting frustrated at getting killed in the early dungeon every time. It's a background that lets you stabilize early for the early game and actually learn the game with a modicum of continuity (ie while staying alive for a while). Any advice to early players is irrelevant to this point -- that advice is not displayed to them on the screen but Venom Mage is there to be discovered.

Also, if I can win with a Venom Mage, which I plan to, it will feel great. :-)
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 01:21

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Sprucery wrote:VM is easy because in D:1 - 11 there are no dangerous monsters that poison does not kill.


Don't forget that we have D:~11 water moccasins, wraiths, skeletal warriors, freezing wraiths, tough zombies (wyvern zombies, ...) and possibly player ghosts.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 01:45

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

mattlistener wrote:It strikes me that Venom Mage as an option that is super-survivable in DL1-11


imo the same is true of IE, Wz, FE, Cj, EE (probly AE too, I haven't played many) only more so and their attacks work on more enemies.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 03:16

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

scorpionwarrior wrote:
mattlistener wrote:It strikes me that Venom Mage as an option that is super-survivable in DL1-11


imo the same is true of IE, Wz, FE, Cj, EE (probly AE too, I haven't played many) only more so and their attacks work on more enemies.


VM can kill things while running away from them starting on D1, and can ride the power curve of its own starting book more smoothly than most other book starts.


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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 03:39

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

I'm not really sure what you mean by riding the book's power curve more smoothly than most other book starts. Sting is pretty bad on D:1 especially compared to freeze and pain. All of the elementalist books and the conjurer, necromancer, and wizard books get significantly better utility out of their spells throughout the game as well. VM is definitely the worst mage start imo.

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 08:39

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

papilio wrote:Don't forget that we have D:~11 water moccasins, wraiths, skeletal warriors, freezing wraiths, tough zombies (wyvern zombies, ...) and possibly player ghosts.

Of those, only water moccasin and zombies of fast monsters should give you trouble, others you can run from (hard player ghosts should generally be avoided anyway). And by the time you meet those, you probably have some way of dealing with them, like a wand.

VM can be the worst mage background, because Sting at low spellpower is not so good. But it is still easy imo. If someone is having trouble with VM, please post a character dump.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 14:15

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Sprucery wrote:If someone is having trouble with VM, please post a character dump.


NaVM was quite hard. All those zombies and wraiths suddenly became a threat you had to melee.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 14:47

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Ah yes the age old classic of playing a background whose safest, best play stems from kiting things around on a species that can't kite things around safely

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 15:10

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

No, it was old classic of playing species with the highest possible aptitude in poison magic and with poisonous breath, which also happens to be the only species who can get poisonous cloud mutation.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 15:46

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Yeah, NaVM can be quite hard, I'll give you that.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 16:51

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Yeah that's the thing, it's a really great example of why aptitudes matter less than lots of other species-related factors in determining whether a combo is good or not

It's pretty unhelpful to discuss NaVM when talking about VM power (for the record I agree that VM isn't very good, I just think you choose a really poor example to support your point)

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 16:56

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

ZipZipskins wrote:It's pretty disingenuous to discuss NaVM when talking about VM power (for the record I agree that VM isn't very good, I just think you choose a really poor example to support your point)


That's quite funny. I provided an example of bad VM in reply to "If someone is having trouble with VM, please post a character dump." and you are saying that this is a poor example. I cannot argue here, an example of bad VM is a poor example indeed :)

Edit. If it's not clear, I am actually speaking from experience, I have played that NaVM a long time ago but I still remember how hard it was.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 16:57

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Right but lots of other VMs are better. Your problems with NaVM are naga problems, not strictly VM problems.

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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 16:58

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

ZipZipskins wrote:Right but lots of other VMs are better. Your problems with NaVM are naga problems, not strictly VM problems.


I disagree. NaIE, NaCj or NaFE are not hard, at least not that hard. VM has too many immune monsters.
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Post Friday, 2nd December 2016, 16:59

Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage

Because they aren't backgrounds that rely on movement to kill safely on a species that penalizes movement. This is my whole point.

edit: well except ice beasts and sticky flame, maybe I need to reassess here lol, VM really definitely does suck
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