Seriously though, Rename halfling and hill orc

[luckums_wormsnacker]

Halflings and Hill orcs are the only two things that come entirely from Tolkien still in the game. Legally, halfling might be distinct from hobbit but come on, we all know they're hobbits. You're not fooling anyone.

Here are some suggestions for renaming:

For Halflings, I would go with "gnome." There are already gnomes in the game's backstory, so it's pretty weird that no actual gnomes ever appear in the game, just give 'em some earth magic aptitude and call it a day. Alternatively there are a ton of hobbit-esque creatures from folklore, like the Scottish Bauchan, the Welsh Knocker, the Irish Leprechaun, or the Latin American Duende. Finally, maybe just call them goblins, though that might be too similar thematically to kobolds.

Hill Orcs could be renamed Redcaps with absolutely no change. Alternatively, they could complement the Tengu if they were called kappa or oni. Yeah I dunno.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I typed this out as a legitimate suggestion before seeing the deluge of "remove x" posts made in the forum

[Sar]

fantasy hipster

[Dioneo]

I assume you include enemy orcs in this change as well? Given how closely tied they are to Hill Orcs through Beogh, I think you'd have to. I'm not against any of these suggestions in principle, though I wonder if it wouldn't be better to make some further modifications to Hill Orcs while we're at it as they're not terrible distinctive in their current form.

[Orange]

Hill orcs don't tho. Tolkien orcs are literally poorly forked elves.
Crawls' are piggish brawny humanoids, something that came a little later. You can't exactly have a fantasy without orc equivalent, especially with the this amount of other species around. Even if their main purpose is to feed Beogh.
Also Ogres are Oni, not orcs.

[Shard1697]

You can't exactly have a fantasy without orc equivalent,

You certainly can, quite easily in fact!

[Orange]

You can't exactly have a fantasy without orc equivalent,

You certainly can, quite easily in fact!

Someone's gonna fill their role anyway. Maybe even humans.

[Dioneo]

I suppose we could work "backwards" from the current depiction of Orcs to see if there is anyway of renaming them which doesn't upset the mechanics too much.

The Orcs of crawl are apparently given to religion, having their own racial deity and a high Invocations aptitude.
They seem to have a very hierarchical "church" structure, given the different "levels" of priest, as well as the presence of at least one "Saint", the notion of "heretic" priests also suggests a very centralized religious power structure.
Their religion explicitly forbids non-orc worshipers, being actively hostile towards other faiths and races. It's not clear if this animosity if born of anything in particular, but it may have something to do with Beogh being shunned by the other gods (not having an altar in the temple etc.).
Orcs also seem to have an affinity for "dark arts", with their priests and mages summoning demons and using necromantic powers.
They are very militaristic and industrious, seeming to be skilled in the making of arms and in mining for precious materials. Interestingly, they erect shrines in their places of industry, suggesting that working the mines may also be part of their religious duties.

Not sure if there's anything in particular which would fit these characteristics, but I think something could perhaps be made of Beogh's status as an outcast god; something about an race of beings who are either hated because they took to worshiping Beogh, or who were made outcasts for some other reason and were subsequently "adopted" by this hated Deity. If we gave them a reason to feel wronged by the other gods/races then we could perhaps turn them into something more interesting.

[Orange]

Can't they just be "evil" much like undead and demonspawn and therefore shunned?
Also Beogh is not the only one shunned from the temple, Jiyva and Lucy don't have a place at the temple either, unless it's being forcibly taken over(Do we have this with Beogh? We should), and yet they accept anyone willing, unlike Beogh.
They however might be the whole reason Beogh exist in the first place(which it kinda is in meta). So they, like, "evil" as they are and this created their own god to exemply their position towards the world.
Maybe they're, like fire giants, believe they are destined for something? Their origins should be clarified.
Because as they are, it also somewhat contradicts with the existance of (hob)goblins, ogres and trolls, who are all said to be distantly related to orcs, allied with them, seeing as they frequently can be seen together and inhabit orcish mines, and yet, they too are forbidden from worshipping Beogh. Why?

[Ultraviolent4]

I really like the name Kappa.

Kappa.

[Dioneo]

Can't they just be "evil" much like undead and demonspawn and therefore shunned?

I suppose they could, but that's fairly uninteresting and, as you point out, is also already a thing with both undead and demonspawn. As for other gods, my assumption has always been that Jivya is simply indifferent to the other gods. We're not really sure what it means to be fully accepted into the pantheon, but I don't feel like Jivya would be much into such cosmic "politics", given its chaotic nature. I assumed Lugonu's excommunication to be self-imposed, due to its hatred of the other deities. The pantheon doesn't seem to mind "evil" gods, given Makhleb, Yredelemnul and Kikubaaqudgha, so I don't see why Lugonu should be given special treatment unless it was by its own doing.

Beogh is no more hateful or evil than some of the other gods, so I feel there could be room for something interesting there, which could be used to reform Orcs into a more distinctive species.

[tankra]

Mindflayers?

[Orange]

that's fairly uninteresting and, as you point out, is also already a thing with both undead and demonspawn.

Is everything supposed to be interesting? Some people might like orcs precisely for what they are, communal ebul race.
And remaking the orcs brings above complications with other relative races. Tho it might not be a bad idea to allow worshipping Beogh at least to them.

As for other gods, my assumption has always been that Jivya is simply indifferent to the other gods. We're not really sure what it means to be fully accepted into the pantheon, but I don't feel like Jivya would be much into such cosmic "politics", given its chaotic nature.

Not really. Xom is similarly chaotic, heck, he's the embodiment of it, and yet he's there.
Jiyva isn't really indifferent to other gods or potential followers, since, as fluff says, the Slime Pits were once a place of some ancient civilization, forcibly taken over by slimes. Similarly, very rarely temple can be seen taken over by Jiyva. Why would it do something like that if it didn't care? Temple is anything but very appetizing place with no items at all.

I assumed Lugonu's excommunication to be self-imposed, due to its hatred of the other deities. The pantheon doesn't seem to mind "evil" gods, given Makhleb, Yredelemnul and Kikubaaqudgha, so I don't see why Lugonu should be given special treatment unless it was by its own doing.

Lugonu's descriptions states she has been banished to the Abyss and no notion of it being self-imposed. Given that Ashenzari is somehow shacked to the sky, gods able to intervene to prevent other gods' actions, it is entirely possible for some of them to be banished.

Beogh is no more hateful or evil than some of the other gods

He's somewhat is tho, since his motto is "Drown the unbelievers in a sea of blood!" with no option for non-orc believers to join.

so I feel there could be room for something interesting there, which could be used to reform Orcs into a more distinctive species.

Probably, but they shouldn't be defined by their faith, at least because they aren't bound to worship Beogh. It's Beogh who doesn't accept anyone but orcs.
If someone is to remake the orcs, this should include their kin as well.
Because why do we have ogres, trolls and goblins, which are similarly a staple of any generic fantasy setting and complains are heard only towards orcs?

[Shtopit]

So, what about hilling and halforc?

[Dioneo]

Is everything supposed to be interesting?

I find this sentiment a bit strange, surely if you are creating a game (or anything else really) you would try to make everything in it as interesting as you could? Especially when it come to something like this, since the "lore"-aspects of the game are generally "cheap" in terms of development (being mostly text). It wouldn't even interfere with other aspects of the game, since people who don't care can just ignore it.

You're right about Lugonu, I forgot that bit. Howver, I read Xom and Jivya as being chaotic in very different ways. Xom basically enjoys messing with people so it could make sense for him to try to disrupt the pantheon "from within" or whatever. Jivya is more a shapeless devourer, it will probably absorb the followers and temples of other gods if it can, but only because that's what it does, not out of spite or out of some wish to join their special club Neither of these things need to matter when it comes to Beogh however.

Probably, but they shouldn't be defined by their faith, at least because they aren't bound to worship Beogh. It's Beogh who doesn't accept anyone but orcs.
If someone is to remake the orcs, this should include their kin as well.
Because why do we have ogres, trolls and goblins, which are similarly a staple of any generic fantasy setting and complains are heard only towards orcs?

One could perhaps make a distinction between Orcs (or whatever we call them) in general and the particular Orcs which inhabit the dungeon. Something to the effect of:

  Code:

On the surface <Neworcs> generally live at the edges of civilization, attempting to eke out whatever living they can. In the dungeon, however, most <Neworcs> have been united in the worship of Beogh, carrying out his will in opposition to heretics and unbelievers of all kinds.

We could even suggest that they were specifically sent to the dungeon by Beogh, perhaps to retrieve the Orb of Zot for their master, in the hopes that its powers will allow him to overthrow the other gods (or something to that effect). This way, the religious identity of monster orcs is preserved, while allowing player orcs to be free in their choices.

I don't have a strong opinion on the matter of Ogres and such; for all I care they could also be allowed to follow Beogh. If the developers would prefer not to we could just mention somewhere that Orcs hire/enslave Ogres/Trolls to work in the Mines (a lot of heavy lifting to do) but that they are excluded from performing religious duties.

[Orange]

I find this sentiment a bit strange, surely if you are creating a game (or anything else really) you would try to make everything in it as interesting as you could?

You can't have everything interesting, simply because you might overdid it and it'll end up bad or everything else in comparison will end up relatively uninteresting in terms of gameplay.
Crawls has a lot of monsters. Many of them aren't anything special, like goblins, or some animals. What can you do to improve a common dungeon rat? Invent new kinds and them delete them back?

Spoiler: show

Where's my fruity bats?

Some monsters serve as the background. You might also find rock walls uninteresting, but trying to improve rats and rock walls into something exotic just for the sake of it might backfire. I'm not even mentioning rock's theme originating from geology and architecture.

Neither of these things need to matter when it comes to Beogh however.

He's more similar to Lugonu, tho. Just more salty and less distortional. With him originating from orcs and not vice versa might explain his attitude.

We could even suggest that they were specifically sent to the dungeon by Beogh, perhaps to retrieve the Orb of Zot for their master, in the hopes that its powers will allow him to overthrow the other gods (or something to that effect). This way, the religious identity of monster orcs is preserved, while allowing player orcs to be free in their choices.

Well if that's the case they should place more bands of highlvl orcs below and around, if they are trying to get the Orb, they should be seen anywhere, from Lair branches to Pans. So far only Roka ventures out somewhere close.
However that way they are seen as pawns as opposed to the meaningful decisions race.
Such ambitions is better shown coming from themselves, and Beogh being just the extention of it. Orcs might just be struggling to prove their superiority over everyone else.
Following Beogh can be explained as accepting this principle and petitioner struggling to become both more "orky" and to expand orcish influence. BOG might as well slowly turn anyone willing into orc with piety.

[Utis]

I suggest to rename hill orcs to "high elves" and call it a day.

[gfgf45550]

I suggest to rename hill orcs to "mountain dwarves" and then remove them.

[severen]

Removing hill orcs is silly you'd have to remove Beogh too. Minotaurs they are just humans with horns who fight good and spellcast bad just remove them instead. Just like High Elves are Tengu who have way better stats, are vastly better at charms/hexes/transl/transm, have more HP, and have more slots; Minotaurs are easily replacable by humans or demigods just like High Elves are mostly duplicated by tengu. I mean they have like 50% overlap; its pretty big.

[Sprucery]

Removing hill orcs is silly you'd have to remove Beogh too.

Two birds with one stone!

(Sorry dpeg but I just don't like the fact that to play a certain god I only have one species to choose.)

[ZipZipskins]

You beat me to it spruce goose