feels like alot of indie games are now called roguelikes

[zardo]

I have mixed feelings about this whole debate. On one hand, I've been playing roguelikes since I was a little kid and I remember when I first saw Spelunky, and Spelunky is exactly what I would imagine if you told me about a "roguelike-inspired platformer." I think there's something wrong with your brain if you can't see that. Really good game, too. On the other hand the buzz and saturation of the roguelike-like trend is well past the point of ruining it.

A real roguelike definitely has to be turn-based.

P.S. roguelikes are puzzle games

[Arrhythmia]

ITT people get really mad about marketing, but no one focuses on the true enemy, Capitalism.

[Viashino_wizard]

ITT people get really mad about marketing, but no one focuses on the true enemy, Capitalism.

#MarchOnGozag

[Siegurt]

Hm, Turn-based, grid-based, procedurally generated, Got it! Civilization is a Roguelike!

Wait.....

[khalil]

Here's the problem no-one here seems to realize: the meaning of words change.
For example, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is awful, in that it inspires awe, and Nethack is terrific, in that the amount of bad design decisions it contains terrifies me.

[zrn]

Here's the problem no-one here seems to realize: the meaning of words change.

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

[Arrhythmia]

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

Yeah, how dare the fucking retarded public let their language change! That's why I only write my posts in Ænglisc.

e: oh wait, not Ænglisc, I meant Latin.

e2: hmm, not Latin either...

[cerebovssquire]

Here's the problem no-one here seems to realize: the meaning of words change.

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

So that would make the new definition of 'retarded' also wrong?

[bcadren]

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

þá wordcwideas áncyne áwendedon...

[I started translating that to 14th century English; but I got tired of it at 'change'...takes too long.] Point is; though, you are wrong there. Meanings change; new words are created, this is normal and over hundreds of years it leads to new languages.

[Hopeless]

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

þá wordcwideas áncyne áwendedon...

[I started translating that to 14th century English; but I got tired of it at 'change'...takes too long.] Point is; though, you are wrong there. Meanings change; new words are created, this is normal and over hundreds of years it leads to new languages.

Indeed. As concepts change so do the words that express them. And as Culture changes so do the concepts that create that culture. And so on. Very nice work on the Old Middle(?) English. (Or is that Middle Old English?)

[Leafsnail]

If some guy breaks into my house and shoots me, he didn't donate lead to me in a non-traditional manner. He fucking murdered me. Proper language is important, the most important thing in human civilization. I can quote Orwell here if you like.

I don't understand what the point of this analogy is. Also I dare you to quote Orwell and act like it applies to this issue. Go ahead.

So if I set Smash Bros. to random stage, items on, one stock, it has "heavy rogue-like elements"??? Random loot, random maps, and permadeath, it fits all the criteria!!

Pre-designed maps selected at random is not the same thing as randomly generated maps

"Rogue-like elements" is actually code for "I'm too lazy/incompetent to design good levels, so I used procedural level generation because even a flowchart is better than I am at making games". The former is of course better marketing. As a fan of Toejam & Earl, I naturally find this all incredibly hilarious, because it is much more similar to Rogue than any of these bullshit modern games like Binding of Isaac and Spelunky, and ToeJam & Earl has an option to TURN OFF all the randomness!

If you hate procedurally generated games then why do you play Dungeon Crawl? I don't understand what point you're making here.

"RPG" is even worse. It's original meaning is entirely lost. Nowadays it literally just means "this game contains upgrades of some kind". An excerpt from Harvard's prestigious game design course:

RPG stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade. It is a colloquial term which originated in the FPS genre, appearing in a wide variety of games, such as Call of Duty, Call of Duty 2, Call of Duty Black Ops 2, and Call of Duty Modern Warfare. It's use in describing a game is to refer to the power of the player character's offensive abilities, i.e. "This ability is as powerful as a Rocket Propelled Grenade." Because explosions are entertaining, it is considered advantageous for a game to contain as many "RPG Elements" as possible.

Except nobody ever refers to Call of Duty as an RPG, do they? People saying that it has "RPG elements" has in fact not shifted the definition of the word at all, really. Although the point that the quote is making (which is that "RPG" never really meant and still doesn't mean very much) is perhaps valid.

Binding of Isaac is an action shooter with randomized levels, but that just doesn't sound pretentious enough.

Procedurally generated levels, randomized loot and permadeath. Three things closely associated with roguelikes, and therefore three things you can communicate more quickly by comparing it to one. It's clear that it's not turn-based from the "action shooter" part of the description.

Actual roguelikes are typically of high quality. "Metroidvanias" enjoy a similar prestige-by-association (and have the same problem of games that are obviously not Metroidvanias claiming to be). It's not surprising for people to try to hamfistedly shove their game into a particular genre when that genre is associated with excellence in the public perception.

There are plenty of shitty actual roguelikes out there, unless you're going for some kind of "no true scotsman" approach. I don't think anyone assumes that a game will be good just because it's comparing itself to a roguelike, they just assume that it will have the elements of a roguelike that they enjoy.

Words only "change" because the general public is fucking retarded and they continue misusing words until the true meaning fades away. That doesn't mean the new definition is right. I can't wait until roguelike means just means 'indie game.' Oh wait that's already happening.

I love the scare quotes around "change".

[Lasty]

I think we can all agree that proper English includes exclusively all the words, definitions, and pronunciations that I grew up with, and that deviation from such reflects very poorly on those who deviate.

[Can-ned Food]

Change is not so important, whether pronunciation, spelling, or meaning; it is the loss and confusion of meanings which makes for less scientific or metaphysical awareness.

E.g. ‘evolution’: The word means, at one time in all parlance and now as yet in chemistry, ‘an emergence out from’. It was used to describe the emergence of a species class from a genus one, first used in that application by T. Huxley if I remember correctly. It is not a synonym for ‘improvement’, not even as adjunct to the case whereby natural selection operates crudely on the aforementioned species and on the distribution of traits in a population. Nowadays, people are likely to use the word when describing ‘an event of change’, with strong connotations for ‘an improvement’, in all applications, including the biomorphic one, as if the magical élan vital were driving some program called Evolution. Or, that's how I see it, anyways: Sloppy use of the word hinders people's understanding of the world around them.

People are failing language, not vice versa. What happens with “rogue-like”, if it happens at all, is an ignorance or lack of education on what qualities defined the original Rogue and a wide difference in how many of those qualities are identified by use of the word; the problem is that there never was — to my knowledge — a formal or conventional definition, despite the many arguments or blather preceeding this post.

[Arrhythmia]

i, too, like to dig up two year old threads to beat the deadest horse called prescriptivism

[Shtopit]

I don't know, I find it pretty enlightening. Think of all the time Cosseriu and such people wasted writing whole books about language change, when the answer was "stupidity". I wonder how they missed that one.

[Lasty]

It's always the last place you look.

[ZipZipskins]

language, like all social constructs, is best ruled with an iron fist, and lo, I shall be its lord, for it is I who have the TRUE GODDAMN KNOWLEDGE of what is correct and what is not, given to me by the divinest providence, and ye plebeian fools who toil away with your worn and weathered hands from days upon days of hard labour have not the slightest inkling of mindspace to devote to such a lofty intellectual pursuit, which does not even begin to mention the lowliness of your collective births

[Siegurt]

It is reasonable for language to change, and it is reasonable to resist change you don't like.

Educating people about the current or prior meanings of a word is one such type of resistance.

With *no* such resistance, languages would rapidly degenerate into unitelligable dialects and we would be unable to communicate at all pretty quickly.

On the other hand languages must grow, change, and adapt, and outdated linguistic paradigms must be allowed to change or die.

Given that 'Rogue' came out (and even fell out of fashion) before most of the current video game playing population were born, it isn't surprising that the term experinces some drift.

[Shard1697]

With *no* such resistance, languages would rapidly degenerate into unitelligable dialects and we would be unable to communicate at all pretty quickly.

do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this assertion

[Siegurt]

With *no* such resistance, languages would rapidly degenerate into unitelligable dialects and we would be unable to communicate at all pretty quickly.

do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this assertion

It is self evident that if each person can make up new meanings for words (and new words) in a completely unrestricted manner, if no information about what the new or old interpretations might be is passed between individuals or groups, eventually two individuals (or groups) are functionally going to be speaking two completely different languages, and be unable to communicate at all in their 'current' dialect.

Presuming one belongs to the generation that learns this "new" dialect, and doesn't learn the old one (my stipulation is that no learning about the old words takes place, because there is no linguistic inertia) the only way two individuals could possibly have new words in common is pure chance. Ultimately enough words will be "new" that you won't be able to communicate effectively, at that point we call those things that people are speaking different languages.

In fact that is how our existing languages came to be, two groups evolved language separately with no 'canonical' meaning being shared between them. You could say i have all of the history of the creation of languages as my evidence.

It is even evident when you look at what is ostensibly your own language of you go back far enough.

The fact that we have a common language and can use it to communicate at all is entirely due to us learning a common idea of "what words mean".

My assertion here is both true and mostly a tautology "words only mean something if we agree that they do, and agreement can only come about if you communicate about it" isn't really an argument, so much as an observation.

Also i partially mis-spoke, you can communicate without language of course, i specifically meant "if two dialects evolve distinctly enough you can't use the language to communicate" I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't communicate at all, that would be weird.

[Shard1697]

But people learn in this fashion by normal communication, no one needs to provide the "resistance" of being that guy who tells someone else that they're using words wrong.

[Shtopit]

Enter the role of women as language tachers for their children.

Also have you really never been corrected for mispronouncing or giving the wrong meaning to a word?

[prozacelf]

http://i.imgur.com/HgCdEZ3.jpg

[TeshiAlair]

It's interesting, I love the terms roguelike-like or roguelite because as buzzwords, they generally mean "I will like this game."

I despise the overuse of the term roguelike because I like words to have some semblance of meaning.

Aside- has anyone here played Conquest of Elysium? Because I swear to god it feels like someone made a roguelike/roguelite 4x game and it is freaking beautiful

[PleasingFungus]

i've seen a lot of people describe CoE as roguelike or roguelike-like, but i don't think i really see it. it's just another fantasy 4x, like warlock: master of the arcane, etc, etc.

it's a fun little game, but very random.

[VeryAngryFelid]

It is self evident that if each person can make up new meanings for words (and new words) in a completely unrestricted manner, if no information about what the new or old interpretations might be is passed between individuals or groups, eventually two individuals (or groups) are functionally going to be speaking two completely different languages, and be unable to communicate at all in their 'current' dialect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family

[neverEnough]

Whatever.
nerd mode
Noone noticed there was a big mistake by stepping from 1991 games (lemmings) to Doom? Any fps is doomlike? what about Rise of the Triad? Syndicate? Wolfenstein?
/nerd mode off

The magics behind old videogames is that you really could have played *most* titles in your gaming age and notice evolutions behind styles and any small or mayor improvement.
I'm not sure this is doable right now, too many markets, titles etc. I'm just sure whatever i've seen on gf's ipad is just a dumb copy of old well defined games, with some lil fuzzy fancy gfx.
Unlike language evolutions and branches. I just remember sometimes some slangs (in my language) i was used to in my childhood that are mostly lost, my memory is finite and can't really get the infinite loop behind the creation/starvation. There must be a moment when a specific combination of sounds ain't spelled anymore, a tomb in time.
Consider also geographical obvious limitations, what does an australian know about new london's teen language trends?
The sweet mistery about the old fashion retrogaming is lead by the small amount of information of the topic. Tracking down the list of mayor games and changes since 198* to 200* is pretty doable by one person, many was there spending their free time even if memories got the bad habit to mix them up.
There was a time in '70 when creating personal radios was an hobbistic effort, the same happened to the geeks by inventing new entertainments in videogames, chats and so on.
Running a BBS must have been awesome, sadly i missed that.
All your base are belong to us. Click if u get it.

BTW, why is DCSS still running on squared grid? Diagonals aren't unfair?

I'm glad someone told me about this game, i started it way too late

[Arrhythmia]

BTW, why is DCSS still running on squared grid? Diagonals aren't unfair?

octagons don't tile the plain

[ZipZipskins]

BTW, why is DCSS still running on squared grid? Diagonals aren't unfair?

octagons don't tile the plain

https://youtu.be/IGuxXBaC33U

[scorpionwarrior]

With *no* such resistance, languages would rapidly degenerate into unitelligable dialects and we would be unable to communicate at all pretty quickly.

do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this assertion

It is self evident that if each person can make up new meanings for words (and new words) in a completely unrestricted manner, if no information about what the new or old interpretations might be is passed between individuals or groups, eventually two individuals (or groups) are functionally going to be speaking two completely different languages, and be unable to communicate at all in their 'current' dialect.

Presuming one belongs to the generation that learns this "new" dialect, and doesn't learn the old one (my stipulation is that no learning about the old words takes place, because there is no linguistic inertia) the only way two individuals could possibly have new words in common is pure chance. Ultimately enough words will be "new" that you won't be able to communicate effectively, at that point we call those things that people are speaking different languages.

In fact that is how our existing languages came to be, two groups evolved language separately with no 'canonical' meaning being shared between them. You could say i have all of the history of the creation of languages as my evidence.

It is even evident when you look at what is ostensibly your own language of you go back far enough.

The fact that we have a common language and can use it to communicate at all is entirely due to us learning a common idea of "what words mean".

My assertion here is both true and mostly a tautology "words only mean something if we agree that they do, and agreement can only come about if you communicate about it" isn't really an argument, so much as an observation.

Also i partially mis-spoke, you can communicate without language of course, i specifically meant "if two dialects evolve distinctly enough you can't use the language to communicate" I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't communicate at all, that would be weird.

Keep on railing against things that you are powerless to change and have been going on since before humanity achieved sentience, I guess.

[neverEnough]

BTW, why is DCSS still running on squared grid? Diagonals aren't unfair?

octagons don't tile the plain

Aight, but hexagons rock.
https://www.google.it/search?q=wesnoth+map+grid

And u may consider even an untiled plain, where any move would take exactly 1 time but different spatial traslation related to the char speed. But i agree that would be way too far from the current mechanic.

Hexagons also rhyme with magic hexes !!

[dowan]

I think we can all agree that proper English includes exclusively all the words, definitions, and pronunciations that I grew up with, and that deviation from such reflects very poorly on those who deviate.

Why is anyone posting in this thread after Lasty obviously already won it 2 years ago?

[Cimanyd]

Why is anyone posting in this thread after Lasty obviously already won it 2 years ago?

I wasn't there 2 years ago to thank it, so this necromancy is for the best.

[n1000]

BTW, why is DCSS still running on squared grid? Diagonals aren't unfair?

octagons don't tile the plain

play hyperrogue

[Shtopit]

BTW, are there some non Euclidean roguelikes?

[n1000]

BTW, are there some non Euclidean roguelikes?

play hyperrogue

[neverEnough]

BTW, are there some non Euclidean roguelikes?

Descent
http://images.eurogamer.net/2014/usgamer/descent-spot2.jpg

[duvessa]

I think that assessment is misleading: across all 3 Descent games, the only non-Euclidean geometry in the standard levels that I can recall is that secret cube in level 16 of Descent 2 that very slightly overlaps a tunnel.

[yesno]

this thread.....

[neverEnough]

I think that assessment is misleading: across all 3 Descent games, the only non-Euclidean geometry in the standard levels that I can recall is that secret cube in level 16 of Descent 2 that very slightly overlaps a tunnel.

Duvessa you are awesome

Correct, my first answer was too impulsive, it was just an amazing gameplay but coords was pretty euclidean.
I guess the same do apply to Portal, so no, afaik there aren't non-euclidean rogues around Unless you consider some temporary gravitational effects somewhere, maybe in Homeworld (not sure it did happen tho).

[n1000]

I've been telling people to play Hyperrogue because it is a non-euclidian roguelike

[neverEnough]

I've been telling people to play Hyperrogue because it is a non-euclidian roguelike

whoops i thought it was a joke from the cube -> hypercube movies.
Just watched on youtube, meh bad game, the sphere is just a visual trick not really anything about game mechanics (aside from the unrequired barriers at all) or exciting conceptual news. I remember a 1v1 tank game on the glorious i386 (when 2 players had to share the same keyboard) which was exactly the same with 2d tiles. It was good because you couldn't run THAT far from the other enemy but you could keep running forever until the other had the good shot.
Thanks for the reference tho

[duvessa]

I think that assessment is misleading: across all 3 Descent games, the only non-Euclidean geometry in the standard levels that I can recall is that secret cube in level 16 of Descent 2 that very slightly overlaps a tunnel.

Duvessa you are awesome

Correct, my first answer was too impulsive, it was just an amazing gameplay but coords was pretty euclidean.

To be clear, Descent 1 and 2 do support non-Euclidean level geometry, specifically overlapping rooms; I'm sure there are gobs of custom levels that have it. You might be able to coax the game into having a self-intersecting room without crashing as well.

[dynast]

Wow, that automap font brought back memories i refuse to accept are mine.

[pedritolo]

Wow, that automap font brought back memories i refuse to accept are mine.

You're not alone there, buddy

[archaeo]

tbh, this thread makes me feel a lot better about the 2017 version of the Tavern

That said, I miss you, vengefulcarrot.

[Arrhythmia]

tbh, this thread makes me feel a lot better about the 2017 version of the Tavern

That said, I miss you, vengefulcarrot.

sic transit gloria mundi

[n1000]

tbh, this thread makes me feel a lot better about the 2017 version of the Tavern

That said, I miss you, vengefulcarrot.

sic transit gloria mundi

the best tourney team name ever

[Can-ned Food]

Well, the hyperbolic geometry in Hyperrogue is genuine, not a visual gimmick, in that it changes the layout of the floor and in the various paths you can take between two points on the hyperbolic surface.

P.S. thanks to the various other people in this thread who showed me that this place wasn't entirely populated by the cacophonous.

[Zooty]

Keep on railing against things that you are powerless to change and have been going on since before humanity achieved sentience, I guess.

Fuck entropy.