What does 'Optimal' mean?

[Patashu]

It seems to usually be used as
-Maximum liklihood of winning of winning the current game/any arbitrary game

But there are lots of other 'optimals' people are interested in, such as
-Minimize mean time between ascensions of the currently chosen goal (so something that improves win rate but takes too long/too much energy/brainpower to implement easily loses here, for example)
-Minimize expected time from picking up the game to first win (so don't include advice if learning it/implementing it takes longer than the win rate it will help with for a newer player)
-Minimize real time or turn count for speedrun attempts (so if it's win-rate-optimal but takes too long in either sense it's out)

And I'm sure I'm missing some.

[vengefulcarrot]

Not playing is optimal imo

[Knight9910]

It's a game. Way I see it the "optimal" scenario is to have fun. That's why I play demonspawn hybrid-mage characters so often, but almost never play minotaurs fighters - I might not win a lot, but I always have an interesting time.

(Fun fact: I actually did play a minotaur gladiator once. She did very well, but... well, the most fair way to put it is to say she went insane. This is back when neqoxecs were all over the place in the mid-game and spammed the crap out of malmutate - I ended up with max-level maprot, berserkitis, blurry vision, deformed body, and no way to fix any of it. The character didn't DIE - there was very little that she couldn't kill, she just became way too obnoxious to play anymore.)

[Bloax]

"Optimal" tactics in DCSS player lingo usually refer to the best things to do to minimize any chance of splatting, with things like not moving towards enemies, dragging one enemy at a time upstairs and not running from monsters into unexplored territory.

[vengefulcarrot]

I don't think majority of crawlers even think of "Optimal" when they play this game, and that is completely FINE. I honestly feel its quite hard to label what is optimum in this game.

What bloax says is optimal in a tactical sense sure, but tactical in terms of not dying. Optimal tactics in speedrunning is different, you often see people bread wielding and waving them at air and running into the dark and dying all the time. Optimal strategy for getting a huge advantage is doing elf asap (considered by some).

There are a lot of things you can do to take the game to the next level after that first win, and its great, be it streaks or highscores or DDHe pacifist runs and of course Tournaments.

To me "optimal" in this game is something that sorta exists (in that people are getting better at the game all the time) since I first started playing I have seen a lot of amazing runs that I never thought were possible 2 years ago (Yermak netting Lom Lobon was amazing so was net stabbing tombs). (or maybe the game just got easier I don't know). At the same time "optimal" sorta doesn't exist since it isn't something defined i.e. there is no ultimate perfect way to play that everyone should strive to achieve. Maybe there will be eventually but I don't see it right now.

Also the optimal way to play is OpEE of Chei.

[Knight9910]

i.e. there is no ultimate perfect way to play that everyone should strive to achieve. Maybe there will be eventually but I don't see it right now.

To be completely honest with you? I sincerely hope that, if such a thing does exist, it's never found.

One of the things that gives Crawl an edge over mainstream games (aside from the fact that Crawl is free) is the dev team's dedication to getting rid of "no brainer" strategies.

Anyone who has played World of Warcraft knows how, if you want to be a part of any high level dungeon or raid party then you're forced to play specific characters. If you're not playing what the team needs then you're not allowed to play. For some sub-optimal characters the endgame simply doesn't exist.

A lot of more mainstream games are like that.

Crawl isn't.

There's no perfect weapon. There's no perfect species (though some are admittedly better than others on average, a lucky mummy who finds a lot of good stuff will do better than an unlucky minotaur who's trying to go through the Depths still carrying a +1/+2 Handaxe). There's no perfect god. There's no perfect skill setup.

And that's the way I think it should be. It means that you can go ahead and diversify, have fun with the game, and you never feel like you're playing like an idiot for picking formicid instead of gargoyle.

Having a "perfect optimal run" for the game that everyone had to do or else they would be playing wrong, that would make the game boring.