Merge demigods into humans (serious)

[Bart]

Unfortunately some orange named guy closed a demigod topic before I was able to brag more about an idea of mine - merging demigods into humans. The round one is therefore officially lost and I have to start round two from bad position - CYC - but maybe we can look here once more into my proposal and reconsider it humorously, yet also seriously. Here comes a kind request: if you want to make fun of me, it's allowed, but only if you also post something relevant to my proposal. I don't think anybody's going to strictly mod this thread, so I just ask kindly - stay on topic.

What did Bart hide behind his hideous idea?
Story 1)
Imagine being a plain human, who enters the dungeon (as he did for ages already) both because of curiosity and stupidity. He wanders then through tunnels and caverns. Completely clueless about meaning of life, terrified and weak, attacked constantly by some monstrosities, he struggles for his life. At some point he sees a mysterious obsidian structure and because he is only a puny human, he lies on cold pedestal and begs for providence. Boring. Disgusting. Best case, he will become another indoctrinated champion of some not-giving-a-shit-about-him deity. More often, he will die behind next corner.
Story 2)
Once in a while there comes a pompous, arrogant guy who shows his middle finger to silly humans kneeling at altars and ventures forth relying on his own cunningness and pieces of junk lying around. This is a true hero on his way to a godlike entity.

Bart, get to the point!
I propose that human starts with stats just as he does right now. If you decide to worship a god, your gameplay is absolutely normal, human gameplay. If you decide to stay godless, you get (rough concept):
- one random mutation every 3 levels, chosen between +2 dex / +2 str / +2 int.
- robust and magical capacity mutations at level 14. Species name changes to demigod.
- second level of robust and magical capacity at level 21.
At any point of game you may decide to worship a god. If you do, you lose all godly mutations you've gained up to this point, can never regain them and of course lose access to future ones. You did not deserve them, you coward.

What? Why would this be fun?
-We like RPG and roguelikes because of character progress. It's more interesting and satisfying to see a character growing in strength, not being born with it.
-There's real freedom of choice. Feeling weak? Just take Trog's altar and you're set. Found an amulet of berserk? Try to become Trog itself! Mixed feelings? Why not struggle few levels more and decide later? All of the sudden - oh, these benefits are already so nice... No gods ever!
- Your character might become what you want it to be! You have 0 apts, you level up fast. No more struggling with old demigod crap. I really think that Dg deserves at least better apts. Fast exp gain is a lot, but I think that changing experience gain rate in the middle of the game would be dirty (and by no way humans should be victims of merging). Random god wrath as a downside after reaching 'demigod' levels is something I'd like to counter that - fitting flavour, not exploited yet. Potentially very deadly for less skilled players, but the list of wrath effects could be adjusted specifically for 'demigod mode' and be level dependent, too.

That's the dumbest idea ever!
If you feel so, I'm open to criticism. I see at the moment following drawbacks:
- Demigod might become stronger than it used to be (I'm not even sure if that's the case), BUT: this might be adjusted. That's what numbers are for.
- Human becomes not so vanilla, BUT: vanilla is also tasty with e.g. chocolate and nobody prohibits you from eating vanilla alone. Also: human is not the first rookies' choice anyway. It's usually Mi or Gr.
- Human must be vanilla, because there's human in every other game and he's vanilla there! BUT: you told me crawl is not like these other games.
- Not everyone wants to be 'human' demigod! BUT: The concept will not blend with any other species. Mechanically, it's the same case as now, except you can't pretend you're Nosferatu.
- The demigod will lose it's uniqueness without poor aptitudes and very slow exp gain. If you belong to the group believing in that, too bad. There's no chance for me to get another member of my sect.

Hey Bart, actually I like the idea of merging human and demigod. Is there a chance to see it in game?
Probably low, but it was nice for me to continue the dream of more interesting demigods.

Thanks for reading and (semi)polite comments!

[Lyrick]

Its kind of hard to balance it with this ambivalence. There are two choices for this new race but someone's gonna figure out "hey demigod muts suck" or "hey these demigod muts are godly", and soon one of these aspects will simply be written off because the other one is proven to be better.

Also, you don't start the game worshipping a god, most of the time. Are you considered a demigod until then, or a human until then? If its human until then...when is then? What level breakpoint or dungeon level are you going to use to determine that "okay its been long enough here you're a demigod take these godly muts". And if you are a demigod until then you'll be a monster for the beginning since the demigod stats are compensating for something which you haven't sacrificed yet (namely worshipping a god).

[tasonir]

I'm going to file this in my "Ideas that I like, yet simultaneously know there is 0% chance of it being implemented" drawer. That drawer is very, very stuffed at this point.

I can see why it's problematic, though, races don't usually change this drastically, and you'd have to explain that by taking a god you're giving up all of the demigod effects. You said this is your dream of more interesting demigods - but as far as I can see, this doesn't really change demigods, it changes humans more.

The only thing it changes about demigods is getting your stats +2 at a time, and gaining extra hp/mp at certain levels, rather than from the start. I suppose you're also giving them robust 2 instead of only 1; but I like that - it seemed odd to me that demigods don't have even hp/mp aptitudes.

[Sandman25]

I like this idea but I am not sure why it is limited to humans only: every species might get robust, MP+ mutations and stat bonuses if staying godless.

Edit. Alternatively this could be implemented as a new god who can be joined just once.

[and into]

Well, I will say that this is a more innovative and interesting approach than just giving demigods better apts, so I was pleasantly surprised by that. I admit I groaned a bit when I saw the topic but I'm glad I read through and gave it a chance.

Nonetheless, I'm afraid I don't think this would work well in Crawl. Putting aside the (surprisingly emotional and heated) question of removing or keeping or changing demigods, and just looking at what you suggest at an abstract level:

+ You don't get the good HP/MP stat at beginning (and in particular HP stat), which is one of the majorly nice things about dg.
+ There are lots of breakpoints in terms of atheist Hu getting bonuses, and I'm not sure what the point of these breakpoints are in this case. (Unlike Dr's getting their colors at lvl 7, which makes sense. However, to be fair, I'm not at all sure why the Mu breakpoints for necromancy enhancer come so late.) I'm worried that this could introduce bad metagaming and planning considerations, and also runs into tons of problems with clarity and communication, on lots of different levels.
+ Crawl loses a distinctively direct and simple species (Hu) that is well defined precisely by not having major game-altering rewards and penalties (called "innovations" by some and "gimmicks" by others) foisted upon them due to their species
+ Most fundamentally: There is a perhaps subtle but nonetheless (IMO) important difference between getting a reward for maintaining godlessness, versus being forced to be godless and having to adapt to this fact. The former feels quite at odds with species design, while the latter fits (some species can't worship certain gods, one species cannot worship any gods).

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Make Demigod drastically weaker
Make Demigod way more complicated for no apparent reason
Make Demigod strictly worse than Human in any game where a non-Chei altar generates on D2
Make Demigod randomly suffer god wrath even though this completely defeats the point of having a religion-free character

That's the dumbest idea ever!

Edit. Alternatively this could be implemented as a new god who can be joined just once.

It would have to be a completely passive god who does literally nothing except raise your stats and who will not take those benefits away no matter what you do. And it would have to be available in a form that is guaranteed to appear before any altars, so we'd make it a starting character choice. But in that case, why not simply implement it as a new race??

[Sandman25]

Edit. Alternatively this could be implemented as a new god who can be joined just once.

It would have to be a completely passive god who does literally nothing except raise your stats and who will not take those benefits away no matter what you do. And it would have to be available in a form that is guaranteed to appear before any altars, so we'd make it a starting character choice. But in that case, why not simply implement it as a new race??

I like playing stupid characters who don't use active abilities and basically don't spend any time on gods. It means I join Makhleb and do nothing after that.
This new god could provide another valid option. New species is too limiting, why should I penalize myself if I want to play a Sp without god? Sp does not need heal on kills that much

[Bloax]

+ Crawl loses a distinctively direct and simple species (Hu) that is well defined precisely by not having major game-altering rewards and penalties (called "innovations" by some and "gimmicks" by others) foisted upon them due to their species
+ Most fundamentally: There is a perhaps subtle but nonetheless (IMO) important difference between getting a reward for maintaining godlessness, versus being forced to be godless and having to adapt to this fact. The former feels quite at odds with species design, while the latter fits (some species can't worship certain gods, one species cannot worship any gods).

The game doesn't really lose a "plain" race, since it's still the good old plain human race unless you decide not to become the champion of some puny god - but a hero of your own. (And let's be honest, how often do you play godless?)
And while being rewarded for godlessness is indeed pretty unusual - that would be the core of the proposal, something unusual!

[Bart]

Its kind of hard to balance it with this ambivalence. There are two choices for this new race but someone's gonna figure out "hey demigod muts suck" or "hey these demigod muts are godly", and soon one of these aspects will simply be written off because the other one is proven to be better.

It's like saying that somebody is going to figure out that maces are better than axes and never, ever use axes again. That's not true, because in my perfect vision the choice would be situation dependent.

(...) Are you considered a demigod until then, or a human until then? (...)

It' wasn't my main concern, but I perceive this species as humans, who once in a while become heroes/demigods - not monsters. When this happens? When the game decides they are ready. If deterministic name change on level 14 is not flavourful enough, make it happen after defeating enemy with certain HDs - the name change should be cosmetic, though.

The only thing it changes about demigods is getting your stats +2 at a time, and gaining extra hp/mp at certain levels, rather than from the start. I suppose you're also giving them robust 2 instead of only 1; but I like that - it seemed odd to me that demigods don't have even hp/mp aptitudes.

It's different early gameplay. It's the possibility of getting off the path to godhood if it becomes too difficult. It's more enjoyable experience curve. I believe these three are enough to offer major gameplay change.

+ You don't get the good HP/MP stat at beginning, which is one of the majorly nice things about dg.

Exactly. I want to take that nice, convenient benefit from them and force player to earn it. Humans are not squishy. They should be able to get it.

+ There are lots of breakpoints in terms of atheist Hu getting bonuses, and I'm not sure what the point of these breakpoints are in this case. (...) I'm worried that this could introduce bad metagaming and planning considerations (...)

I agree. The point of bringing the mutations over time is rewarding persistence. The mutations could appear on non-fixed levels, yet in some experience level range. It works well for demonspawn and I see no reason why it wouldn't here.

+ Crawl loses a distinctively direct and simple species (Hu) that is well defined precisely by not having major game-altering rewards and penalties (called "innovations" by some and "gimmicks" by others)

Yes. On the other hand, how often have you seen so far godless humans? I believe that giving them one more option to go isn't breaking their simplicity too much.

+ Most fundamentally: There is a perhaps subtle but nonetheless (IMO) important difference between getting a reward for maintaining godlessness, versus being forced to be godless and having to adapt to this fact. The former feels quite at odds with species design, while the latter fits (some species can't worship certain gods, one species cannot worship any gods).

It's not that subtle, as a matter of fact. I have two pictures in my head, though: "Have a cookie! Tasty? Sorry, there's only one!" and "If you are patient and don't eat a cookie now, you will get two later". The latter is more appealing to me. I really like the word "if".

I like this idea but I am not sure why it is limited to humans only: every species might get robust, MP+ mutations and stat bonuses if staying godless.
Edit. Alternatively this could be implemented as a new god who can be joined just once.

This is not worth another god, which would be also far from my concept. I am worried about balance when implemented for species which are defined by low stats / low health.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Exactly. I want to take that nice, convenient benefit from them and force player to earn it.

So you think Demigod is too good.

[duvessa]

If you want players to choose between not having a god and having a god, it's pretty weird to try to make that choice exist for only one race. I'm also not fond of "demigods turn into humans when they worship a god" - that's like "let octopodes wear body armour, but they lose 6 ring slots when they put it on."

[NessOnett]

Forgive me if this seems to be off-topic, but I have been approaching this whole thing from a lore perspective(Feel free to disregard it completely if you consider this irrelevant). Demi-gods, by definition, are partially Gods, descendant of pure Gods. We can agree on this point assuredly, correct?(The alternative being if the species is renames and revamped into something different, which is a possible route, but for the purposes of this I am going to assume we are keeping them as "Demigods.")

Crawl takes plenty of its lore and by extension mechanics from historical fiction. And we can look very clearly and see tons of examples of "Demigods" in plenty of texts. Not the least of which is that well known scamp called Heracles(or Hercules depending). And there's plenty of others, but he's a good recognizable name that people can turn to and remember. Now his most infamous trait is his super-human abilities. Be them Strength, Intelligence, or Agility, which credit to the current incarnation of his likeness, Demigods already possess in their well above average stats and growths. But he and his kind were known for quite more than those mere capacities. Heracles was the bravest of men, able to stand in the face of danger and never succumb to fear*cough*. He was known far and wide for his ability to hurl large boulders at his enemies with great force and accuracy*cough*. He was also a man of remarkable sexual prowess(not sure where this could be implemented). But at his core, is his ability to learn new skills and adapt to new situations, swift mastery of all arts and weapons he is introduced to, which is diametrically opposed to the poor skills aptitudes Dg are currently using(I know people think this a boring change, but it has been suggested so many times because it's horrendously counter-intuitive. As counter-intuitive as if Octopodes couldn't swim or Mummies were resistant to fire).

Demigods could have so many things going for them which would actually make them feel like Demigods. Right now they just seem like Atheist humans with poor skills cancelling out their slightly above average stats.

[duvessa]

Actually the high stats already mean demigods get spell success/power faster than humans, and in many/most cases, melee/launcher/throwing damage as well.

Also, crawl had fire resistant mummies for several versions, so that comparison isn't helping your case very much.

[cerebovssquire]

He was also a man of remarkable sexual prowess(not sure where this could be implemented).

well, there was that spider god proposal

[NessOnett]

Actually the high stats already mean demigods get spell success/power faster than humans, and in many/most cases, melee/launcher/throwing damage as well.

Also, crawl had fire resistant mummies for several versions, so that comparison isn't helping your case very much.

You seem to have missed the point Duvessa. Firstly, it's not about spells, it's about everything. Demigods, historically were able to "Master weaponry in a fraction of the time it took normal humans." Which means that not only would they be able to more effectively wield an axe with proficiency as a human with just as much proficiency, due to their increased strength; but attaining that proficiency took them far less time. As for spells, the extra int may make them able to learn spells at a 'similar' rate to humans, but they should be far and above their meager counterparts in this area.

But a BIG problem with this logic is the human part. Demigods were "Stronger than Bulls," "Swifter than Horses," etc. Even if Demigods can barely edge Humans in mastery of an Axe, they get trounced by a Minotaur, who they should be close to par with at worst.

As for the part about Large Rocks. There's an item in the game called "Large Rocks." Some species can throw them, others can't. My point was that Demigods are currently in the latter, when they should be in the former. It has nothing to do with launcher damage.

And the mummy comparison is helping my case a lot by that very point. It was something that was initially implemented(like the backwards demigods), and later reversed because it was at its core extremely counter-intuitive. Mummys didn't lose their rF and gain rF- because they needed to be nerfed, it was because it was so backwards that it couldn't be allowed to persist any longer as it didn't make any sense in the context of the game; and there was drive from the community for it to be fixed(Sound familiar?).

[and into]

Well, as I said in other thread, what I like about demigods is that they force you to adapt, being human-like, with good and well rounded stats, and unable to worship a god, and this last and most important factor would go away if demigods were folded into humans as proposed.

The more I think about it, the more this is not really like demigods at all, since at any moment you can just opt out by saying, "Nah, I'll just go worship <foo>." The fact that one hardly ever sees godless humans is completely beside the point. You do occasionally see demigods being played, and I myself do sometimes, but I don't think I'd ever go human godless in order to kind of, sort of play as a demigod, except worse, but which can stop being a "demigod" right in the middle of the game. Of the different "camps" in Tavern w/r/t demigods, I'm not sure which or whom this would actually end up satisfying, except as a stealth reform (increase experience and skill aptitudes but lose robustness until level 14—which is a nerf, btw).

[bcadren]

Actually the high stats already mean demigods get spell success/power faster than humans, and in many/most cases, melee/launcher/throwing damage as well.

But the stat difference isn't enough higher than Elves to make up for the poor apts. Especially since DE gets excellent magic Apts and INT. HE is perhaps a better comparison though; slightly above average magic apts, highest stats in the game aside from Dg (usually will have higher INT and DEX than demigod unless Demigods get relatively low STR ticks in the sid/2). I've been over this before though... When talking about Demigod's stat difference, you need to talk about the next closest (HE) more than the average race (Hu). The opposite race (Ghouls, with the worst stats in the game) probably never really make up for their stats regardless of what you do always being weaker than any other race; but people never talk about changing Ghouls hah.

[NessOnett]

but people never talk about changing Ghouls hah.

Challenge Accepted!

I'll make a thread on that sometime this weekend. But it's lower priority than both Dg and Mu(but probably the next most dire after those two).

[duvessa]

Firstly, it's not about spells, it's about everything. Demigods, historically were able to "Master weaponry in a fraction of the time it took normal humans." Which means that not only would they be able to more effectively wield an axe with proficiency as a human with just as much proficiency, due to their increased strength; but attaining that proficiency took them far less time. As for spells, the extra int may make them able to learn spells at a 'similar' rate to humans, but they should be far and above their meager counterparts in this area.

And both of these things are true in crawl. That's exactly what I was saying. Demigods virtually always have better spell success and power than a human with the same experience spent. The same goes for ranged combat damage. Humans do sometimes have better melee damage, but this only happens at pretty low skill levels and is often untrue even then. The same also goes for EV.

But a BIG problem with this logic is the human part. Demigods were "Stronger than Bulls," "Swifter than Horses," etc. Even if Demigods can barely edge Humans in mastery of an Axe, they get trounced by a Minotaur, who they should be close to par with at worst.

You mention Crawl's demigods, minotaurs, and centaurs in the same sentence, and it's the demigods that you complain about not matching Greek mythology? Not that you have given any reason for Crawl to care about this in the first place. Adherence to Greek mythology is not a design goal. The word "Greek" appears in the following contexts in the source: reference to the modern language and character set, as part of the internal name for a vault (such as roderic_greek_sauvastika), a comment about the pluralization of "eidolon", and a monster speech line where Donald complains that "it's all Greek to me".

And the mummy comparison is helping my case a lot by that very point. It was something that was initially implemented(like the backwards demigods), and later reversed because it was at its core extremely counter-intuitive. Mummys didn't lose their rF and gain rF- because they needed to be nerfed, it was because it was so backwards that it couldn't be allowed to persist any longer as it didn't make any sense in the context of the game; and there was drive from the community for it to be fixed(Sound familiar?).

This is not what happened at all. The mummies that had rF+, bog mummies, were never given rF-. They just happened to be renamed to bog bodies, for purposes that were probably unrelated to rF-.

[NessOnett]

Firstly, it's not about spells, it's about everything. Demigods, historically were able to "Master weaponry in a fraction of the time it took normal humans." Which means that not only would they be able to more effectively wield an axe with proficiency as a human with just as much proficiency, due to their increased strength; but attaining that proficiency took them far less time. As for spells, the extra int may make them able to learn spells at a 'similar' rate to humans, but they should be far and above their meager counterparts in this area.

And both of these things are true in crawl. That's exactly what I was saying. Demigods virtually always have better spell success and power than a human with the same experience spent. The same goes for ranged combat damage. Humans do sometimes have better melee damage, but this only happens at pretty low skill levels and is often untrue even then. The same also goes for EV.

You're misunderstanding still. In addition to that, Skills should ALSO be training faster. "Mastery" means "not being able to get any better." In the context of crawl, that means level 27 in the given skill. And Demigods can "Achieve mastery with any weapon in a fraction of the time it would take a mere human." Which means all else equal, they should hit 27 faster, aka having higher aptitudes.

As for the Greek things...I could cite thousands of things from the Unique "Polyphemus" to the concept of Centaurs in general. My point was not specifically Greek. My point was "Reference." Things in the game that borrow concepts from established sources generally take direction from those sources. Mummies have proficiency in necromancy because...all mythology about mummies shows them with affinity for the dead. Minotaurs have horns because...all mythology about Minotaurs show them as having horns. And by extension Demigods should have the powers of Demigods because Demigods are based on Demigods. And naming them Demigods while designing them to be the polar opposite is counter intuitive and dishonest.

[Sar]

solution: cap Dg skills at 13

[TheDefiniteArticle]

"Mastery" means "not being able to get any better."

  Code:

comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment.

  Code:

control or superiority over someone or something.

  Code:

knowledge and skill that allows you to do, use, or understand something very well

  Code:

1. command or grasp, as of a subject: a mastery of Italian.
2. superiority or victory: mastery over one's enemies.
3. the act of mastering.
4. expert skill or knowledge.
5. the state of being master; power of command or control.

I can't find any that say "not able to get any better." Maybe you meant "Perfection"?

And naming them Demigods while designing them to be the polar opposite is counter intuitive and dishonest.

Demigods are better than (atheist) Humans at everything. Your implication otherwise is dishonest.

[duvessa]

"Mastery" means "not being able to get any better."

Also, that logic would suggest that demigods would be more in keeping with the myth if their skills were capped at 20, since then they would indeed reach "mastery" much faster than humans...

As for the Greek things...I could cite thousands of things from the Unique "Polyphemus" to the concept of Centaurs in general. My point was not specifically Greek. My point was "Reference." Things in the game that borrow concepts from established sources generally take direction from those sources. Mummies have proficiency in necromancy because...all mythology about mummies shows them with affinity for the dead. Minotaurs have horns because...all mythology about Minotaurs show them as having horns. And by extension Demigods should have the powers of Demigods because Demigods are based on Demigods. And naming them Demigods while designing them to be the polar opposite is counter intuitive and dishonest.

The Minotaur of myth wasn't a mostly-human master of martial arts that was good at navigating mazes, he was a monster that was basically an angry animal with a few human features, and a labyrinth was built to trap him inside. Real-life mummies didn't and don't have an affinity for the dead, they are just preserved dead bodies, and the supernatural features most commonly ascribed to them were medicinal powers - "the mummy's curse" wasn't a thing before at least the Renaissance, and the idea of mummies coming back from the dead didn't exist until the 1800s. Crawl's minotaurs/centaurs/mummies/everything else have a few features in common with myth (but mostly D&D) and often dramatically depart from them elsewhere. Demigods exhibit at least as many features of mythological demigods (superhuman strength and intellect) as minotaurs do of the mythological Minotaur, and a lot more than Crawl's zombies do of Voodoo zombies or Crawl's golems do of Jewish golems.

[Hopeless]

All the pedantry, sarcasm and sophistry (on all sides) aside, I can't say I love this idea.

Maybe the problem is that while some players (myself included) decidedly loath DGs because they are hard to play (unless you know how to play them I suppose) and as a result perhaps unfun (unless you like a challenge) there is apparently no good way to make them better without adding "having a God" as an option, to their mix. I vote leave DGs alone (for whatever that is worth.) Also I can't see a good reason to merge Human with Demigod though the "make it more generic so that any species can be an atheist with benefits" idea has merit imho (since atheism is currently bad).

In terms of Gaming History and as to where the idea of the race "Demigod" comes from: I believe crawl borrowed from Angband's High men (Dunedain) a Tolkien race of men who were better than ordinary humans at almost everything (fecundity being their weakness). So whilst Demigod has its roots in English as a Greek mythos trope I suspect the name in this game was changed/created to differentiate them from other games versions of the same idea. Just as we have Lava Orcs and Hill Orcs as opposed to Half Orcs, etc.

I'd propose an Atheist state that you can choose that is irrevocable (maybe P on an abandoned shrine and Y to agree) and which gives you some small benefits to compensate and model those benefits on how the DG race is now. That way you can make Humans earn "Demigod" status (and that could be a challenge way to win the game) as you want instead of playing the DG race which would remain intact. Of course DG themselves would be unable to benefit from this but hey they can't have it all. (I am a proponent of adding things not taking stuff away, in general. Especially if there is an obvious niche, and especially if the addition isn't causing undue harm to the rest of the game.)

[DracheReborn]

Bart: I respect your proposal, but the end result looks like some odd kind of demonspawn. I'd much rather play any of those current species (Ds, Hu, or Dg) than this one. But as you say maybe it's a matter of taste. Someone who doesn't like to play current Hu or Dg might find this appealing.

[Turukano]

The round one is therefore officially lost and I have to start round two from bad position - CYC -

Some months ago I made the Proposal: split "Crazy Yiuf's Corner" for getting two different forums, one for serious and one for nonsense communication, but the idea didn't succeed.

[Bart]

Thanks for comments. It would be difficult to respond to everybody in particular, so let me write instead that you helped me understand your opinions.

Of the different "camps" in Tavern w/r/t demigods, I'm not sure which or whom this would actually end up satisfying

I made an assumption that compromise is possible, but barely nobody is interested in compromises. At least we avoid mediocrity, right? Unless this mediocrity is already implemented, then we should defend it in the name of *balance*!

Ok, back to serious. You often refer not to the gameplay itself, but also to symbolic meaning, background and ideals. Things which I disregarded are actually important to many of you, namely:
- strength of demigod in early game, which is something I actually dislike. Matter of taste.
- demigod flavour. I find no flavour in current version, but some actually do. Maybe I should have avoided using "demigod" word in my proposal, but that would probably aggravate demigod's defenders even more.
- inability to make a choice (sic!). I am truly shocked that being forced to godless experience is actually making this experience more appealing, but I can't argue with that.
- providing path to demigod's title only for human. I had mixed feelings when I suggested that, but I thought it would be nice to try the approach on well-rounded species and if it works, maybe extend it further? Also in my opinion humans still resemble demigods the most of all species... I thought I can keep this way demigod fans satisfied (false!)
- removing core demigod experience. I believe that having an option to get benefits from staying godless could initially work in parallel to demigod existence, but soon it would be difficult to justify why we keep two similar concepts in the game. If they are not so similar, I have another question: Would it be interesting to see my proposal as "grant benefits to godless characters"? I am afraid, though, that Vinestalker pumped up in a suggested way would not be easy to accept (or am I exaggerating?).

[duvessa]

- inability to make a choice (sic!). I am truly shocked that being forced to godless experience is actually making this experience more appealing, but I can't argue with that.

IMO it's good that mummies are unable to choose to drink potions, and fine that ogres are unable to choose to worship two gods at once.

[Baldu3]

I guess I should post some since demigods are my favorite and most played race. I love playing them because they have no god and they have increased stats and increased HP. The big issue with the part of your proposal about getting other races to become demigods by not taking a god is that the increased stats and hp wouldn't be there before lair, and they are a massive advantage there and make that part of the game I've played hundreds of times much more interesting.

Also I really want to point it out once more for all those who arent as experienced with demigods: with the same progress (so same total experience gained) as any other race, they are almost always better at everything, even if their xl and aptitudes says it should be lower, and they also have higher HP. The cost is not having a god. A cost that is interesting and befitting the huge advantages gained by increased stats and hp.

For real, try it out. Being able to cast high level spells with high dodging and high HP while carrying a full inventory of heavy items is something no one else can do so early except for chei followers. I love being able to do that without following chei.

[Bart]

IMO it's good that mummies are unable to choose to drink potions, and fine that ogres are unable to choose to worship two gods at once.

These examples do not resemble my proposal. If anything, more appropriate comparison would be casting necromutation which prevents you from drinking potions, except that in my proposal the result is permanent, so you can't just juggle between healing once in a while and torment resistance in other cases. At any point of game you get an option to make a choice, but there's no way back. As the case is now, I have to select a species... and that's it. If I don't like it, I can do nothing about it and I'm stuck with my selection. Less of an issue with other species, it seriously discourages me from continuing many demigod games. The possibility to make a permanent, instant game-changing choice after species selection would be a unique feature, which we do not have now.

The big issue with the part of your proposal about getting other races to become demigods by not taking a god is that the increased stats and hp wouldn't be there before lair, and they are a massive advantage there and make that part of the game I've played hundreds of times much more interesting.

I see no problem with moving the first HP/MP mutations earlier in the game - that's why I described the concept as rough. Giving robust/increased mana capacity mutations earlier will make pre-lair easier and thus encourage to atheist style (good!)

[Baldu3]

The big issue with the part of your proposal about getting other races to become demigods by not taking a god is that the increased stats and hp wouldn't be there before lair, and they are a massive advantage there and make that part of the game I've played hundreds of times much more interesting.

I see no problem with moving the first HP/MP mutations earlier in the game - that's why I described the concept as rough. Giving robust/increased mana capacity mutations earlier will make pre-lair easier and thus encourage to atheist style (good!)

I'm pretty sure I would super miss my extra HP and stats on d1, but maybe it could be worth a try.

For reference for anyone not used to demigod power, here's one at end of a 4 rune (3lair+1vault) game (note I was about to wear a wizard ring and learn tornado but then decided against going to extended):

  Code:

HP 221/221       AC 25     Str 19      XL: 27
MP  39/49        EV 25     Int 33      God:
Gold 3803        SH 20     Dex 22      Spells: 16 memorised,  7 levels left

   Skills:
 - Level 13.0 Fighting
 - Level 10.0 Dodging
 - Level 7.6 Stealth
 - Level 5.3 Shields
 - Level 1.0 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 22.1 Spellcasting
 - Level 22.0 Conjurations
 - Level 3.2 Charms
 - Level 4.0 Summonings
 - Level 10.0 Necromancy
 + Level 23.0 Air Magic
 - Level 11.0 Earth Magic
 - Level 15.0 Evocations

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Magic Dart            Conj           ####         0%          1    None
b - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ########     0%          4    None
c - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth #######...   1%          5    None
d - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ########..   1%          7    None
e - Chain Lightning       Conj/Air       ########..   1%          8    ###....
f - Poisonous Cloud       Conj/Pois/Air  #######...   1%          6    None
g - Summon Elemental      Summ           ######....   1%          4    None
h - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          0%          1    None
k - Passwall              Trmt/Erth      ######....   1%          3    None
l - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
m - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       ######       0%          2    None
o - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #######.     0%          2    None
x - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           #######...   1%          2    None
B - Iskenderun's Battles  Conj/Chrm      #######.     1%          5    None
C - Lee's Rapid Deconstr  Erth           #######...   1%          5    None
F - Freezing Cloud        Conj/Ice/Air   #######...   1%          6    None

Actions
-------
Melee: ~2500
 Cast: ~6000
 Abil: 12
Evoke: ~350
  Use: 187
 Stab: 48


[dck]

Well without getting entangled into more billions of words I believe Hu are a great race and Dg are a great race too, and would not like to see them gone (which they effectively would be if they were merged as proposed).
Yes, one could just not acknowledge the new stuff. No, that is not really an option to be considered because the player should not have to cripple himself to conserve a gameplay option that has been available and widely enjoyed for ages.
I could just not drink potions, that's not a reason to remove mummies.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

The possibility to make a permanent, instant game-changing choice after species selection would be a unique feature, which we do not have now.

Do you even know how gods work?????

The fact that demigods don't have a choice like that is their defining feature!

[Baldu3]

Do you even know how gods work?????

Urg, you gotta work on your communications skill. Bart definitely knows his crawl. He just doesn't enjoy demigods and is trying to find a way to enjoy them. And considering this topic comes up every couple of weeks he's not the only one.

Anyway, so far suggestions have not convinced any coder to spend time on changing demigods. As usual, if anyone thinks they have a great idea worth trying, code it and submit it, it will be tried out, and if it's cool, it will end up in the game.

[Turukano]

Do you even know how gods work?????

Baldu3 already made a link to Bart's scoring table. Dislike for TheDefiniteArticle's post for offending one of the best DCSS players. Have a look at these statistics too if you like.

[dck]

Welp time to start measuring dicks then instead of checking the logical soundness of proposed changes.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Urg, you gotta work on your communications skill. Bart definitely knows his crawl.

If he's the master of all that is Crawl perhaps he should work on his communication skills. Because so far all he's done is suggest simultaneously making demigod much weaker and making their implementation and interface much more complicated, and the only concrete reasons he's offered are that he thinks Demigods are too strong, and that he thinks Demigods would be more fun if they had the option to turn into Humans.

Forgive me calling out an obviously bogus argument. Put everybody's online winrate in their signature so I know beforehand whether or not they are allowed to lie about how the game works.

In the spirit of Bart being right about everything, here's my awesome proposal for merging Vine Stalkers with Humans: You get all the Vine Stalker mutations right from the start, and Frail 3, but the moment you quaff a potion of heal wounds you lose all the mutations forever. Obviously having more choices makes this version of Vine Stalker way more interesting and fun while detracting nothing from their design.

In fact, let's merge all races with Humans!! You change your race in-game as a one time deal. There'll be a special level on, I don't know, let's say D4; after all we want people to earn it. And why does it have to be a one time deal? We could let people change race more than once for even more interesting decisions! But this decision is supposed to be a big deal, so we better add a cost to it. Some sort of long-lasting punishment for abandoning a race. Hell, this design even allows us to put special niche races in lategame areas, that could do stuff that is too crazy for the "normal" races.

Wow this totally unique idea that has never been implemented in Crawl before sounds fun. We should add it to trunk ASAP.

He just doesn't enjoy demigods and is trying to find a way to enjoy them. And considering this topic comes up every couple of weeks he's not the only one.

Centaurs and Deep Dwarves are easily the two strongest races in the game, yet are also less popular than Demigods. Octopodes tied with Demigods for the least wins in the tournament, but Demigods had a much higher winrate. Why is there no call to fix these races? Because there's no rational basis for the demigod hate to begin with. Just like there was no rational basis for all the Mountain Dwarf whining.

[Bart]

@TheDefiniteArticle, do you even try posting something constructive ever? Because what you did here was throwing destructive shit at people without explaining your point of view. If you disagree with me, try some better arguments than:

Make Demigod drastically weaker
Make Demigod way more complicated for no apparent reason
Make Demigod strictly worse than Human in any game where a non-Chei altar generates on D2
Make Demigod randomly suffer god wrath even though this completely defeats the point of having a religion-free character

You just come in the middle of some exchange of views, throw few sarcastic comments and believe that they were convincing enough? Or do you think they were funny? I'll tell you - neither. They are hateful, irritating and flooding the topic which was otherwise interesting discussion.

If he's the master of all that is Crawl perhaps he should work on his communication skills. Because so far all he's done is suggest simultaneously making demigod much weaker and making their implementation and interface much more complicated, and the only concrete reasons he's offered are that he thinks Demigods are too strong, and that he thinks Demigods would be more fun if they had the option to turn into Humans.

Did you comprehend what I've posted here? I proposed to buff Demigod's aptitudes and give them faster exp gain, but you see only the harder early game part.
Implementation is already available - just look at demonspawn/draconian. I can hardly imagine how do you play Crawl if proposed solution exceeds your understanding of simplicity and clarity. What does it even have to do with interface?
Lastly, I never used an argument that demigods are too strong and your sarcastic twisting of my proposal is a very weak explanation to why the concept is bad.

Forgive me calling out an obviously bogus argument. Put everybody's online winrate in their signature so I know beforehand whether or not they are allowed to lie about how the game works.
In the spirit of Bart being right about everything, here's my awesome proposal for merging Vine Stalkers with Humans: You get all the Vine Stalker mutations right from the start, and Frail 3, but the moment you quaff a potion of heal wounds you lose all the mutations forever. Obviously having more choices makes this version of Vine Stalker way more interesting and fun while detracting nothing from their design.

In fact, let's merge all races with Humans!! You change your race in-game as a one time deal. There'll be a special level on, I don't know, let's say D4; after all we want people to earn it. And why does it have to be a one time deal? We could let people change race more than once for even more interesting decisions! But this decision is supposed to be a big deal, so we better add a cost to it. Some sort of long-lasting punishment for abandoning a race. Hell, this design even allows us to put special niche races in lategame areas, that could do stuff that is too crazy for the "normal" races.

Wow this totally unique idea that has never been implemented in Crawl before sounds fun. We should add it to trunk ASAP.

Please, go away with your hate and sarcasm. In this way you add nothing valuable. I don't want to ignore your posts, but I'm very close to it.

Centaurs and Deep Dwarves are easily the two strongest races in the game, yet are also less popular than Demigods. Octopodes tied with Demigods for the least wins in the tournament, but Demigods had a much higher winrate. Why is there no call to fix these races? Because there's no rational basis for the demigod hate to begin with. Just like there was no rational basis for all the Mountain Dwarf whining.

Both in tournament and 0.14 online in general Demigods were the least played species. I don't care about win ratio, because it doesn't prove interest in species. Check demigod reform topic for details. If you like demigods the way they are right now and so does majority of Crawl's community, I have no problem with that. I respect that, even though I have different point of view. Stop rocketing my view just because it is not yours and you do not agree with it. I will be much happier to rationally discuss with you rather than watch out to not get too involved into your hate game.

[Abominae]

How is this proposal any different from giving Humans an extra "god" to worship? TheDefiniteArticle brings up this question multiple times (albeit, in not the kindest fashion), and I have yet to see a convincing argument refuting that. That is literally what this proposal is trying to acomplish: Let Hu worship a "god" to become the species "Dg."

And I don't see the reasoning behind why this should be implemented. What is the reasoning that this is a better idea than just buffing Demigod experience, HP multiplier, and skill aptitudes? What does this proposal really solve outside of some subjective fun type argument? (in which case, my subjective fun has the same value as your subjective fun, so you don't actually have an argument.)

Edit: I should clarify this. Having the choice to choose atheism for god-like rewards still constitutes the choice of not choosing a god. Demigods never have a choice. Therefore, this fundamentally changes Demigod's defining mechanic, and I don't see a strong argument as to why this should be done.

[NessOnett]

Demigods are better than (atheist) Humans at everything. Your implication otherwise is dishonest.

They are worse at learning. Fact. It is hard coded into the game, that is how aptitudes work. And that's to say nothing of general experience, which is 1 for Hu and -2 for Dg, which is horrendous with basically no payoff.
Trying to lie past that fact is extremely dishonest.

But instead of constantly lying about the objective facts in the game, why doesn't anyone try to offer some reasoning as to why demigods have the learning skills of an geriatric down-syndrome person with Alzheimer's? There is literally zero justification.

Demigods are supposed to be better than Humans, at everything, period...by admission of even people who disagree with me. In exchange for not having a God. So why are they objectively worse at so many things?

[dck]

A Hu in D: 1 (any Hu, unless they have a god background but that's just cheating) will always be drastically weaker than a Dg in D: 1. D: 1 is a rather important level of the game.
Sometimes this massive disparity in terms of weakness will carry on for even the next two levels. These two dlevels are very important levels as well.

This proposal is in all strictness a direct nerf to Dg (except current Dg would not exist under this proposal). The HP and MP muts kick in exceedingly late to have anything at all to do with the impact high HP and MP apts have in Dg, so do the attributes (except this is even worse because all you get is completely based on the roll of the dice).

Now, this does not just remove Dg and its play style from the table but it also removes the option of playing an atheist Hu for no reason. That is bad, but worse yet is that the new species Dg is under this proposal hidden behind fourteen levels of experience and the label Hu now. And it is not even a species, it's a god you start out worshiping and you cannot rejoin if you leave. That is just a straight up ridiculous way to add a god, I think.

I care about this because Hu and Dg are probably in the top three of best designed races and the proposed changes would ruin both significantly. Similarly I can see why you would choose to focus on TheDefiniteArticle's choice of words and tone rather than what he's actually saying but he's giving very constructive feedback on why this idea isn't very good or would fit in crawl at all (particularly in current crawl).

[Thalfon]

I wonder if the demigod bonuses just aren't obvious or clear enough. It's obviously not the problem for those posting here, who know how the stats work, but when it comes to counting games played/won, it might explain why Dg is low on the list. I wonder how many players notice the stats or the effects they have, or if they only see the godless human with bad apts. The aptitudes screen, which is what a player is most likely to check when picking a race in the game, makes no mention of stats. Not sure how to fix that (or if it's even really a problem) though. Maybe start them with the str/dex/int mutations and reduce starting stats by the same amount? (This would protect from stat-reducing mutations, which couldn't override the racials, but otherwise leave things as-is.)

I'm playing a DgFE right now, and despite screwing up my early skilling (had only fire magic on, somehow totally forgot to train conjurations) I felt strong, like having Vehumet's wizardry bonus, but better since it also affects spellpower and hunger costs. Not to mention being able to stand in melee with dangerous targets while they burn. I'm aware that the stats and HP aptitude are responsible, but that's from outside knowledge.

In any case, I like the idea of a strong atheistic race that doesn't replace god selection with some other sort of godlike power such as Ds mutations. I don't mind whether it's (called) demigod or not, but a simple, strong, atheistic race is something I'd like to see stay around, personally.

[duvessa]

Demigods are better than (atheist) Humans at everything. Your implication otherwise is dishonest.

They are worse at learning. Fact. It is hard coded into the game, that is how aptitudes work.

Okay, let's rephrase it as "they're better than atheist humans at everything that's good to be better at." Your argument is like saying that "demigods are worse than humans at being humans" or "demigods are worse than humans at having low stats" or "demigods are worse than humans at losing the game" - it's true but it doesn't really do anything to support your position.

Also, making fun of mental illness and the elderly isn't a particularly good way to win arguments, even on the Internet, just fyi.

[Viashino_wizard]

Demigods are better than (atheist) Humans at everything. Your implication otherwise is dishonest.

They are worse at learning. Fact.

Except that doesn't matter, because a Dg is going to outperform a godless Hu with the same amount of experience regardless of the numbers on the skill screen.

Similarly I can see why you would choose to focus on TheDefiniteArticle's choice of words and tone rather than what he's actually saying but he's giving very constructive feedback on why this idea isn't very good or would fit in crawl at all (particularly in current crawl).

Well he has to focus on TDA's tone, he doesn't have a valid response to the actual argument.

[Sandman25]

Well he has to focus on TDA's tone, he doesn't have a valid response to the actual argument.

This is not true, just change your point of view, forget about Dg and compare it with current Hu so instead of

Make Demigod drastically weaker
Make Demigod way more complicated for no apparent reason
Make Demigod strictly worse than Human in any game where a non-Chei altar generates on D2
Make Demigod randomly suffer god wrath even though this completely defeats the point of having a religion-free character

you will get

Make atheist Hu drastically stronger
Make atheist Hu way more interesting
Make atheist Hu not strictly worse than Hu in any game where a non-Chei altar generates on D2
Make atheist Hu way more interesting

[duvessa]

Make atheist Hu drastically stronger
Make atheist Hu way more complicated for no apparent reason
Make atheist Hu not strictly worse than Hu in any game where a non-Chei altar generates on D2
Make atheist Hu randomly suffer god wrath even though this completely defeats the point of having a religion-free character

1, 2, and 4 still sound pretty bad to me

[NessOnett]

Demigods are better than (atheist) Humans at everything. Your implication otherwise is dishonest.

They are worse at learning. Fact.

Except that doesn't matter, because a Dg is going to outperform a godless Hu with the same amount of experience regardless of the numbers on the skill screen.

*Sigh*I guess if people are gonna insist on continuing to be wrong. It's....Mathtime!

Human, and Demigod both want to cast a level 3 spell. For the purposes of this demonstration, I'm going to remove Backgrounds and stat levels(which both help the human), and assume that the Hu has gotten 0 +INT from random levelup bonuses, and Dg has gotten 2 +INT bonus', which is the maximum possible.
I will have the Human with 6 levels in all relevant skills/levels, with the Dg at 5(which is the smallest possible difference between the two of them, again giving more favor to the Dg)
Spell Success formula:
spellFailure = 60
- [6 * spell skills]
- [2 * Intelligence]
+ Spell difficulty
+ Armour/shield penalty
I will be using X and Y as placeholders for armor and shield penalties...which are even more favorable to Humans, because their skills in armor/shields would be higher or the same assuming all else equal.(tl;dr X < Y)

Human:
60 - 6[(6/2)+(6*2)] - 2(8) + 70 + X
60-90-16+70+X = 24+X

Demigod:
60 - 6[(5/2)+(5*2)] - 2(14) + 70 + Y
60-75-28+70+Y = 29+Y

Oooooooh, that hurts. Humans 5% more likely to cast the spell than Demigod(yes, I realize it goes through a few more transformations, but this is as far as needed to decide which is superior)...even before armor/shields is factored in, which would only help the Human. I can show the math with similar results for spell power, which on top of having base power advantages, also have attributes tied directly to skill level that ignore intelligence(such as Stoneskin's AC bonus being directly based off your earth magic).

And I stress, again, this is with every possible consideration taken to favor the Demigod as heavily as possible.


So how does the Dg outperform the Godless Hu at everything again? No, go ahead, keep saying that over and over despite me giving repeated evidence that that is a logical fallacy. ~4 bonus intelligence does not make up for a 1-level stepdown in all skills, and a 3-level stepdown in XP. And same goes for ~3 Str and ~3 Dex.

[basil]

Make atheist Hu way more interesting

Complex != interesting. Mf is more complex than Hu, but every game boils down to hitting things with a glaivediche and getting Haste and 30 EV with approx. 0 experience investment. Vp is substantially more complex than Hu, but the primary thing it does is make the somewhat-fiddly food system much more fiddly, which is not interesting or even pleasant. Hu is interesting because it is what Crawl is balanced towards: flat apts make it so that one weapon class or armour type or what-have-you is not a "no brainer," you generally have a wide choice of beneficial gods (unlike DD), normal movespeed lets you use tactics and such that apply to a wide variety of other races (slow and fast movement both fuck that up), etc.

I also like Dg because sometimes I don't feel like messing around with religion: most of them provide great boons with next to no sacrifice, which I sort of dislike. Dg also moderates the difficulty of the game somewhat, letting you kill some nastier things early on and requiring some more thought past lair, since you can't rely on Finesse or Corruption or burning through a legendary deck of Summonings to make your problems go away. And most of what I like about Hu also applies to Dg.

I'd rather not they be merged though, since that would take away one of the benefits of Dg, and an optional restriction is less meaningful than a mandatory one.

[cerebovssquire]

1, 2, and 4 still sound pretty bad to me

3 sounds bad to me as well. The whole point of random item/altar spawns is to create characters of varying strength so that there is replay value. I'm fine with an altar spawning on D:2 and one's character being a lot better as a result. (Also, it's not like I'd instantly pick any non-Chei god that spawned on D:2, but that's beside the point.)

[Sandman25]

I am not sure what to say here except for me having choice "Do I want some god or stay godless to get more HP/MP" is not that complicated, instead of N options (gods) you have N+1 option. It does not change any aptitudes etc. so I don't see how analogy with Mf/Vp etc. can apply here, you still have the same Hu as before.