Few Simple Branch Seeds


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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 08:25

Few Simple Branch Seeds

I was told in order to float a branch, not only does the flavour need to be unique, but unique dungeon features need to be used and the style has to be unique; unique monsters that go well with each other are also important, but that seems more obvious than the former. Some of the older branches already break this (Snake and Crypt use very similar layout algorithms, but differ in monster type only; the hells still aren't differentiated enough really, but I digress).

The following are three basic concepts for a branch that I think could grow into something:
  1. The Heavens
    • Monsters: Lots of holy, electric and flying creatures. Few dragons. Demigods may also spawn. Creatures like to use Cleansing Flame. Packs of creatures with rElec and Lightning bolt will shoot through each other heavily. Moves with knockback are also common (force lance and similar). Though many enemies fly, they are likely to punish you for flying (hexes that knock you down, Airstrike, etc.)
    • Unique Features:
      • Branch is backwards and very deep. (Heavens: 6 is the highest floor, Heavens 1 is the lowest).
      • All floors contain 'white fluffy' clouds which have no effect except preventing placing any other cloud.
      • There are no walls, instead there are sizeable holes between patches of floor. The holes are difficult for the player to fly across because of enemies using spells to knock you back or down when flying, but enemies fly through them no problem. Holes act like Shafts except they are the size of pools of magma or water and never close.
      • Heavens have a huge spawn rate and never stop spawning. Furthermore, being shafted/falling through a hole has a special effect to immediately call more enemies, make noise and place a sentinel's mark on you.
    • Placement: The heavens randomly replaces one of the hell branches; with a higher spawn rate if you are of a race that is weak to Holy (DS, Mu, etc.); Considered similar difficulty to Zot/Hell, but unique focus on Holy and Electric creatures. It also has a 'helllord' tier unique (uses Seraph as the base creature).
  2. The Desert
    • Monsters: Heavy 'earth' theme. Most monsters are somewhat slow and tanky as the terrain makes even slow creatures hard to avoid. Gargoyles, golems, emperor scorpions, Sphinxes, Manticores. Also insects that spit poison and acid and use an ability like submerge to hide under the sand; sand sharks and sand krakens also possible
    • Unique Features:
      • You are constantly 'buffeted by a sandstorm' [low power sandblast from 'god']. Effect is stronger while flying. Having decent AC will completely negate the effect for non-fliers (AC high enough to make spellcasting difficult is necessary)
      • The desert is an endless open area. There are no walls outside of vaults, but it's noisy (enemies don't hear you very easily and there's an innate Stealth boost to everything).
      • To add to the 'endless' part. The desert cannot be mapped and doesn't have outer walls. Instead it's a Cartesian plane, (when you hit the upper wall you are warped to the bottom wall without noticing). It's also constantly shifting. (Areas that are solid vs. quicksand change; new monsters spawn).
      • Quicksand is everywhere. This is land under permanent Liquefaction enchantment, which pulls you towards shafts.
      • Shafts in the desert may take you to the next floor as normal, or to a 'trap' room; which contains several monsters (poisonous insects and ghosts common) and a trapdoor back up only.
      • These trap rooms are spawned like portals; they disappear after leaving and aren't actually on the next floor.
      • Sand swallows all corpses making the branch near corpseless, without quick use of apportation, raise dead, etc.
    • Placement: Replaces Crypt and is far more difficult to leave than enter. (Effects pulling you into shafts make it hard to climb back up). There is a semi-normal end vault on Desert: $; which also includes a Tomb entrance, but the rest is...easy to get lost in.
  3. The Overgrown Temple
    • Monsters: Almost half the kinds of creatures in the overgrown temple are immobile. (Statues and Plants). The other half are quite the opposite (very fast and elusive). Tele Other is very common, forcing you to get close to statues if you have low to semi-low MR or no stasis. Confusion, Stat Drain, Bolt Spells (all elements) and corrosion are also common. None of the statues are Disintegration vulnerable.
    • Unique Features:
      • Having a large amount of immobile enemies is of itself a unique feature.
      • It's a branch that you'd want to dive, but have a difficult time diving due to needing to clear a path (destruct enough statues/plants to reach a downstaircase).
      • Walls are reflective (all attacks bolt bounce off of them, this includes Arrows) and nigh indestructible (requires shatter to have a chance).
      • Trees are as common as the reflective walls and are alive (will spawn tentacles if you get close).
      • Both water and lava flow through the temple, sections may be completely flooded.
      • Branch is made of semi-narrow tunnels, which force you to face multiple statues at once and (if you used stasis the whole way) clear large swatches of land from Plants and Statues before reaching any stairs.
      • Floors random spawning may build new statues and place new immobile plants (no other areas places new statues beyond the ones that spawned in).
    • Placement: This replacement for the Slime Pits fortunately has no malmutate; but is just as annoying. The endvault instead contains a plant and statue pair of immobile enemies, which heal each other, summon and (obviously) cannot be separated. Plants are harmless if of Fedhas (but going Jiyva already made the old branch trivial); statues get no such luck, leading to you having to face slightly more than half the normal monsters if you are of Fedhas.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 09:34

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

bcadren wrote:The heavens randomly replaces one of the hell branches;

Why would it make sense to get to the Heavens from the vestibule of Hell?
with a higher spawn rate if you are of a race that is weak to Holy (DS, Mu, etc.)

No other branch does this; why is it necessary?
You are constantly 'buffeted by a sandstorm' [low power sandblast from 'god'].[...]The desert is an endless open area. There are no walls outside of vaults, [...] To add to the 'endless' part. The desert cannot be mapped and doesn't have outer walls. Instead it's a Cartesian plane, (when you hit the upper wall you are warped to the bottom wall without noticing). It's also constantly shifting.

So... it's like the Abyss, but even more boring because there's nothing to look at, and with a weak version of hell effects?
Quicksand is everywhere. This is land under permanent Liquefaction enchantment, which pulls you towards shafts.

Liquefaction doesn't move things, it just slows them.

Also, why is it necessary to invent two or three complicated new types of terrain feature for each branch? Of the branches you intend on replacing (Hells, Crypt, Slime), only Slime has a unique terrain feature, and "don't stand next to it" is pretty straightforward.
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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 10:15

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

nicolae wrote:
bcadren wrote:The heavens randomly replaces one of the hell branches;

Why would it make sense to get to the Heavens from the vestibule of Hell?
From a flavour standpoint...erm...corrupted subvault that shows TSO-warriors taking over a corner of the vestibule?
From a mechanics standpoint...New branch that is standalone and doesn't replace something seems off the table I wanted it to be similar difficulty so that was where it made sense de facto.
Combination Suppose you could just have one of the hell branches sealed and having the entrance from a separate portal or branch in the depths? Can either be nothing there or a feature mimic in place of the portal.
nicolae wrote:
with a higher spawn rate if you are of a race that is weak to Holy (DS, Mu, etc.)

No other branch does this; why is it necessary?
Similar logic to good gods skipping holy pan. If it's a greater danger for you; you should be forced to do it more often. Suppose it's not necessary though. Alternative thought: make entering cause good god wrath so good god-followers would have to abandon in order to do it. Concern is TSO and Zin in particular making too many things friendly and making the branch too much easier than intended. Having one rune branch you can opt. out of with a god is OK. Having two is...no.
nicolae wrote:
bcadren wrote:You are constantly 'buffeted by a sandstorm' [low power sandblast from 'god'].[...]The desert is an endless open area. There are no walls outside of vaults, [...] To add to the 'endless' part. The desert cannot be mapped and doesn't have outer walls. Instead it's a Cartesian plane, (when you hit the upper wall you are warped to the bottom wall without noticing). It's also constantly shifting.

So... it's like the Abyss, but even more boring because there's nothing to look at, and with a weak version of hell effects?
Not exactly. The effect is actually more fatal is you don't have good AC. [Good here means 10+] Because it's more constant...also makes it virtually impossible for a non-heavily armoured Tengu to fly. [Similar damage to fire clouds while flying.] The idea is...you either need to swap to heavy armour and impede your casting, spamcast statue form or put on some good rings of protection to make it across. Unique additional challenge for mages and those that can't wear armour. Also prevents just perma-flying to avoid the other effects.

Though, yea the endlessness is kind of like the Abyss; though I do think...the lack of walls/easiness to get swarmed compared to ANYWHERE else and lack of preventing cBlink would make it...maybe not less annoying, but annoying in a different way.
nicolae wrote:
bcadren wrote:Quicksand is everywhere. This is land under permanent Liquefaction enchantment, which pulls you towards shafts.

Liquefaction doesn't move things, it just slows them.

Yea; I know what liquefaction does. Quicksand also pushes you in a vortex (like a damageless tornado); and pulls you towards its center (like mesmerization). I'd also talked with someone about the idea of having rivers push you (forced move like a tornado following a path). And random gusts of wind that push you along a determined path (exactly like a damageless tornado, but along a path through a floor instead of in a circle). [But that's neither here nor there (and devs said the latter (gusts of wind) was a bad idea because the player wouldn't be able to tell when they will be blown and where from a single screen very easily. (if you Ctrl-S and came back, you'd have to know where you'd be pushed and when for it to be a good feature.)]

Nicholae wrote:Also, why is it necessary to invent two or three complicated new types of terrain feature for each branch? Of the branches you intend on replacing (Hells, Crypt, Slime), only Slime has a unique terrain feature, and "don't stand next to it" is pretty straightforward.
Mostly; in order to be new and unique; not just 'area' with 'new monster type'. I feel like at this point new branches either need new terrain objects; unique effects around existing terrain objects (Shoals) or an abundance of terrain objects that are otherwise rare (forest tried this with trees). It's mostly because there's no room for...Crypt room-styled branch with {foo} enemy type instead. They at least need a unique terrain generation pattern (like Spider, Shoals, Swamp, Orc, etc.) to float being gameplay unique. Hell even vaults focuses heavily on doors now; which are less common and innocuous everywhere else.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 10:35

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

bcadren wrote:From a mechanics standpoint...New branch that is standalone and doesn't replace something seems off the table I wanted it to be similar difficulty so that was where it made sense de facto.

So why not just make a portal branch?

Concern is TSO and Zin in particular making too many things friendly and making the branch too much easier than intended.[/b] Having one rune branch you can opt. out of with a god is OK. Having two is...no.

Good gods don't turn holy beings friendly anymore.

Though, yea the endlessness is kind of like the Abyss; though I do think...the lack of walls/easiness to get swarmed compared to ANYWHERE else and lack of preventing cBlink would make it...maybe not less annoying, but annoying in a different way.

Maybe shoot for "not annoying at all". The fact that there are still annoying features that haven't been fixed doesn't mean there need to be more.
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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 10:38

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

nicolae wrote:
Though, yea the endlessness is kind of like the Abyss; though I do think...the lack of walls/easiness to get swarmed compared to ANYWHERE else and lack of preventing cBlink would make it...maybe not less annoying, but annoying in a different way.

Maybe shoot for "not annoying at all". The fact that there are still annoying features that haven't been fixed doesn't mean there need to be more.
The Abyss is annoying as hell...but I'd call that 'difficulty and good design at work' more than 'being annoying is bad; we need to 'fix' the abyss. Similarly I think these could be annoying in a fun way.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Thursday, 8th May 2014, 13:36

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

Last one sounds the most interesting conceptually. Almost reminds me a bit of Forest with a stronger theme and a bigger emphasis on terrain than monsters.
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 06:15

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

nicolae wrote:Good gods don't turn holy beings friendly anymore.


Was this recent? I ran into a Daeva in the abyss while worshiping Elyvilon about a month ago, and it was friendly.
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 06:58

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

Laraso wrote:
nicolae wrote:Good gods don't turn holy beings friendly anymore.


Was this recent? I ran into a Daeva in the abyss while worshiping Elyvilon about a month ago, and it was friendly.


Two weeks ago.
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 08:41

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

bcadren wrote:I think these could be annoying in a fun way.

There's at least one word in that sentence you apparently don't understand the meaning of.
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 09:07

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

Viashino_wizard wrote:There's at least one word in that sentence you apparently don't understand the meaning of.


Super Meat Boy...fun in an annoying way. I mean so goddamn frustrating you want to rip your eyes out instead of continuing to play...but addictive and fun.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 09:11

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

bcadren wrote:
Viashino_wizard wrote:There's at least one word in that sentence you apparently don't understand the meaning of.


Super Meat Boy...fun in an annoying way. I mean so goddamn frustrating you want to rip your eyes out instead of continuing to play...but addictive and fun.

You have the cart before the horse.
SMB isn't fun because it's annoying. It's annoying because it's fun (and you're driven to do better and increase your skill at the game).
That doesn't mean adding more annoyances would make it more fun, because the cause-effect arrow goes in the opposite direction.
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 09:38

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

Patashu wrote:You have the cart before the horse.
SMB isn't fun because it's annoying. It's annoying because it's fun (and you're driven to do better and increase your skill at the game).
That doesn't mean adding more annoyances would make it more fun, because the cause-effect arrow goes in the opposite direction.


I disagree completely. The annoyance is caused because the challenges presented are difficult and the difficulty/learning curve of the game is quite steep as well as the max skill needed to master it. If you removed the difficulty of the challenges of super meat boy, you end up with a relatively droll and formulaic platformer with no new mechanical additions to the genre.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 09:52

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

well if they still didn't implement dwarven halls
imo the only way to get some new branch made it's if you actually make a well balanced branch yourself and devs will like it
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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 10:14

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

bcadren wrote:
Patashu wrote:You have the cart before the horse.
SMB isn't fun because it's annoying. It's annoying because it's fun (and you're driven to do better and increase your skill at the game).
That doesn't mean adding more annoyances would make it more fun, because the cause-effect arrow goes in the opposite direction.


I disagree completely. The annoyance is caused because the challenges presented are difficult and the difficulty/learning curve of the game is quite steep as well as the max skill needed to master it. If you removed the difficulty of the challenges of super meat boy, you end up with a relatively droll and formulaic platformer with no new mechanical additions to the genre.

I find challenging games fun and unchallenging games unfun, so the challenge of smb == fun for me. It would be annoying if there were confounding elements that got in the way of honing skill, and there mostly isn't any of that.

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Post Friday, 9th May 2014, 18:17

Re: Few Simple Branch Seeds

If you like SMB you should try "N"
http://www.thewayoftheninja.org/n.html
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