Ogres (and Trolls) Poll


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Do you believe that Ogres and Trolls should have more advantages due to their size?

Yes
9
31%
No
20
69%
 
Total votes : 29
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 16:42

Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

This poll is meant to be a way to figure out whether or not others think that Ogres (and to a lesser degree, Trolls) need an adjustment to be more fun to play.

I think Trolls but especially Ogres should have more advantages due to their size. Those are the opposite of the disadvantages of smaller than average species, to counter their crappy Dex and dodging apt as well as the size penalty to EV and lack of options for early body armor.

To me this basically means they should not only be able to use shields at a lower skill with no penalty -as is the case at the moment- but also be able to wield all two handed weapons except for GC and GSC with a Shield. That would bring more variety to weapon choices, at least for Ogres. Ogres should be adjusted to have M&F +2, Axes 0, Long Blades -1, Polearms +1, imo. Makes much more sense. I don't have an opinion on the spell schools but feel free to tell me what yours is.

Trolls have that godly UC and I don't think there's much hope for them to get into weapons, tbh. They could get some sort of buff to their survival ability which peters out late game like ignore body armor encumbrance so that they receive no penalty to attack delay when using UC with the heaviest armors. After all it's not the Troll early game which is suffering currently, but the Ogre one.

Yes, they both have access to Large Rocks (and Sandblast). That doesn't mean that they magically stop being glass cannons. Despite their ridiculous HP levels. I know Ogres are playable at their current state, but I think many will agree that they feel like a total shot in the dark in terms of surviving the early and mid game, so being able to use a shield with a big damage weapon and not get shoehorned into M&F all the time due to not having any other decent choice seems like the way to go for me.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 890

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 17:09

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

It just seems off when a yak hits you and you're in the red...when you're some ten foot tall, thousand pound ogre.
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 216

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: TX

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 17:21

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

It is unfortunate that so many of the games played as Trolls and Ogres end up using the same playstyle of Unarmed and M&F respectively, but I don't see that as much of a problem. Not all races need to have flat aptitudes, and some specificity can make certain races more appealing or challenging to play in different ways. I personally think it's enjoyable to play a "primary caster" ogre that struggles with high spellpower but makes up for it with durability and ease of melee transition. I could certainly see the case for making weapon aptitudes on Ogre higher, but I would still end up using a GSC almost all of my games because it's a uniquely powerful weapon that makes Ogre special. As for trolls, you're right in saying that it's pretty obvious the choice for them will always be unarmed combat, barring some ridiculous early artifact find.

As for the supposed power level of the two races, I think they are both in a good spot right now and don't need much movement in either direction. Trolls have traditionally been called a race that is weak lategame, but in my experience that has never been the case. Besides being an unkillable god king on D:1-2, I think that trolls become even stronger late game because by then they will have found a set of dragon armor, fixing their main weakness of having poor AC. Giving them a racial reduction in armored unarmed penalty would be thematically appropriate I guess, but with their massive HP, Regeneration, and Claws, I don't see them as lacking in either the offense or defense department.

I used to share your opinions about Ogres: their lack of armour and intrinsic regeneration from trolls makes them piss-poor early game and they never quite catch up to the dungeon's perils due to their poor armor choices and inability to dodge. But now I know that is not the case. I may perhaps be mislead by my own experience with ogres as my most played race, but I do not think my initial assessment was correct. Due to their huge HP, they, like trolls, do not suffer the typical frustrations of being two-shotted by orc priest smite and have a much better chance of surviving highly dangerous attacks with the potential to instagib you like the infamous "corner ogre" or a stray fire bolt from Harold. They may have slight penalties to dodging, but if you dump some of your extra EXP into dodging, you can have an acceptable defense as early as lair. Their strength makes them able to dodge competently even in really heavy dragon armors, and their apt is only -1, which is pretty good! Because of their enormous fighting and M&F aptitudes they are indeed pidgeonholed into using their racial weapon, but like trolls, once they find a dragon armour or even a good enough robe their offense is so high that their slight penalty to defense is compensated for in their often underestimated HP pool. That said, if most people think they are a challenge race, they certainly have the right to be one and I don't see much of a problem having a few of those around as long as the more balanced options with flat aptitudes already exist.

If anything, I think the out-of-combat regeneration of Ogres needs buffing. I don't like using the rest to full option in my rc because I don't always want to rest to full, and they are the only race that I tangibly lose god piety with just by 5-ing because they have so much health to regenerate.
take it easy

For this message the author Cheibrodos has received thanks: 3
archaeo, DracheReborn, pseudopseudonymous
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:00

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

From a practical standpoint; the easiest comparison is to say that Ogres are nerfed Minotaurs. In magic they almost match (Ogres are actually good with spells, but the apts either match or are only ∓ 1 of each other). Instead of +2 in fighting and all weapons, Ogres get +3 Fighting and +3 maces and horrible in all else. This defacto plays the same, except lowered weapon choice for Ogres; especially since the Minotaurs then turn around and have good armour, dodging and shields; things that Ogres are slightly below average at. De facto the major difference is...if an Ogre wants a ranged option; he focuses a spellschool to try to get enough spellpower for a good conjuration. If a minotaur wants a ranged option, he picks up a bow.

  Code:
Mi: Fighting: 2, Short: 1, Long: 2!, Axes: 2, Maces: 2, Polearms: 2, Staves: 2!, Slings: 1, Bows: 1, Xbows: 1, Throw: 0, Armour: 2!, Dodge: 1, Stealth: -1, Shields: 2!, UC: 1!, Splcast: -4, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -4*, Charms: -4*, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -2, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -2, Poison: -3*, Inv: 0, Evo: 0, Exp: -1, HP: 1, MP: -2


  Code:
Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -4*, Long: -3*, Axes: -3*, Maces: 3!, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -3, Charms: -3, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3, Air: -3, Earth: -3*, Poison: -3*, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 172

Joined: Thursday, 1st September 2011, 00:21

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:00

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I do not think Trolls need any buffs.

Ogres, maybe. I do find Ogres awfully fragile, and don't play them that much. But this is also because they don't seem very interesting to me. GC/GSC is their thing, and it has been kinda fun on sprints, but not enough to carry the race. I think they need a uniqueness buff as much as a power buff.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:13

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I'll play a lot of Ogres in the next days to see whether I'll keep feeling the same about them.

The problem is you need a heavy dragon armour early on, since the early game is the hardest part of the game -assuming you're not going the spellcasting route. And to be honest, finding and using fire/ice dragon hide/armour with no source of rC+/rF+ seems as suicidal to me as going Lair with a robe. Troll armour is too weak to want to equip on such a low EV race.

But as I said already, I'll play some more Ogres and see if that changes my view. I'll mostly go for OgBe and OgGl, I think. I know OgAM is cool but I'm not a big fan of the background.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1337

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2012, 02:28

Location: Limbo

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:23

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

TehDruid wrote:Troll armour is too weak to want to equip on such a low EV race.

It's better than, I dunno - a robe?
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.
User avatar

Zot Zealot

Posts: 937

Joined: Monday, 15th April 2013, 15:10

Location: Augsburg, Germany

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:32

A general thought about these two species:

A really nice thing is that Tr and Og usually get their endgame weapon very early. Trolls start with claws, they will fight with these "weapons" all the time. Ogres, should they survive the early game, have very fast access to GSC and will very often keep it in the whole game.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:32

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Bloax wrote:
TehDruid wrote:Troll armour is too weak to want to equip on such a low EV race.

It's better than, I dunno - a robe?

Well, duh, it is... The regen is a nice touch, too.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:34

Re:

Turukano wrote:A general thought about these two species:

A really nice thing is that Tr and Og usually get their endgame weapon very early. Trolls start with claws, they will fight with these "weapons" all the time. Ogres, should they survive the early game, have very fast access to GSC and will very often keep it in the whole game.


I'll give you that, and I don't forget that Trog likes to gift GC and GSC artifacts all the time to Ogres.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 216

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: TX

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:39

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

TehDruid wrote:I'll play a lot of Ogres in the next days to see whether I'll keep feeling the same about them.

The problem is you need a heavy dragon armour early on, since the early game is the hardest part of the game -assuming you're not going the spellcasting route. And to be honest, finding and using fire/ice dragon hide/armour with no source of rC+/rF+ seems as suicidal to me as going Lair with a robe. Troll armour is too weak to want to equip on such a low EV race.

But as I said already, I'll play some more Ogres and see if that changes my view. I'll mostly go for OgBe and OgGl, I think. I know OgAM is cool but I'm not a big fan of the background.


Any non-robe armor is a huge benefit to Og/Tr, and will increase their survivability substantially enough though the lategame. On an ogre with no conjurations, I've made it through the lair branches and most of vaults before with just a robe before it got too pressured so it really isn't that terrible to rely on your HP and dodging. Doing lair with a robe is not suicidal at all as long as you have been properly skilling your ogre and don't fight blink frog swarms and hydras head-on. Your club will do so much damage you 1-2 shot most threats, and I'd say your only big risk is black mambas if you get some unlucky misses. By the time you reach that point in the game where a robe becomes too difficult for comfort, not having some sort of hide to enchant is very unlikely.
take it easy
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 18:42

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

@ Cheibrodos: Deep down inside I know you're right, it's not that Ogres are terrible, I just tend to neglect dodging entirely on them, thinking it's a lost cause. I'll try to go against that instinct of mine.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Cocytus Succeeder

Posts: 2184

Joined: Sunday, 18th December 2011, 13:31

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 19:17

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Dodging with ogre is far from being a lost cause. You need to train more initially to see some benefits because you have to offset the base malus they have for being large and you need to raise dex on level up because they have crappy base eg.

Moreover, training dodging exponentially raise your chance to survive mid game, because there's no guarantee to get a dragon armour in lair, and fighting with 20ish ev instead of 10 is a big difference.

E. G. http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/na ... 220915.txt
or
http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.11/na ... 220915.txt (15 ev in gda means a lot with lighter armour)
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

For this message the author nago has received thanks:
Sar

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:23

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I agree with what seems to be a common statement of "Trolls are fine, Ogres need tweaking." I don't think the ogre issue is that they are too weak per se, but that they are not fulfilling the fantasy of playing as an ogre.
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 890

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:25

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Just had a level 6 Ogre Berserker die to Grinder. Trog's hand + berserk = still lose.
I can have a level 2-3 Minotaur drop Grinder easily.
Change their name to 'Large Fairy' and we're all good.

Barkeep

Posts: 3890

Joined: Wednesday, 14th August 2013, 23:25

Location: USA

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:30

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

bcadren wrote:De facto the major difference is...if an Ogre wants a ranged option; he focuses a spellschool to try to get enough spellpower for a good conjuration. If a minotaur wants a ranged option, he picks up a bow.


One of the biggest advantages that Trolls and Ogres get that is specifically due to their large size is that they can throw large rocks, which do good ranged damage with very minimal skill investment.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 830

Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:32

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

TeshiAlair wrote:I agree with what seems to be a common statement of "Trolls are fine, Ogres need tweaking." I don't think the ogre issue is that they are too weak per se, but that they are not fulfilling the fantasy of playing as an ogre.


Ok, now I'm curious. Which part of OGRE SMASH doesn't fulfill everyone's fantasy of playing as an ogre?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6181

Joined: Tuesday, 30th October 2012, 19:06

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:33

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

The part where you prick them with a pin and they deflate like a party balloon? :)
Spoiler: show
This high quality signature has been hidden for your protection. To unlock it's secret, send 3 easy payments of $9.99 to me, by way of your nearest theta band or ley line. Complete your transmission by midnight tonight for a special free gift!

For this message the author Siegurt has received thanks: 2
bcadren, damiac

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 830

Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 20:41

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Hey, it's a well known trope that large creatures are vulnerable to smaller enemies. See David & Goliath, Jack the Giant killer, elephants and mice, etc
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 23:28

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

IMHO player ogres play exactly like monster ogres do. No change required, they're perfect.

For this message the author Patashu has received thanks:
Sar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Monday, 5th May 2014, 23:51

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

The main item on my wishlist for ogres is to do something about their food clock. It's exactly the same as everybody else's food clock, but slightly more annoying. You can't even say it's harder, because they can hold a chunk longer without eating it, so the difference is purely added annoyance.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks: 4
and into, duvessa, Firion, Viashino_wizard

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 01:10

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Patashu wrote:IMHO player ogres play exactly like monster ogres do. No change required, they're perfect.


So playing like one of the most boring monsters in the game is perfect?
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 01:58

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

TeshiAlair wrote:
Patashu wrote:IMHO player ogres play exactly like monster ogres do. No change required, they're perfect.


So playing like one of the most boring monsters in the game is perfect?

So what, we should remove monster ogres now because they're too boring to Crawl players?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 02:39

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Guide "How to make crawl species perfect":
1) Remove the most boring species because it is BORING.
2) Go to step 1.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 04:10

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Feature request: online forum software automatically adds a "this poll is stupid" option to every user-created poll.
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 890

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 11:21

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Sandman25 wrote:Guide "How to make crawl species perfect":
1) Remove the most boring species because it is BORING.
2) Go to step 1.


I don't think they are boring. I mean, they get GSC and large rocks, which is about as fun as it gets for standard whack'n'throw games.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 11:30

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I wasn't clear enough. I actually don't think player Ogres are boring at all- there's some good tension with them. But, the tension is in ways that feel non-Ogre-y, which is how I feel about ogre monsters.
Honestly, I think the only tweak that I would make for player ogres is +3 more innate AC and slow healing 1. This way, you feel less glassy, but your low EV still hurts, and it further differentiates from trolls.
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 890

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 13:00

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Tough skin merry go round?
Centaur: Tough Skin 3 -> Tough Skin 1. He can wear all armor and run at blazing speed anyways.
Ogre: Tough Skin 1 -> Tough Skin 3. Needs it badly.

Makes sense for both flavor and balance.

For this message the author Klown has received thanks: 2
bcadren, TeshiAlair

Sar

User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 6418

Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 14:31

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

TeshiAlair wrote:So playing like one of the most boring monsters in the game is perfect?

I don't find ogres boring, they deal potentially tremendous damage by the time you start meeting them but have multiple vulnerabilities you can exploit.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1217

Joined: Sunday, 14th April 2013, 04:01

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 16:42

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Right, but in practice that means they are one of the worst offenders of "flip a coin. I died" early game if you don't have an escape, and trivial if you do have any form of escape, which you generally will by the time you see one.
Three wins: Gargoyle Earth Elementalist of Ash, Ogre Fighter of Ru, Deep Dwarf Fighter of Makhleb (0.16 bugbuild :( )

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 143

Joined: Friday, 15th March 2013, 23:33

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 18:00

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

The early vulnerability of ogres is cool and distinguishing in my opinion. I mean, sorry it's not what you expected but you have the zero-thought-required large tabtab race in trolls. You do eventually get to be a total brick wall killing machine - you just have to wait for the armor - and even by Lair you can do pretty well on HP alone. 3 AC isn't so unreasonable though, I suppose. Slow healing is a terrible idea on Og especially because their most annoying feature right now is hunger.

Think about monster ogres from the perspective of a new player - they're one of the first things that you may be totally unable to fight by your normal method, but are vulnerable to a lot of alternate approaches. Early single ogres introduce the player to the idea of stopping and pressing 'i,' to thinking about turns (of course the slow attack vulnerability *is* arguably problematic once you know about it) and so on. Later on ogre packs are just a vehicle for Ogre Magi, which are a great and truly scary monster, opinions about the details of banishment aside.
User avatar

Eringya's Employee

Posts: 1782

Joined: Friday, 7th October 2011, 19:24

Location: Athens, Greece

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 18:27

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Give ogres a regen buff every time they eat a chunk of flesh.
MuCK;
  Code:
612 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Xom revived you
614 | D:1      | Slain by a gnoll

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5295

Joined: Friday, 25th November 2011, 07:36

Post Tuesday, 6th May 2014, 18:52

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I wouldn't mind something that gave them slightly more defense, something like tough skin 3 which has been mentioned, or maybe something like the reverse of a deformed body mutation - your large body gets additional AC from using armor large enough to fit you (robe would only be +1 ac, but FDA would be +4, not bad). Tough skin 3 is probably a lot easier to modify though, and has the advantage of taking (full) effect on D:1.

This could apply to only ogres, trolls are probably fine. And ogres only need it if you don't want ogres to be below average power. They're somewhat weaker than most, but they aren't in the worst 3-5 races either. Some races have to be below average no matter what you do, after all.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 02:05

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

wtf is all this stuff about ogres being weak early

you have more HP than any other species in the game (remember fighting apt + exp apt), a +3 weapon aptitude, and normal AC. this does not seem "weak early" to me

i mean it is similarly egregiously wrong to say ogres are below average in any other part of the game, but at least i can kind of see why an inexperienced player MIGHT get that impression since their defenses are eventually bad and they have a -3 aptitude in one or two relevant skills. early in the game this is not the case...

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 02:15

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

duvessa is so good at this game that every species is above the median

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks: 2
Arrhythmia, Klown

Halls Hopper

Posts: 76

Joined: Wednesday, 5th March 2014, 21:07

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 02:36

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

KoboldLord wrote:duvessa is so good at this game that every species is above the median

You have a strange way of disagreeing.

In any case, I also thing Og is pretty strong; big HP and big mace apt and big common maces is nice.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 03:32

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

KoboldLord wrote:duvessa is so good at this game that every species is above the median
Feel free to share a list of 13 species that are better than ogres.
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 03:47

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Species better than Ogres (from my experience):
Minotaur, Troll, Mummy, High Elf, Deep Elf, Human, Octopode, Hill Orc, Spriggan, Centaur, Merfolk, Tengu, Draconian, Gargoyle, Vine Stalker, Demonspawn, Vampire, Kobold, Deep Dwarf (Makhleb/Elyvilon), Halfling (20)

Species Worse that Ogres:
Felid, Deep Dwarf (no god/other god) (2)

Species questionably better or worse:
Demigod, Formacid, Ghoul, Naga. (4)
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
User avatar

Pandemonium Purger

Posts: 1298

Joined: Wednesday, 11th April 2012, 02:42

Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 03:56

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

bcadren wrote:Species better than Ogres (from my experience):
Minotaur, Troll, Mummy, High Elf, Deep Elf, Human, Octopode, Hill Orc, Spriggan, Centaur, Merfolk, Tengu, Draconian, Gargoyle, Vine Stalker, Demonspawn, Vampire, Kobold, Deep Dwarf (Makhleb/Elyvilon), Halfling (20)

Species Worse that Ogres:
Felid, Deep Dwarf (no god/other god) (2)

Species questionably better or worse:
Demigod, Formacid, Ghoul, Naga. (4)

Mummy, Tengu and Octopode above Ogre?

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 04:18

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

I was actually asking KoboldLord. That was the intent behind quoting his post.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 04:23

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Wearing +N plate instead of a +N robe is roughly equivalent to getting an average of 4hp healing every time a monster hits you with anything. Take that down to 3.5hp on account of Tough Skin. +30%hp is very nice indeed, but there are a huge amount of times in the game where you do have to deal with some trash. Calling ogres fragile is actually a perfectly reasonable position to take. Every last lousy green rat or vanilla unarmed orc is suddenly a relevant tactical consideration, because their contribution is no longer zero. If you can handle this extra tactical complication, that just means you are good at the game, not that the extra challenge doesn't actually exist.

For this message the author KoboldLord has received thanks:
Klown
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 04:30

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Patashu wrote:Mummy, Tengu and Octopode above Ogre?
Mummy; because it can wear normal equipment and therefore get good AC earlier. Also MuNe, and MuIE get good spellpower significantly faster than Ogre equivalent.
Though foodless spellcasting isn't a big deal High Metabolism spellcasting is a pretty fair handicap; limiting uses per fight and you'd really see the consequences if you switched between say MuIE and OgIE.
REALLY don't underestimate how much of a handicap lack of normal armor is for a meleeist; unless you are lucky and get early dragons.

Octopodes, because I can't honest place them far from humans. Apts are mostly even with humans (Stealth and Poison are the exceptions) with the primary difference being using rings instead of armour AND a significant melee boost (constriction). There are periods where they could be weaker (if you can't find rings; which is reasonable); but for the most part it's pretty even. You can even get better AC than an armoured character with no EVP if you like (multiple Protection rings). Transmuter Octopodes even keep their rings in Spider Form making the low level spell a lot better.

Tengu honestly aren't that different than elves, great Conj, good MP, semi-low HP. Innate EV boost (perma-flight), unlike Elves, they have good UC too. Te(Mo/Wz/FE/AE)^Vehumet is probably one of the strongest builds. Even TeFi have a good EV compared to other meleeists (even enough to make up for the HP problem). You just have to play to (at least one of) their strengths (Flying in every battle for the good EV boost or using Conjurations heavily) and you'll have a character significantly above human power.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 05:19

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

KoboldLord wrote:Calling ogres fragile is actually a perfectly reasonable position to take.
Yes, which is why I didn't object to calling them fragile, I objected to calling them weak!
User avatar

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 319

Joined: Tuesday, 7th January 2014, 06:09

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 06:25

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

bcadren wrote:
Patashu wrote:Mummy, Tengu and Octopode above Ogre?
Mummy; because it can wear normal equipment and therefore get good AC earlier. Also MuNe, and MuIE get good spellpower significantly faster than Ogre equivalent.
Though foodless spellcasting isn't a big deal High Metabolism spellcasting is a pretty fair handicap; limiting uses per fight and you'd really see the consequences if you switched between say MuIE and OgIE.
REALLY don't underestimate how much of a handicap lack of normal armor is for a meleeist; unless you are lucky and get early dragons.

1. Mummies being unable to quaff potions is a much bigger drawback than Ogres being limited to robes and hides, especially when ogres have 130% HP while mummies get rF-

2. OgHu gets min delay on M&F significantly faster than Mummy equivalent.

3. Necromancy doesn't even need high spellpower to be effective. Having more spellpower for Pain is a lot less useful than being able to use giant clubs on Necromancy-proof enemies.

4. Hunger costs are completely irrelevant unless you're taking an extended trip in Tomb or Slime.

5. REALLY don't underestimate how useful 30% extra HP, reliable access to GC/GSC and not having a -1 EXP aptitude or vulnerability to the most common elemental damage type is.

bcadren wrote:Octopodes, because I can't honest place them far from humans. Apts are mostly even with humans (Stealth and Poison are the exceptions) with the primary difference being using rings instead of armour AND a significant melee boost (constriction). There are periods where they could be weaker (if you can't find rings; which is reasonable); but for the most part it's pretty even. You can even get better AC than an armoured character with no EVP if you like (multiple Protection rings). Transmuter Octopodes even keep their rings in Spider Form making the low level spell a lot better.

You can realistically go an entire game without finding any rings of protection. Meanwhile, you have even worse AC than an Ogre, but instead of 30% extra HP you have -10% and can't wear a cloak or upgrade to Troll/Dragon hide armor.
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 07:10

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Viashino_wizard wrote:1. Mummies being unable to quaff potions is a much bigger drawback than Ogres being limited to robes and hides, especially when ogres have 130% HP while mummies get rF-

2. OgHu gets min delay on M&F significantly faster than Mummy equivalent.

3. Necromancy doesn't even need high spellpower to be effective. Having more spellpower for Pain is a lot less useful than being able to use giant clubs on Necromancy-proof enemies.

4. Hunger costs are completely irrelevant unless you're taking an extended trip in Tomb or Slime.

5. REALLY don't underestimate how useful 30% extra HP, reliable access to GC/GSC and not having a -1 EXP aptitude or vulnerability to the most common elemental damage type is.


Won a MuCK, I can just silence you now, please thanks. JKJK.

Yes; needing to stop in the middle of a fight to eat in order to not starve to death is a horrible weakness that is brought on by bad spell school apts and fast metabolism and any spellcasting at all. It's relevant in every single fight of any length unless you have Gourmand. I literally just did starve to death in a battle against a Kobold vault (15ish kobolds, 5ish big kobolds) as a OgIE trying to keep Ozo's Armour and Condensation Shield up.

Getting Simulacrum up in a hurry is more important than anything else...though yes, spellpower on Necromancy doesn't matter much...

I'm tired of people writing off the possibility of starting a fight at normal hunger and starving to death or needing to eat a chunk (waste four turns) in the middle because of hunger costs; it comes up way more often than actually running out of food.

rPois+ more than makes up for rF- :D

Though yes +30% HP is not an advantage when your AC is low enough to take more dam/hit anyways.

Also it seems like going to an end game weapon early is a fallacy that only Ogres fall into. The high delay and low accuracy can be like trying to killdudes with just Bolt of Inaccuracy at low skill. Good dam if you hit, but likely to die if you keep missing as you usually take a hit while in the middle of swinging the weapon.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8653

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 07:41

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Hi Viashino_wizard, I see that someone has tricked you into thinking that bcadren plays crawl.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks:
Viashino_wizard
User avatar

Spider Stomper

Posts: 216

Joined: Monday, 1st April 2013, 04:41

Location: TX

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 08:43

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

bcadren wrote:Yes; needing to stop in the middle of a fight to eat in order to not starve to death is a horrible weakness that is brought on by bad spell school apts and fast metabolism and any spellcasting at all. It's relevant in every single fight of any length unless you have Gourmand...

I'm tired of people writing off the possibility of starting a fight at normal hunger and starving to death or needing to eat a chunk (waste four turns) in the middle because of hunger costs; it comes up way more often than actually running out of food...

Though yes +30% HP is not an advantage when your AC is low enough to take more dam/hit anyways...


I'm really frightened at the direction your posts have taken, bcadren. I don't know what is going on in the games you are playing, but I just ascended an Ogre spellcaster that only ate in combat once the entire game because of a hungry ghost.
take it easy

For this message the author Cheibrodos has received thanks:
Arrhythmia
User avatar

Dis Charger

Posts: 2056

Joined: Wednesday, 7th August 2013, 08:25

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 08:48

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Cheibrodos wrote:I'm really frightened at the direction your posts have taken, bcadren. I don't know what is going on in the games you are playing, but I just ascended an Ogre spellcaster that only ate in combat once the entire game because of a hungry ghost.


  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.14.0 (tiles) character file.

2205 Big Freeze the Skirmisher (level 9, 34/89 HPs)
             Began as an Ogre Ice Elementalist on May 6, 2014.
             Starved to death
             ... on Level 7 of the Dungeon.
             The game lasted 00:21:14 (6756 turns).

Big Freeze the Skirmisher (Ogre Ice Elementalist)   Turns: 6756, Time: 00:21:14

HP  34/89        AC  7     Str 15      XL: 9   Next: 14%
MP  12/17        EV 11     Int 17      God:
Gold 329         SH  0     Dex 10      Spells:  3 memorised,  6 levels left

rFire  + . .     SeeInvis .     v - +0 giant club
rCold  . . .     Clarity  .     a - +1 robe
rNeg   . . .     Conserve .     (shield restricted)
rPois  .         rCorr    .     (helmet restricted)
rElec  .         rRot     .     u - +2 cloak
SustAb . .       Spirit   +     (gloves unavailable)
rMut   .         Warding  .     (boots unavailable)
Saprov + . .     Stasis   .     F - amulet of guardian spirit
MR     .....                    z - ring of protection from fire
                                m - ring of invisibility

@: not resistant to hostile enchantments, unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, fast metabolism 1, saprovore 1, tough skin 1
a: Evoke Invisibility


You were on level 7 of the Dungeon.
You were starving.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 8 of its levels.
You also visited: Sewer.

You collected 424 gold pieces.
You spent 95 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 p - the +6,+6 crossbow "Hellfire" {hellfire, rF++ rC- MR+}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
   It makes you vulnerable to cold.
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
 t - a +0 blowgun
 v - a +0,+0 giant club (weapon)
 O - a +2,+1 flail of holy wrath
Missiles
 f - a large rock (quivered)
 k - 2 curare-tipped needles
 r - 20 poisoned needles
 P - 3 tomahawks
Armour
 a - a +1 robe (worn)
 u - a +2 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 B - a wand of teleportation (5) {unknown}
 I - a wand of paralysis (7) {unknown}
 J - a wand of disintegration (16) {unknown}
Comestibles
 c - 3 meat rations
 i - an apple
 n - a pear
 o - 4 chokos
 L - 2 bread rations
Scrolls
 y - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 A - 4 scrolls of fog {unknown}
 C - 2 scrolls of amnesia
 D - a scroll of enchant armour
 G - a scroll of recharging
 M - a scroll of random uselessness {unknown}
Jewellery
 m - a ring of invisibility (left hand)
 z - a ring of protection from fire (right hand)
 F - an amulet of guardian spirit (around neck)
 K - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion {unknown}
 N - an uncursed ring of poison resistance {unknown}
Potions
 d - 2 potions of might
 e - 2 potions of magic {unknown}
 g - a potion of paralysis {unknown}
 h - a potion of berserk rage {unknown}
 j - a potion of haste
 q - 2 potions of restore abilities {unknown}
 s - a potion of lignification {unknown}
 w - a potion of agility
 x - a potion of flight {unknown}
 E - a potion of curing
 H - a potion of invisibility
Books
 b - a book of Frost   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   *Freeze                            Ice                          1
   Throw Frost                        Conjuration/Ice              2
   *Ozocubu's Armour                  Charms/Ice                   3
   Throw Icicle                       Conjuration/Ice              4
   Summon Ice Beast                   Ice/Summoning                4
   *Condensation Shield               Ice                          4


   Skills:
 + Level 5.6 Fighting
 + Level 4.4 Maces & Flails
 - Level 3.0 Throwing
 + Level 4.7 Dodging
 - Level 1.5 Stealth
 - Level 3.0 Spellcasting
   Level 0.6 Conjurations
 * Level 5.6 Ice Magic
 + Level 3.7 Evocations


You had 6 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Freeze                Ice            ###.         1%          1    None
b - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ##........   17%         3    ###....
c - Condensation Shield   Ice            ###.......   21%         4    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (7/15)             Temple (1/1) D:6         

Altars:
Cheibriados
Dithmenos
Fedhas
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:4 ?   D:7 *

Annotations:
D:3 Grinder


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have a fast metabolism.
You can tolerate rotten meat.
You have tough skin (AC +1).


Message History

You bludgeon the kobold!!
You kill the kobold!
The big kobold hits you with a short sword.
Items here: %%%%%%% ((( )))))))))))))))))))
You barely miss the big kobold. The big kobold barely misses you.
You barely miss the big kobold.
The big kobold hits you with a short sword.
The big kobold barely misses you.
You thump the big kobold!
The big kobold is heavily wounded.
The big kobold closely misses you.
You hit the big kobold but do no damage.
The big kobold is heavily wounded.
The big kobold hits you but does no damage.
The big kobold barely misses you.
You miss the big kobold.
The big kobold is heavily wounded.
The big kobold completely misses you.
You have starved to death.
You die...

      KK.            .
    ###%.            .#
   ##...#            .#
   #...(#          ##.
   #....#          #..
   #...(#          #.#
   #....#    #######.#######
   #...K+   .........(......
   #....#    ######.(#######
   #....#        ##.##
   ##%###        #.)#      #
    #.K#         #.##      #
    ##@#         #.#       #
     #(#      ####'###     #
     #%#    ###......#    ##
######'######.+......#    #.
#...........#.#......+    #.
#...........#.#......#    #.
#...........'.#......#    #.
#...........###......#    #.
#...........# #......#  #...
#...........# #......#  ###.
#...........# #......#    ##
#####....#### ##'#####
#####%#######  #..###


You could see a big kobold.

Vanquished Creatures
  Edmund (D:7)
  2 ogres
  2 centaurs
  9 big kobolds (D:7)
  A giant frog (D:7)
  A scorpion (D:7)
  3 wights (D:6)
  A hound (D:4)
  A black bear zombie (D:6)
  A crimson imp (D:7)
  2 jellies (D:6)
  3 iguanas
  Ijyb (D:3)
  Jessica (D:2)
  Terence (D:3)
  10 adders
  An orc skeleton (D:7)
  3 gnolls (D:4)
  An inept feature mimic (D:5)
  2 giant mites (D:3)
  A goliath beetle zombie (D:5)
  4 worms
  An ooze (D:1)
  10 orcs
  A bat skeleton (D:3)
  9 giant cockroaches
  13 goblins
  9 hobgoblins
  8 jackals
  28 kobolds
  34 ball pythons
  10 bats
  4 giant geckos
  2 giant newts
  A gnoll skeleton (D:4)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:7)
  A kobold zombie (D:5)
  4 quokkas
  7 rats
  A plant (D:5)
196 creatures vanquished.

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Big Freeze, the Ogre Ice Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 16/16 MP: 3/3
   153 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/26 MP: 3/5
   299 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
   764 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 19/33 MP: 6/6
  1358 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
  1653 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  1660 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  1666 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 39/42 MP: 4/8
  1674 | D:2      | Learned a level 4 spell: Condensation Shield
  2035 | D:3      | Reached skill level 3 in Ice Magic
  2150 | D:3      | Noticed Ijyb
  2181 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
  2194 | D:3      | Killed Ijyb
  2194 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 30/50 MP: 0/11
  2345 | D:3      | Noticed Terence
  2362 | D:3      | Killed Terence
  2782 | D:3      | Noticed Grinder
  2782 | D:3      | Paralysed by Grinder for 2 turns
  2790 | D:3      | Paralysed by something for 5 turns
  3010 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of identify for 20 gold pieces
  3010 | D:4      | Bought a scroll of blinking for 75 gold pieces
  3249 | D:4      | Found a glowing drain.
  3254 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  3320 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 21/59 MP: 3/12
  3412 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  3412 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
  3434 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  4267 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic
  4591 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4685 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
  4685 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 54/67 MP: 14/14
  4727 | D:5      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4729 | D:5      | the staircase to the Ecumenical Temple was a mimic.
  4834 | D:5      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  5388 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5433 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5996 | D:7      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 52/78 MP: 0/16
  6137 | D:7      | Noticed Edmund
  6168 | D:7      | Killed Edmund
  6383 | D:7      | Found Gyokkom's Elemental Accessories.
  6610 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  6634 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  6656 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 48/88 MP: 3/17
  6756 | D:7      | Starved to death


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    36 |       |       ||    36
       Whip              |    80 |   140 |       ||   220
       Club              |    10 |       |       ||    10
       Giant club        |       |   165 |   312 ||   477
Throw: Large rock        |       |     5 |    10 ||    15
 Cast: Freeze            |    21 |    61 |    10 ||    92
       Ozocubu's Armour  |       |     9 |     9 ||    18
       Condensation Shie |       |     3 |     5 ||     8
 Abil: Evoke Invisibilit |       |     1 |       ||     1
  Use: Scroll            |       |    11 |     4 ||    15
       Potion            |       |     4 |     1 ||     5
 Stab: Sleeping          |       |     2 |       ||     2


Here's that death. Most recent Ogre death. :( Started a battle with a vault full of kobolds at full hunger...starved to death in the middle. Didn't realize it had gotten that bad until too late.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

For this message the author bcadren has received thanks:
Klown
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 890

Joined: Saturday, 15th June 2013, 23:54

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 11:49

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

It's rare to go all the way to starving without finding food or corpses to eat(at least, that early), but it's happened to me a couple times in the past(not ogres, but same death).

Dis Charger

Posts: 2057

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Wednesday, 7th May 2014, 13:11

Re: Ogres (and Trolls) Poll

Klown wrote:It's rare to go all the way to starving without finding food or corpses to eat(at least, that early), but it's happened to me a couple times in the past(not ogres, but same death).

That isn't the case here, look again.

This death was about spamming big spells in a combat, not watching game messages and dying because of spell hunger.

I am still unsure, however, what this is supposed to prove.
Next

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.