Remove Trog

[bcadren]

Yes. I'm dead serious. I'm all for conducts and the like; but Trog's is so extreme that if you've played one berserker, you've played practically every berserker (save the edge cases like OpBe and FeBe). Choosing a berserker start or going to a Trog altar removes all the variety from the game and makes it so only five skills really matter...cutting out literally all spellcasting for Berserk on tap; Regen+/MR+ and Berserk Summons. All effects, which you could have gotten elsewhere (though the spell Regen, isn't as strong, I know.) Preventing stabs (TSO); slowing you (Chei) are all less extreme of things than cutting out all magic. I'm not saying that no magic is a death sentence; it's not Be is one of the most won classes. It's not really the easiest; it's just the simplest and most fool proof and I feel that using it takes too much out of the game.I'd like to see it gone. The less extreme Okawaru can keep the place as the melee god. Trog is just by far the edge case extreme god and it's too much to exist.

EDIT: Or at least, remove the Be start. Making a choice to have no magic should be something you do at the temple if you are going to do it; not something you do before you start.

[Siegurt]

I disagree.

[tasonir]

I also disagree. I'd just like to add that the regen spell is far, far stronger than trog's hand because it doesn't cost piety. If trog's hand didn't cost piety it would be stronger for the 70 mr, of course, but it does.

[Tedronai]

All gods should be removed!

[Sandman25]

I am not sure why there is so much desire to change (read "remove") crawl content lately. If you feel Be is OP, don't play it, there are many new players who are still trying to get their first win and Be is a great help here.
If you feel Ko and Ha are not different enough, don't use them (or use any).
The same for DE/HE.
If you feel Dg is too weak/boring, don't use it.
This is not a game for one player, there are other players who might enjoy content which you are trying to remove.
Too bad I couldn't win with Tm when SE was available, the same for Dj, Pr...

[Siegurt]

You could always download the old version compile it and play it offline (Or heck some servers have builds all the way back to .10)

[Sandman25]

You could always download the old version compile it and play it offline (Or heck some servers have builds all the way back to .10)

I tried to find version 0.4 (I've been told it had kiting Centaurs) but failed. Thank you, maybe I will win with SE some day

[WalkerBoh]

There are so many things wrong in your post that it's not even worth going through them. I will just say that if you think Oka is a better designed and more fun god than Trog, then I question if we're even playing the same game...

[NessOnett]

I disagree.

Wow, that is an extremely detailed, in-depth, well thought out, point by point response. It clearly addresses all the issues, and leaves no stone unturned.

[DracheReborn]

I am not sure why there is so much desire to change (read "remove") crawl content lately. If you feel Be is OP, don't play it, there are many new players who are still trying to get their first win and Be is a great help here.
If you feel Ko and Ha are not different enough, don't use them (or use any).
The same for DE/HE.
If you feel Dg is too weak/boring, don't use it.
This is not a game for one player, there are other players who might enjoy content which you are trying to remove.
Too bad I couldn't win with Tm when SE was available, the same for Dj, Pr...

I agree to a point. Species are basically parallel paths - in any single game you're playing just one species, so how many more are in the game doesn't affect. This is somewhat less true for gods, since you can switch, but it applies somewhat too.

The problem to me is that for a newcomer, crawl looks pretty intimidating. Remember the first time you had to pick a species, and there were 20+ choices on the screen? That could be offputting. Maybe it would be better if the game presents a new player with a choice of, say, just 3 species and 5 backgrounds and maybe 5 gods in temple, with more being "unlocked" the farther you go.

Of course, there should be an option to unlock everything for spoiled players. But a system like this seems like a reasonable way to manage complexity for new players while maintaining expandable content for experienced ones.

[Leafsnail]

I think it's good to have a simple class/god for newer players to get into the game with. Trog is probably too strong right now though.

[DracheReborn]

I disagree.

Wow, that is an extremely detailed, in-depth, well thought out, point by point response. It clearly addresses all the issues, and leaves no stone unturned.

To be fair, it's not like the proposal is well thought out.

Well if you want a rebuttal:

1. Something like MiBe plays very differently from KoBe, so not all berserkers play the same.
2. Skilling is not the entirety of the game. True you can just autoskill most berserkers, but you still need to play with good tactics. In fact this is why Be is the suggested newbie start - a new player can just focus on learning tactics which is the important part anyway.
3. I think most people do consider Be the easiest start. Trog is very strong.
4. Oka isn't even the best heavy melee god after Trog. If you're a heavy armour melee dude, Fedhas, Makhleb, and Yred are probably all better.
5. Be start isn't going anywhere, IMO. It's there basically as easy mode. You don't have to choose it, of course.

[Siegurt]

I disagree.

Wow, that is an extremely detailed, in-depth, well thought out, point by point response. It clearly addresses all the issues, and leaves no stone unturned.

It doesn't need to be in-depth. Bcadren made a bunch of statements of his opinion, and how this opinion influences his reasoning behind this post. I disagree (with each premise individually, actually, as well as the conclusion he draws from them)

Since these are are statements of opinion rather than fact, I can simply state that I disagree, and thereby state that I have a different opinion than him. I don't need to try to tear down a logical construct, or point out incorrect conclusions or statements laid on an unfactual foundation.

If someone said "Purple is the best color, therefore everything that is not purple should be made purple" I could similarly say "I disagree" and that would encompass all that needed to be said on the subject.

I could, if it would somehow make it clearer, break Bcadren's post down into sentences and write "I disagree with that" after each one, however I don't think that increases clarity or serves anyone.

[NessOnett]

I disagree.

Wow, that is an extremely detailed, in-depth, well thought out, point by point response. It clearly addresses all the issues, and leaves no stone unturned.

It doesn't need to be in-depth. Bcadren made a bunch of statements of his opinion, and how this opinion influences his reasoning behind this post. I disagree (with each premise individually, actually, as well as the conclusion he draws from them)

Since these are are statements of opinion rather than fact, I can simply state that I disagree, and thereby state that I have a different opinion than him. I don't need to try to tear down a logical construct, or point out incorrect conclusions or statements laid on an unfactual foundation.

If someone said "Purple is the best color, therefore everything that is not purple should be made purple" I could similarly say "I disagree" and that would encompass all that needed to be said on the subject.

I could, if it would somehow make it clearer, break Bcadren's post down into sentences and write "I disagree with that" after each one, however I don't think that increases clarity or serves anyone.

Comparing "Trog removes variety from the game" with "Purple is the best color" is an extremely false comparison. Those statements share almost nothing in common. One has an actual point, with premise that you can almost objectively prove or disprove. The other does not. If you wanted to disagree with Trog removing variety, you'd have to identify ways in which Trog does not remove variety. Cite differences between BeX and BeY. Point to ways in which Trog adds variety to the game.

So to summarize, "I disagree" is actually not enough. Because, Ironically, "Trog removes variety" is not an opinion. Which was the crux of your rather defensive response. It is in fact a measurable criticism.

[stickyfingers]

You could always download the old version compile it and play it offline (Or heck some servers have builds all the way back to .10)

I tried to find version 0.4 (I've been told it had kiting Centaurs) but failed. Thank you, maybe I will win with SE some day

That was 4.1, and it's available on CDO.

[Sar]

If trog's hand didn't cost piety it would be stronger for the 70 mr, of course, but it does.

Um what, Trog's Hand is like 1000 times stronger than Regen because you get it on a Be after clearing D:1-2 without training anything but your offensive skills, because it lasts forever and because HOLY SHIT 70 (now 80) MR is so very important. I mean yeah it costs piety but Trog's piety is everywhere.

[Sandman25]

That was 4.1, and it's available on CDO.

Yes, console only. I can't play console

[Magipi]

Yes. I'm dead serious.

In CYC. I see.

[and into]

I'm not sure this particular proposal deserves it, but:

+ You get to select Trog so it isn't removing any variety. On the contrary, removing Trog removes variety, so there should be compelling reasons to do it.
+ A very limiting conduct in exchange for strong powers is an interesting notion and you don't *really* see it with any other gods, to nearly the same degree
+ Melee is by far the most tactically deep and interesting aspect of the game, so having a god that pushes that to the forefront by removing spell casting is not a bad thing.
+ Saying that spell casting is the only source of "variety" in the game and that skilling is a major component of interesting decisions are both very wrong. The latter in particular is puzzling; the tendency has been to streamline skilling as much as possible so that it takes up *less* space/time/energy/effort on the player's part, because that is not what Crawl wants you to be spending most of your attention on. This is pretty clearly spelled out in the manual, design philosophy, description of the game, etc.
+ Be is a very good way to learn the game, and yet has flexibility in that some species going Be provide a fairly unique and challenging experience [compared to other Be] (such as MuBe).

Edited last one for clarification.

[Sar]

MuBe is probably one of better spell-less Mu.

[TehDruid]

Some things I enjoy about Trog that I wouldn't want to see go away:

• Trog is the only god other than Okawaru to gift ammunition (although berserk doesn't work with ranged weapons, so there is no synergy there) and always gifts weapons instead of weapons+armour+shields, which helps with getting the best weapon for your melee monster very fast. Also, Trog's weapons are more biased towards +dmg ehnancements thatn +acc, I've seen a +12 dmg quickblade myself and a +15 one (I think XuaXua had found it some time ago). Even though quickblades and lajatangs were made more common (at least the former I think) in late versions, Trog is the fastest way to acquire one, period.
• Trog removing magic as an option is very interesting, because, as mentioned, you have to focus more on tactics than rely on haste + cblink to save your ass every time. Granted, I almost never use magic myself, so I may be a little biased.
• Berserk, while powerful early on, is meant to have a big risk/reward ratio. I don't know if that is achieved at the magnitude that is was intended, but berserking in a dangerous place like Zot:5 is something you need to do with extreme care, for example. aa is not an instant win combo.
• Trog's Hand is better than Regen for the reasons SIegurt mentioned. Way more available, no dangerous miscasts to worry about success rate. No investment in Necromancy/Charms needed.
• Trog affects magic staff acquirement (makes it extremely likely to get rods instead of enhancer staves, so he's great for people focusing on evo too other than mashing tab, Kobolds are great candidates for this acquirement).

If Trog ever gets removed, I'll be very sad.

[Siegurt]

Point by point then:

Yes. I'm dead serious.

I'm never quite sure..

I'm all for conducts and the like;

I think I actually see more posts for bcadren asking for 'conducts and the like' to be removed, i don't have any solid evidence for my disagreement here, but I disagree just on instinct.

but Trog's is so extreme that if you've played one berserker, you've played practically every berserker (save the edge cases like OpBe and FeBe).

Or MuBe, or SpBe or CeBe or NaBe or.. waitaminnute so I guess "edge case" is everything except the most popular ones, Actually I would even argue that TrBe plays significantly differently than other Be's (just because you're probably going unarmed)I would also contend that this is a opinion with no "provability" to it, because for a certain value of "the same" all characters in crawl are the same, and for a different (subjective) value of "the same" all characters in crawl are very different (even two of the same race and background)

Choosing a berserker start or going to a Trog altar removes all the variety from the game

Again, subjective opinion, depends on what you call "variety in the game" My opinion obviously differs from bcadrens, and it's equally subjective.

and makes it so only five skills really matter

Depending on what you mean by "really matter" for example does stealth "really matter"? Ranged skill? Evocation? I'm sure I could name 4 of the 5 which bcadren refers to here, but the 5th he refers to might be any one of those.

...cutting out literally all spellcasting for Berserk on tap; Regen+/MR+ and Berserk Summons. All effects, which you could have gotten elsewhere (though the spell Regen, isn't as strong, I know.)

Well, not quite Trog's berserk is better than "rage and there's nothing that summons a berserk iron troll, the MR portion of trog's hand is the part I consider more important, I rarely use it for regen power (well sometimes in the abyss) anyway all these powers are substantially different than the "regular" ones, and quite powerful to get in unlimited fashion as you do with Trog, I disagree here because I think his subjective definition of equivalency between powers here is different than mine.

Preventing stabs (TSO); slowing you (Chei) are all less extreme of things than cutting out all magic.

Well, that's as clear cut of an opinion as I've ever heard, and one I disagree with (I would say Chei is "more extreme" and TSO is "less extreme", personally)

I'm not saying that no magic is a death sentence; it's not Be is one of the most won classes.

Ah, my bad, here's a point I do agree with.

It's not really the easiest; it's just the simplest and most fool proof

I'm not quite sure what definition he *is* using for 'easiest' here, because "simplest" and "most foolproof" are the synonyms I'd commonly use for 'easiest' in this sort of game.

and I feel that using it takes too much out of the game.

I guess I can't disagree with the fact that he feels that way, I can just feel differently

I'd like to see it gone.

Again I guess I can't disagree that he would like this, I would dislike it.

The less extreme Okawaru can keep the place as the melee god.

Again we have a different definition of "the same" I don't think Oka and Trog play remotely similarly, and I choose one or the other depending on how I feel like playing.

Trog is just by far the edge case extreme god and it's too much to exist.

Yep, that's definitely the opinion that he has, and that I disagree with, I still disagree with it.

[Viashino_wizard]

I didn't think bcadren could top "giant tree people with a billion random mechanics" for terrible suggestions, but here we are.

[dck]

scribbler

[Arrhythmia]

purple is the best colour tho

[Patashu]

purple is the best colour tho

agreed