Why Elf? (Serious question)

[Hopeless]

So I've had this recurring thought whenever I read "Don't do Elf":
Why does it exist at all if all good players avoid it always? Surely there is a purpose to it besides being a death trap?

If not then it seems to go against the grain of the rest of the game. IMHO the idea of a hard to beat elf homeland is cool but it seems pointless if no one is actually going to accomplish anything by doing it. No rune, apparently suboptimal loot and ridiculously difficult mobs sounds just bad. I ask this here as someone who has only done Elf a few times before running away screaming each time and then vowing to never go back again. (And since the last time in early March I haven't.)

I'd love to hear from the Devs on this one (though I don't expect that.) But mostly I'd like to hear from the expert players who give such excellent advice as to what they believe Elf is about. In other words: Why Elf?

[Sar]

Elf is pointless in the same way entire postend is pointless (you don't have to go there to win), but Elf is much less annoying than postend. I enjoy it.
Though one can argue postend has runes, which are required for highscore, and Elf does not.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

apparently suboptimal loot

It's not that the loot is bad. It's quite good loot. But all loot is suboptimal. Great maces and great swords and branded armour and all those other nice things are very commonplace and you get more than you need just going through the mandatory parts of the game.

The only reason I do Orc is that after I've got a rune or two, the danger level is so non-existent that I can just mash o and tab until everything is dead.

[ontoclasm]

I frequently do Elf. It is not a death trap; it's not even remotely as dangerous as V:5, for instance. The main reason people avoid it is that a) the reward isn't that great, and b) they're irrationally afraid of banishment. I do it because I like beating up the elves, which is reason enough for me. Getting useful stuff out of the vault is a nice bonus but definitely not something I count on.

People are telling you not to do it (I presume) for the same reason that they say "don't play felids" or "don't follow Cheibriados;" those things are fine to do, they're just more dangerous and difficult than the alternative, and thus probably should be avoided until you know what you're doing. In other words, people generally give advice based on the assumption that your only goal is to barely eke out your first win, in which case Elf is probably a bad plan.

[bcadren]

I always do it. It has a good loot vault at the end, like Hell Branches and Slime: 5 and is really easy (compared to slime and Hell Branches). People avoid it because if you do it at the same time as Orc (if you do Orc before lair most the time, like me); it can be pretty fatal. I do it for, manuals, spellbooks, Artifacts and the like. It's the earliest good source of them. Just make sure you either have silence or can take some heavy damage spellcasters (one or the other)...OR one of the end vaults has a nice narrow bridge over water, Mephing elves and watching them drown is hilarious (but that branch end is a bit rare).

[Klown]

How about dropping the Demonic Rune(doesn't even have a hardcore guardian like the other 4 Pan runes) and making an Elven Rune for Elven Halls?

Only rune without some kind of awesomeness around it(epic branch, nasty guardian, stage of Hell, etc.) And Elven Halls is the only major branch without a rune.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Banishment is near the bottom of the list of reasons I avoid Elf. I take issue with "barely eke out your first win" because I feel like that attitude is the reason new players do Elf in the first place. Trying to min/max every little thing, worrying about XP loss from draining brand, deathly terrified of orbs of fire. You can win the game comfortably without worrying about things like that, and the reward gained from doing Elf is, in most cases, much much lower than the risk involved.

How about dropping the Demonic Rune(doesn't even have a hardcore guardian like the other 4 Pan runes) and making an Elven Rune for Elven Halls?

Well then I would just never ever do Vaults, for the exact same reasons I never do Elf right now.

[Sandman25]

How about dropping the Demonic Rune(doesn't even have a hardcore guardian like the other 4 Pan runes) and making an Elven Rune for Elven Halls?

Well then I would just never ever do Vaults, for the exact same reasons I never do Elf right now.

It can be fixed by raising min number of runes to enter Zot to 4.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Well then I would just worship Jiyva in literally every game.

[Sandman25]

Well then I would just worship Jiyva in literally every game.

Why don't you do it now? The same with Lugonu.

[bcadren]

Why not Split it so Abyss 1 and Abyss 2 can't access each other. Abyss 1 is where you get abyssed to by enemies. Abyss 2 requires a portal. There are no portals in the depths, only one in...Elf 3; similar placement to where an elf rune would be in the loot vault.

[DracheReborn]

I do it because I like beating up the elves, which is reason enough for me.

Who says flavor is dead in this game?

I find that a perfectly acceptable reason, FWIW.

[Klown]

The main point being it doesn't change Pan at all, and it encourages Elven Halls to at least be tried during 3 rune games. Not sure it'd be a bad thing.

[tedric]

Elf has much more and better loot than any of the Lair branches (except Slime, I guess, but that's another place many people will tell you never to go), and it plays like Vaults without the dragons, giants, trolls, wardens, sentinels and convokers. It's dangerous in that it's pretty much impossible to clear when you first find it, but later on if you can put together MR+++ and high EV or rMsl/dMsl it's very doable. You just have to lure the E:3 vault enemies out one at a time, which is usually pretty easy to do since there's almost always a bottleneck at the entrance. And as mentioned above, silence and a few other tactics can make short work of it too.

I only skip Elf in games where I already have extremely good gear by the time I'd consider clearing it, or in games where I don't have access to the tools that make me feel comfortable tackling it. Both are pretty rare. It's also pretty rare that I die in Elf now that I know how to handle it. And it's pretty rare that I'm completely disappointed in the loot, though it has been known to happen.

There's also an intangible fun factor: for some reason clearing E:3 feels like a more rewarding victory than most other places in the game. But that's idiosyncratic, and I don't expect everyone to share it, though it's good to know some do.

[Mattchew]

Loot, XP, fun.

Elf 1 - 2 are not very dangerous and often have shops. If you avoid & don't wake up the main vault on Elf 3 the remainder usually isn't too bad either.

By the time you can do Elf 3 you typically have good enough loot that the rewards aren't that exciting, but not always. I've gone there hoping to fill some hole or other. Spellbooks are good there.

Sometimes it's just fun. I did Elf 3 on my Fedhas character because the vault was begging for an oklob kill zone.

Sort of a tangent, but I think the game should not be optimized around what the best players do anyway. Getting rid of things that are gotcha-once newbie traps is one thing, but cutting out everything that superplayers ignore or don't need is a bad idea.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Well then I would just worship Jiyva in literally every game.

Why don't you do it now? The same with Lugonu.

You don't go Lugonu to go to the Abyss. You go Lugonu because you want to NEVER go to the Abyss.

I think it is really, really, really incredibly awful for players to be expected to do every area of the game, and defeats the entire point of having branching paths. The fact that some areas are not worth it is good. And if you try to make me do more of the game, I will do everything in my power to avoid it, i.e. worship Jiyva 24/7. Anyway "every character worships Jiyva every game" is an unspoken design goal, so whatever.

(I also think it is incredibly awful that 2 of the runes are insanely easy to get compared to the other 13)

[Sandman25]

(I also think it is incredibly awful that 2 of the runes are insanely easy to get compared to the other 13)

Well, I don't see a reason to limit runes to 3. If a character can get the orb with just 1 rune, why not? Orbs of Fire and alike will make the player think twice about ignored XP

[Hopeless]

You guys collectively rock. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

My own experience was that MR++++ was not sufficient for E3. That bore out on two different characters. However since it was still very early for me in my Crawl experience, it might just be that I was (am) too newbish to know HOW to do it well. (Not surprising, as I have never cleared tomb, gone to Pan, Hell, obtained the Abyssal Rune or finished Slime.)

As I said in the OP I was curious about what other players felt about Elf and it was enlightening.

[TeshiAlair]

Elf is so satisfying as an EE because you get to blow up basically the entire level.

[WalkerBoh]

Sandman just shut ol' article DOWN! Highlight of my day so far.

I do Elf a lot, usually because I'm not comfortable enough yet to try to do Vaults:5 or Depths. Often I'm just hoping for some resist that I haven't found, or a weapon upgrade or whatever. I will say, I don't do Elf unless I feel I can reasonably survive on Abyss:1.

But overall you shouldn't blindly accept it as truth when people tell you to do or not do things. Understand their reasoning and make your own decisions, it is the best way to improve at this game. Just making this thread shows you are on the right path.

[and into]

When I give advice it is to help people meet the minimum for winning. Anything beyond that is optional, it is just something people do for fun. Usually people find out how to have fun just fine on their own, and fun is subjective anyway, so I leave that to them in terms of if they *want* to do it.

I am happy to give advice on how to do Elf if someone says, "Hey I've won the game before but I haven't been in Elf before, and I'd like to see what it is like." If someone makes a post like that but hasn't won before, then yes, I will advise them not to take unnecessary risks with a totally winnable character that could net them their first ascension.

Personally I don't find Elf that much fun anymore, so I usually skip; I don't like that elves have become so common outside of Elven Halls, either, fwiw, nor the fact that so many other enemy groups have been "elfified" (see snake). They just aren't particularly fun or interesting enemy packs. My personal distaste for elves as enemies has nothing to do with the advice I give on it, however, and for a long time I did Elf with nearly every character who survived long enough for it to make sense, "back in the day."

[somesortofthing]

Why not Split it so Abyss 1 and Abyss 2 can't access each other. Abyss 1 is where you get abyssed to by enemies. Abyss 2 requires a portal. There are no portals in the depths, only one in...Elf 3; similar placement to where an elf rune would be in the loot vault.

That's a legitimately awesome idea. If abyss is a huge endgame thing, why not make the quest for its rune even more epic.

[tasonir]

Abyss isn't really a huge endgame thing, it's one of the shorter endgame branches, compared to pan and hell which are much larger (but also 4 runes). Sometimes it seems like it's dragging on because the next exit is a random distance away, but generally with "average" luck it doesn't take very long.

[eeviac]

I don't consider myself a good player though I do have a good chunk of wins. Playing optimally or carefully doesn't interest me - I run Elf every game because I like items.

[Knight9910]

So I've had this recurring thought whenever I read "Don't do Elf":
Why does it exist at all if all good players avoid it always?

The premise of your question is flawed. "All" good players do not avoid Elf. In fact, I would argue that any player who refuses to do Elf under any circumstances whatsoever is not a good player (not necessarily a bad player either, just kind of a fool who's needlessly frightened of a branch that's not all that dangerous to a high level character).

What IS true is that you don't actually NEED to do the Elven Halls. There's no rune and while the loot on Elf:3 isn't terrible it's also not necessary - very little of it will ever be endgame or postgame quality, and it's possible to find just as good of stuff elsewhere anyway. At the same time it requires a lot of investment in a lot of different resistances and offers a substantial risk for not much reward.

Still, Elf isn't that big a deal. I usually use Elf:1 and 2 for training before taking on the Vault at the very least.

And, of course, if you're going for a high score in the tournament the points you'll get for running through Elf are always more than you'd get for NOT running it.

[basil]

At the same time it requires a lot of investment in a lot of different resistances

MR, good LCS-resistant defenses, good HP. I guess you could skate on MR if you don't care about the Abyss but that sounds annoying.

[reaver]

There was an excellent discussion on this around 6 months back

Major points from crate, an excellent player, (with some edits to make it more readable without context):

There are some times where doing elf is ok, but you should always be looking for something specific that you are likely to find in the elf loot. If that's not the case then you're in the wrong place
.....
It's not that you can't clear elf ... it's that the more game you play the more you are banking on not making a mistake, and the rewards for elf often aren't even going to realistically improve your character so there's no reason to go there. Hence my first post in this topic.
.....

crate: would removing 50% of the loot from D, Lair and Orc (say) sway your verdict about Elf and Crypt?

I do elf when doing elf is good for my character. I see nothing wrong with this state of affairs. It is good to do sometimes. It is probably more often than not a bad idea to clear elf but it is something like 75-25 or so. What's wrong with that? It's still much more lucrative than Blade

.....

edit: I've entered elf:$ 61 times in online games (55 wins, 1 quit, 5 deaths), and I have 151 official online wins. This seems fine to me.

edit2: To actually answer the question, yes I would do elf more often if loot elsewhere is decreased, since I would more often have a specific item (often ring of rF) that I am looking for in elf (kind of amusing that one of the items I most often look for in elf is one that others in this topic have suggested is a "prerequisite" of sorts for going into elf to begin with!). But I'm not sure this is actually a problem at all.

[tasonir]

I started out doing elf all the time, generally just before zot, and it was fine. I rarely die there, after initially learning how to clear it (which involved a few deaths). Ironically I always avoided crypt, because I had mistakenly confused it with tomb when I was new, and have only lately been running it more. Nowadays I skip elf a lot, but I'm starting to think I should run it more often. I'll probably increase how much I run each of them (reasons: the above post makes good sense to me), for the loot and experience.

[Kramin42]

Another question: Why does Elf branch off from Orc? It doesn't make sense to me (what have elves got to do with orcs?) and it seems like a newb trap because Elf is much more dangerous than Orc. IMO it should be on D:13-15 (strictly after Orc) because it is probably more similar to Vaults in danger?

[Sar]

what have elves got to do with orcs?

they're bffs

[cerebovssquire]

Another question: Why does Elf branch off from Orc? It doesn't make sense to me (what have elves got to do with orcs?) and it seems like a newb trap because Elf is much more dangerous than Orc. IMO it should be on D:13-15 (strictly after Orc) because it is probably more similar to Vaults in danger?

Very dangerous branches are in less dangerous branches all the time (Tomb/Crypt, Slime/Lair, other Lair branches to a lesser extent). Elf really isn't an exception, the disparity in slime/lair and tomb/crypt is probably larger.

[KoboldLord]

"Never do Elf" is an overstatement used in hopes of getting newer players to consider the possibility of not mindlessly ramming their head into available content regardless of whether it is a good idea for their particular character to do so. Not doing Elf is a good possibility to consider doing, because Elf can be pretty dangerous, but avoiding Elf without thinking isn't any better play than doing Elf without thinking is.

For the most part elves are basically draconians with fewer hit points, so if you're safe for Zot you're safe for Elf. A few possible concerns make Elf before Zot specifically appealing, for example if there is a total lack of fire resistance spawned anywhere in D, L, U, or the Rune branches you cleared, but those situations aren't going to be particularly common. Most often, Elf will burn a bunch of turns but not really change Zot very much for you. Nor is Elf particularly lucrative xp-wise, compared to what you're getting from Vault or Depths at that same point in the game.

I usually do Elf at some point. I haven't really ever been interested in speed-running, and I usually do try to clear all the content that I don't think will kill me because the game is fun and playing the game is fun and I'm never going to show anybody my score. Sometimes it's a total bust, but sometimes I do come up with something that I wear or use through Zot and the post-endgame.

[Kramin42]

Another question: Why does Elf branch off from Orc? It doesn't make sense to me (what have elves got to do with orcs?) and it seems like a newb trap because Elf is much more dangerous than Orc. IMO it should be on D:13-15 (strictly after Orc) because it is probably more similar to Vaults in danger?

Very dangerous branches are in less dangerous branches all the time (Tomb/Crypt, Slime/Lair, other Lair branches to a lesser extent). Elf really isn't an exception, the disparity in slime/lair and tomb/crypt is probably larger.

Yeah, I guess that is true and I'd agree that these steps in difficulty are good because they make the game more interesting (I was kinda forgetting about slime because I hardly ever go there). Still, those other branches all make sense flavour-wise to me, so I think that having the entrance to Elf on D:13 with an entrance vault similar to what Orc/Lair/Vaults/Depths get would be nice. I think it would still be a significant step up in difficulty on D:13.

That's probably not reason enough to bother changing anything though. There are plenty of other oddities in crawl, like Shoals being sunny even though its underground

[Arrhythmia]

Another question: Why does Elf branch off from Orc? It doesn't make sense to me (what have elves got to do with orcs?) and it seems like a newb trap because Elf is much more dangerous than Orc. IMO it should be on D:13-15 (strictly after Orc) because it is probably more similar to Vaults in danger?

Very dangerous branches are in less dangerous branches all the time (Tomb/Crypt, Slime/Lair, other Lair branches to a lesser extent). Elf really isn't an exception, the disparity in slime/lair and tomb/crypt is probably larger.

Yeah, I guess that is true and I'd agree that these steps in difficulty are good because they make the game more interesting (I was kinda forgetting about slime because I hardly ever go there). Still, those other branches all make sense flavour-wise to me, so I think that having the entrance to Elf on D:13 with an entrance vault similar to what Orc/Lair/Vaults/Depths get would be nice. I think it would still be a significant step up in difficulty on D:13.

That's probably not reason enough to bother changing anything though. There are plenty of other oddities in crawl, like Shoals being sunny even though its underground

The orcs mined for gold straight through the roof of the ancestral elven halls. Does that work?

[Knight9910]

"Never do Elf" is an overstatement used in hopes of getting newer players to consider the possibility of not mindlessly ramming their head into available content regardless of whether it is a good idea for their particular character to do so. Not doing Elf is a good possibility to consider doing, because Elf can be pretty dangerous, but avoiding Elf without thinking isn't any better play than doing Elf without thinking is.

This. This is basically a better way of making the point I was trying to make earlier.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Sandman just shut ol' article DOWN! Highlight of my day so far.

What are you talking about? Sandman suggested an idea that I think would be good, so I am confused by your statement.

[Sprucery]

The reason I always do Elf is that I find it fun and interesting. That's the same reason as why I play Crawl, btw.

[Sar]

Sandman suggested an idea that I think would be good, so I am confused

[Sprucery]

Well, I don't see a reason to limit runes to 3. If a character can get the orb with just 1 rune, why not? Orbs of Fire and alike will make the player think twice about ignored XP

Flashback:

  Code:

Dungeon Crawl version 3.20 character file.

Jysky the Destroyer (Hill Orc)
Level 23 Fire Elementalist)
Experience : 23/483477
Strength 18     Dexterity 12     Intelligence 16
Hit Points : 172          Magic Points : 30
AC : 23          Evasion : 12          Shield : 9
Gp : 114

You escaped.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

 Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +5,+5 short sword of slicing (weapon) (687gp)

Armour
i - a +2 orcish cloak (worn) (160gp)
j - a +2 helmet (worn) (198gp)
s - a +2 shield of protection (worn) (539gp)
u - a +1 pair of gloves (worn) (61gp)
w - a +4 dwarven scale mail of fire resistance (worn) (2453gp)
x - a +1 pair of boots (worn) (65gp)

Magical devices
b - a wand of fireball (5) (135gp)
f - a wand of teleportation (5) (60gp)
F - a wand of frost (17) (117gp)
I - a wand of disintegration (2) (75gp)
J - a wand of invisibility (7) (87gp)
M - a wand of lightning (8) (180gp)
N - a wand of hasting (3) (72gp)

Comestibles
c - a bread ration (80gp)
v - 9 royal jellies (2520gp)

Jewellery
e - an amulet of the gourmand (105gp)
l - the ring "Xuminynon" (595gp)
n - the amulet "Tu" (neck) (560gp)
p - a +4 ring of intelligence (350gp)
q - an amulet of resist corrosion (210gp)
r - a ring of life protection (left hand) (420gp)
t - a ring of protection from magic (280gp)
y - a ring of magical power (280gp)
z - a +5 ring of intelligence (420gp)
C - a ring of see invisible (140gp)
D - an amulet of clarity (210gp)
E - a +0,+5 ring of slaying (210gp)
G - a ring of fire (right hand) (434gp)

Potions
d - 5 potions of healing (100gp)
g - 2 potions of restore abilities (100gp)
K - a potion of mutation (50gp)

Books
h - a book of Charms (250gp)

Orbs of Power
k - the Orb of Zot (10000gp)

Miscellaneous
B - a serpentine rune of Zot (1200gp)
H - a lamp of fire (500gp)

You have 1 experience left.

  Skills:
+ Level 12 Fighting
+ Level 17 Short Blades
+ Level 5 Darts
+ Level 10 Armour
+ Level 9 Dodging
+ Level 7 Stealth
+ Level 2 Stabbing
+ Level 9 Shields
+ Level 12 Traps & Doors
+ Level 11 Unarmed Combat
+ Level 8 Spellcasting
+ Level 20 Conjurations
+ Level 18 Fire Magic

You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:
a - Burn
b - Throw Flame
c - Conjure Flame
d - Sticky Flame
e - Bolt of Fire
f - Fireball
g - Fire Storm
h - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
i - Repel Missiles

          Mutations & Other Weirdness
Your mind is acute (Int +1).
You digest meat inefficiently.
You can control translocations.
You can teleport at will.
You can spit poison.
You can sense your immediate surroundings.
Your muscles are flexible (Dex +1), but weak (Str -1).

[red_kangaroo]

How about dropping the Demonic Rune(doesn't even have a hardcore guardian like the other 4 Pan runes) and making an Elven Rune for Elven Halls?

Yes please!

[netkitten]

sometimes it's the only source of easy exp and a chance to find some useful books/rare weapons (qblade etc)

[Sandman25]

Flashback

Is it bad? Some top player plays his own version which is quite short as far as I know.

[XuaXua]

one of the end vaults has a nice narrow bridge over water, Mephing elves and watching them drown is hilarious (but that branch end is a bit rare).

Unless you're playing a Merfolk or Octopode or worshiping Fedhas, you do realize elves pick up and use a lot of the loot from the vaults now, right? You can't get it back once it's in deep water.

[XuaXua]

what have elves got to do with orcs?

they're bffs

IIRC, Tolkien orcs are made from the undead bodies of elves or something.

So, now that we've confirmed Crawl it is totally stealing from Tolkien, the devs are definitely going to have to extract Elf from Orc and throw it into Vaults or whatever.

[NessOnett]

I like Elf, and I always complete it on...basically every character. I'm never concerned with my turn count, so once a character is sufficiently ready for it, the odds of dying are minimal, the odds of relevant loot are good(I've always found good stuff on Elf:3 even for high level, well equipped characters), and the odds of exp gain is guaranteed. Yeah, you can get banished, but by the time I do Elf(probably later than I could), I can deal with being banished. It's not really that threatening, and it's very rare to begin with.

Maybe I'm a fool for wasting my time with it, but it always just feels like freebies by the time I get around to it(way after when I find it), so I'm happy with it.

That said, if it had a rune in it, and I could up my 'standard' game to a 5-rune win, I wouldn't complain.

[Sar]

@XuaXua: Tolkien orcs are elves corrupted by Morgoth (Sauron's superior in pre-LotR times). Probably.

@NessOnett: "minimal" odds of dying in Elf are somewhat worse than no chance of dying in Elf (=not doing Elf), which is mostly why people recommend to ignore it in a game played to win.

[NessOnett]

@NessOnett: "minimal" odds of dying in Elf are somewhat worse than no chance of dying in Elf (=not doing Elf), which is mostly why people recommend to ignore it in a game played to win.

Same can be said for...99.9% of the game? Your odds of dying are higher doing ANYTHING rather than not doing it. If you want to take that to the extreme, just don't play. That completely minimizes your odds of dying.

But as far as the overall odds of winning the game, I still disagree. In all my times clearing Elf, which are considerable, I've died once. And that was to a unique who could have spawned in a half dozen different branches I had gone to. And the net gain in character power between when I start Elf and finish it is usually considerable in both equipment and level. So I feel that my odds of winning the game actually go up a lot on average when I go into it versus ignoring it.

[XuaXua]

@XuaXua: Tolkien orcs are elves corrupted by Morgoth (Sauron's superior in pre-LotR times). Probably.

Kinda the same thing; if that connection is leveraged (even though they are "mortal enemies" in LotR), then the whole "we are not using concepts from D&D or LotR or NetHack" distinction can be used to rationalize Elf's removal from a thematic standpoint.

[Sar]

Same can be said for...99.9% of the game?

Nah, not really. Non-Slime Lair branches are significantly easier and have runes. Vaults are harder but have a rune you need. XP isn't really that big of a deal in Crawl, and ascension kit is pretty much "fire resistance".

@XuaXua: I always thought Crawl Elves are partners with Orcs - you often meet orc "delegations" in Elf, and it can be speculated Orcs provide Elves with ore and gold in exchange for certain magical services. Besides, DE you meet in Elven Halls are cruel dark magic users, not exactly Tolkien's elves either.

[Turukano]

I'm never concerned with my turn count

Well, I am, and nevertheless I usually go to elven halls. When you are fast it's about spending 2 k turns.

the odds of relevant loot are good

Yes, when I'm missing something which I consider to be essentiell for my char (like haste spell) I have a good reason to go there.

and the odds of exp gain is guaranteed

That's another point. Your char will be better skilled in vaults, depths or whatever.

Maybe I'm a fool for wasting my time with it

I don't think so.