Idea: Angelic Demonspawn Mutations

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Hello all,

First post here, I'm hideously addicted to crawl, so I thought I'd join the support group. Three wins under my belt so far (amazingly, wins two and three were consecutive!). Possibly interested in getting into some development some day.

Anyway like anyone else I have many crazy ideas, and I thought this one was worth mentioning:

Angelic Demonspawn Mutations

Sounds like a paradox, but bear with me...

My original idea was that Angels should be a player race...why not, we have demons already, and I think it would be fun to play as an angel. Angels are certainly more established in the Crawl mythology than octopodes or formicids (although I love those too). I saw something like this proposed before as "Celestials"...I think it's a good idea, I think it would be too finicky though to add different qualities for each god.

Something vaguely humanoid, with talents for bows and swords perhaps and invocations definitely. Possibly a defining characteristic could be intrinsic Faith, which I think could be an interesting mechanic.

But with other physical qualities, it didn't seem entirely satisfying to just slap on the cliche "feathery wings, golden halo, little harp" and call it a day. I don't think it's an entirely bad idea, but I'm not sure if it has the legs to stand as an individual species...it encroaches on the space of Demonspawn with their high Invocations, and Tengu and Gargoyles with their flying. Plus it doesn't fully encapsulate the wide variety of angels that appear throughout different cultures.

So...how about merging this idea with Demonspawn by adding a few "angelic" mutations? It makes sense to me thematically, seeing as how angels and demons are often cosmically related beings of the divine, with demons as fallen angels and such...the distinction between them begins to blur. The name could be changed to something more neutral like "celestial", but I think "demonspawn" is still fine...probably getting combined with a human makes you demonic anyway. And I don't think it would have to be a binary switch like monstrosity, probably mixing and matching characteristics would be fine and more interesting. The way I see it, the more variety for Demonspawn, the better. You could roll a relatively pure angelic being by chance, or maybe Zin'll fix you up into a proper-looking angel if you ask nicely.

Possible Mutations:

WINGS. I feel like this should be a mutation just for demonspawn...I know there are other flying races, but it wouldn't show up all the time, and come on lots of demons have wings. Lots of angels do too. This could be a body slot or scales slot mutation, but I'm leaning scales slot...angels don't necessarily want to be covered in scales, and it would be cool to see wings with horns and stuff too. Possibly multiple levels could give permaflight, small AC bonus, slight boost to speed while flying, or what have you. I think it would be very badass if the third level was growing three sets of wings like the seraphim.

Faith. Could be incorporated as a demonspawn mutation. Not sure what multiple levels would entail...double faith? Invocations "wild magic"?

Halo. Like TSO's, maybe different somehow. Hopefully it would be mutually exclusive with the stealthy mutations, and would stack with TSO's. Could possibly be an umbra instead for demons or "dark angels".

Beauty. It is a well-noted fact about angels that their appearance often induces fear or amazement. Many demons are known to be very charming or seductive as well. Perhaps the first time an sentient monster enters LOS, it performs a check against HD or whatever, and may be confused, scared, paralysed, charmed, etc. with low probability.

Other existing mutations work well for angels as well, such as rN, hellfire, or "guardian angel", with little cherubs replacing imps at low level.

Relationship with religion:

This is a tricky point, considering demonspawn are forbidden to worship the good gods, and you would think that angels ought to be able to. This is possibly a point in favor of angels being their own species, or not existing at all. I considered it might be interesting to have angels as the inverse of demonspawn/undead...unable to worship the evil gods, so their natural invocations skills are focused on acts of good. But then there's profane servitors and the like.

This idea is sort of complicated, but it's a compromise...what if you could worship any god at the start of the game, but upon joining a good or evil god for the first time, your choice is made forever. You may join the good gods and never worship an evil god, or vice versa. Upon making your choice your mutations could change (halo-umbra, guardian angel/demon, etc.), and possibly some purely cosmetic features (feathered wings/bat wings). I'm not sure if there's a balance reason why Demonspawn shouldn't be able to worship the good gods, but it seems OK. It's a relatively minor change but it feels like a weighty permanent decision...you are an agent of divinity, will you serve the darkness or the light? OR snails???

Anyway let me know what you think!

[TeshiAlair]

Conceptually, Demonspawn are the spawn of any number of demonic types. No reason one type couldn't be Fallen Angel.

Ability to wield holy wrath weapons would be neat, or holy-branded aux attacks.

[dck]

how the fuck does flight with three flapping wings even work

[duvessa]

Why do you think there should be more demonspawn mutations in the first place?

[Hirsch I]

variety is cool... isn't it? I feel like I always get the same ones, it gets old after a while.
but that may be because I run a lot of Ds.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Haha, not sure about the mechanics of three-winged flight, just seemed pretty badass. Possibly divine assistance is required.

Well, I like variety, and demonspawns are the race of mutated variety. So far as I'm concerned, more mutations means more variety means more replayability and potential for fun combinations. (Assuming they're relatively balanced, which is also easier said than done). I understand that there is something of a push presently to "prune" the game by removing unpopular/redundant stuff, but there can be new added at the same time. I think adding some angelic mutations would be a cool way to get this idea in the game, whereas an entirely new species might be too much...I was just playing yesterday and it occurred to me that it might be fun to play as an angelic being.

[bcadren]

how the fuck does flight with three flapping wings even work

The seraph has 6. In some versions of angelology there are some with 9.

On a more serious note. As the person behind the Celestials. I'm for the idea of a 'holy' race as a better opposite to Demonspawn than Demigods are...BUT combining with Demonspawn and/or having the same random mutation gimmick...nah bro, nah. I admit my original draft was too complicated, but repeating the same gimmick as another race or combining it with the evil race are both on the 'no' list for me. Branded UC might be doable, but it'd be brokenly powerful, UNLESS you also gave them a bad UC apt, in which case I'm not sure if people would use it... AND actually being HOLY HOLY means there's a fair chance the gods that the evil gods would refuse worship: [Lugonu, Kikubaaqudgha, Yredelemnul, Makhleb]

[red_kangaroo]

Firstly, I'd like to say that I second Hirsch I in that more Ds mutations would be great, cool and wonderful. The wider the roulette the more interesting the results.

Next, I don't see anyting bad with the concept of several 'angelic' mutations in Ds pool. It is more or less a rule of fantasy plot that one of the heroes must fall in love with a villain, possibly leading to children. Angels and demon are no exceptions and when thier parents are parted either by their incompatible alignments (love can hold you together only for a time, you know) or by greater force (their gods, for example), the abandoned child has all the reasons to grow up into psychopatic mass murderer all DSCC characters are. So, angelic does not mean good.

And lastly, I like the wings and beauty mutations, even though I'd change them a bit:

Leathery Wings - think impish small wings, you cannot fly with them but gain a jump attack (higher tier means longer range), they could possibly make your body deformed.

Angelic Wings - large feathered wings (a pair for each tier, so you end up with three pairs of wings), no permaflight but reather Fly ability that makes you fly and be swift for a short time, also gives you a chunk of SH (I find SH more approprite that AC, as you can block attack with your wings )

Third Eye - inspired by beauty but more demonic, your gaze has a chance to confuse each monster entering your LOS, the monster must know about you (you cannot gaze in the eyes of someone not paying attention and furter it would break your stealth, to confuse even monsters who do not know about you, I think) and the chance is based on mutation tier and your level oppsed by creatres HD

That's all I have to say.

[Hirsch I]

swift flight is already tengu's thing. we already have spines, that are poor man's retaliatory headbutt, we dont need any more facets mimic other species. actually, we dont need spines either, IMO, but I can be wrong.
as I said, more facets is good, but I dont like any of the ones that where proposed here.
demonspawn's facets neeed to be passive, so jump attack and flight are bad.
third eye and beauty are not very good either. I dont like the idea of having an effect being applied, with low chance, at everyone I see. in what would that affect my play?
halo or umbra just copy TSO and Dith respectively.
faith would be useful only for a small amount of characters, and completely ignored by others. not good at all.
I would love to brainstorm facets all day, but first we need to se if the devs are willing to give them any more. (how about 27 facets, Dpeg? sounds a good number! )

[Turukano]

Slightly related to this topic: some time ago there was already the idea of playing an "angelspawn" which means intrinsic mutations without being evil.

[red_kangaroo]

demonspawn's facets neeed to be passive, so jump attack and flight are bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only activated Ds mutation is Hurl Hellfire. I agree that majority of mutations should be passive, to prevent ability overload. However, small number of activated abilities does for more interesting gameplay, as it gives the player more options.

I'm not pressing the OP mutations, but several new acitvated mutations with unique effects (such as Hellfire) would better, not worse for Ds playability. No need for half mutations to be activated, but a single one is really no reason for 'no more activated muts'.

third eye and beauty are not very good either. I dont like the idea of having an effect being applied, with low chance, at everyone I see. in what would that affect my play?

Does not neccessarily need to be confusion, but debuffing any enemy to lay eye on you sounds rather powerful to me. How would it affect your gameplay? Well, it could help you survive against every foe you will face.

It is definitely for discussion what kind of effect should that 'Third Eye'-esque mutation apply, I'd even say something like a semi-reliable chance for single monster suppresion could become an interesting element to consider in your tactics.