SO... Have you cheated yet?

[XuaXua]

Sometimes you get a really good character and you just know you're going to screw it up.

And all you get with Crawl is one chance.

So I ask you

1) Have you used wizard mode yet?

I haven't.

2) Have you gone to the saves folder under the crawl game folder and copied your character out, gotten killed, and placed your character back?
Did you write little batch files to save and restore characters in this fashion?

I only did the above once just to try and win. I did win, but it's an empty win, so I stopped the practice and deleted my batch files (and will only copy the save if I upgrade to latest trunk).
I ask because today I had two pretty good characters (one was awesome) and totally got them both killed for nonsensical reasons (electric branded whip wielded by the slaver rat and lack of knowing frost giants throw bolts of cold).

[FlyingPants]

Ya i save scum all the time. Not gonna play a game for hours just to lose for some nonsensical reason.

[Gabriellk]

I play only on the online servers, so there's no way to cheat.

[mageykun]

Wizard mode isn't cheating. It's experimentation. It's how you do science to the game! It's so you can get a crazy idea, go "I wonder if...", and then be able to test it without producing whatever ridiculous set of circumstances you imaged the hard way, or having to blow a character to do so. It's also an in-game way to teach yourself spoilers.

I scummed a bit when I first started playing. A few things are really tempting to re-roll until you get good results- like troves and mutations. Lost interest quick.

Ya i save scum all the time. Not gonna play a game for hours just to lose for some nonsensical reason.

Believe it or not, the possibility of random death is what makes the game fun. If you scum your way out of death, the game gets boring.

[tcjsavannah]

Early on I used Wiz mode to save a couple of characters that I was really upset that I was going to lose, but those characters are still sitting in my 0.6 bin, and since I've moved on, I've never been tempted to save any more. I have also never copied a savegame file to reload.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I've used Wizard mode a couple times, but only from the get go and mostly to poke at some things I almost never see, like Volcanos. Played since 0.5.0 and I've only ever seen one spawn naturally. Also used it to test stuff too, such as if a 20-headed hydra can kill a 50 AC character (hint: they can) or if you can use scrolls of curse weapon on a wielded corpse (hint: you can't). My first win was in 0.6.0 and I don't think Mac tiles got Wizard mode until 0.7.0, so I already had at least one legit 3-runer under my belt before I toyed around, whether I liked it or not.

I haven't yet used Wizard yet to save a character, but I have accidentally save scummed in Trunk due to Labyrinth crashes on two occasions. Lab appears on a level, try to enter, crashed. Try it again, level is exact same, so I go directly to the Lab. Get inside, crashed. Load again, last saved inside. Wander around, crash. Repeat about six more times until I stumble upon the Minotaur before crashing. Say "screw it" since I know where it's at, use wands of digging to go straight to the Minoutaur and get out before it crashes again so I can keep going with the character. It really felt like cheating, but my only other option was to abandon the character.

[KoboldLord]

Wizmode is an absolutely essential tool for play-testing experimental content. You cannot reasonably participate in designing mini-vaults or other content if you are unwilling to play-test them. Wizmode should never be conflated with cheating.

No, I've never save-scummed in a roguelike. What's the point? I'm not exactly playing for the story here!

[seth]

I scummed a few times when Xom killed me directly, but I still felt dirty.

[Megabass]

Everyone's already brought up Wiz mode, so I'll leave that alone.

I came close to save-scumming one time. Had a HoPr that I really really liked. He didn't even get far in, but there was a lot of character to his progress and allies for some reason. I started keeping a backup save. Just in case. Nothing ever happened, but just in case it did, it would be there. I kinda felt bad about it though, like it was some dirty little secret sitting on my desktop. Eventually I nut up and deleted it. I didn't want to hit any milestones on an illegitimate save. It'd haunt me.

Not long after I'd gotten rid of it, things took a turn for the worst and my orc went down alongside his first, and only remaining ally. Sort of an odd sense of closure about it. I dunno. Anyway, I've since retired the name and put his ghost to rest. Good run. One I'll remember.

[ghend]

why would you cheat in a rougelike?

[joellercoaster]

I started backing up characters when I started playing trunk, but have stopped now after one amazing experience with developers going above and beyond to backfix a crashing save file.

I agree with the others - without the irrevocable pain of losing a great character, the sweetness of victory would not be the same.

But y'know. That's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Scalding Steam]

I cheated by playing as a Felid.

[smock]

why would you cheat in a rougelike?

So you can see what lies beyond the temple!

Seriously, when Rogue or Omega are your first computer games and you're 13 years old, save scumming is good way to learn the game. Wizard mode works better, though. But yea, once you have some basics, permadeath is a great motivator.

[Grimm]

why would you cheat in a rougelike?

Rouge is sort of already cheating in the sense that altering your face's natural colour is deceptive but beyond that there's no fundamental reason, though some might regard heavy lining around rouged lips as cheating.

[lucy_ferre]

I only play roguelikes for the challenge. Permanent death makes things more interesting. Removing it eliminates my only reason for playing them. The only reason I don't play online more often is because I like my current win streak.

[snow]

I don't scum or use wizard mode.

I can't tell you how bad I'd be at the game if I did. Sometimes it just takes a few deaths for something to click.

Here's an example. Using your darts on a SpEn before reaching level 2 drastically reduces your chance of death on the first floor. If I scummed I wouldn't have realized a SpEn starts with darts for a reason and would in the future be forced to scum to get past the temple reliably. That's it really... if you scum you'll end up needing to scum. If you play the game right you won't need to scum and will eventually win streaks reliably.

[Daydreamer]

Yes, I've save-scummed a few times, although not for a while now. When I started playing I used it sometimes to cheat at mutation roulette. Then I got this really good sludge elf transmuter. IIRC that was my first character to get a rune. I used save-scumming after that to get to the end of the game so that I could see a lot of the content that I had never got at before and knew I probably wouldn't legitimately get to any time soon. For me, at that point carrying on with that character was a lot more fun than being bumped right back to the beginning and spending the next fortnight struggling to get beyond the Lair again. Nowadays I don't save-scum because, having seen that content, I want the challenge of a legitimate win. But it served its purpose for me and I don't regret doing it. I'm not playing for anything beyond my own pleasure.

[TheDark]

I haven't cheated yet, but I came close. I used a memory-modification program and mapped out all the memory locations of certain values, so that I could watch them as I went throughout the game. Being able to know exactly what your hunger value is is interesting. On my computer, the exact memory address is 00E37FD4.

[XuaXua]

I haven't cheated yet, but I came close. I used a memory-modification program and mapped out all the memory locations of certain values, so that I could watch them as I went throughout the game. Being able to know exactly what your hunger value is is interesting. On my computer, the exact memory address is 00E37FD4.

That's hexidecimal for "stoumach".

[Dustbin]

I still haven't tried wizard mode even to test stuff , and save scumming seems like you might as well just turn wizmode on and be done with it.

[Ann Hal]

Everyone should feel free to use wizard mode or "cheat" as they please.

Crawl is a brutally, unfairly hard game. Making backups of saves so you don't have to waste countless hours playing L1 - L8 over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is a perfectly legitimate way to play.

The fact that your character just got his/her/its keester handed to him/her/it by Nessos/an Orc Wizard/whatever will still leave an impression, even if you can restore with a backup.

You don't need to lose a bunch of gaming hours for that lesson to stick any better. Besides, not everyone has the time/wants to spend the time, learning every trick to survival the hard way.

Course if you use backup saves, you probably shouldn't make a YAVP when you ascend. But aside from that, if using wizmode/backup saves makes you feel good, then do it!

[joellercoaster]

Crawl is a brutally, unfairly hard game.

I disagree with this part strongly!

It is indeed quite hard, but I don't feel like it's unfair at all - in fact, compared to a lot of games, you could call it scrupulously fair by design. The fact that some people have not just wins, but winning streaks, means that it can be played well enough that death is generally the player's fault - not luck. It's just very difficult to do.

I'm not one of those players and may never be, but when I die, I've generally good a pretty good idea of a way to change how I go about things next time.

Course if you use backup saves, you probably shouldn't make a YAVP when you ascend. But aside from that, if using wizmode/backup saves makes you feel good, then do it!

Yes to both of these things

[galehar]

Everyone should feel free to use wizard mode or "cheat" as they please.

Sure, anyone can play the game as they like. But most players who try to save scum quickly realise that it makes the game less fun, not more. And that you're not really improving your playing skills as much when you can revert any mistake.

[snow]

I disagree with crawl needing spoilers.

I played unspoiled with a spriggan assassin of trog. I used wands on hydras not knowing about fire brands and went for my third rune in the slime pits. I only died when I engaged the royal jelly and it summoned a dozen slimes to kill me. Realistically crawl can easily be won without scumming and without spoilers. There's a dozen ways to solve any problem you come across and being told the "best" solution isn't required to continue.

And about playing the first few floors over and over again... give me a break. It takes less than 10 minutes to get to the temple and if you know how to play your build you have a 95% chance of doing so. Post temple you just have to find the lair and clear it... which isn't hard at all.

[joellercoaster]

You don't need spoilers to win, but you need spoilers to know how all this stuff works. I doubt you knew what minimum delay was or that you should turn off weapon skill once you reach it. I doubt you understood the mechanics of weapon base damage and the difference between slaying and enchantment. I doubt you understood rod hunger, or that sustenance does nothing for spriggans. I doubt you knew that XP cost for skills doubles at 14 then stops increasing.

I know what you're saying, but I didn't know any of those things (except the hunger for spriggans thing) for my first couple of wins (the second of which was all runes). I won't claim I was unspoiled, because I clearly wasn't, but the level of spoilage that's useful or needed (wanted) varies a lot from person to person.

That stuff really is handy but not necessary to enjoy and even win the game... didn't someone win with a Troll of some kind, without reading any spoilers ever (on principle)?

(I know you're talking about mechanical understanding, which some people want in order to enjoy playing as well as possible - but there are plenty of other kinds of player.)

[njvack]

You don't need spoilers to win, but you need spoilers to know how all this stuff works. I doubt you knew what minimum delay was or that you should turn off weapon skill once you reach it. I doubt you understood the mechanics of weapon base damage and the difference between slaying and enchantment. I doubt you understood rod hunger, or that sustenance does nothing for spriggans. I doubt you knew that XP cost for skills doubles at 14 then stops increasing.

Wow.

I consider myself 'extensively spoiled,' up to and including wizmode experimentation and source diving, but I don't know... most of this. Still don't understand rod hunger or the mechanics of weapon damage.

Knowing all this stuff (and more) is how people can have 14-win streaks, huh?

[KoboldLord]

People who say you don't need spoilers to play Crawl have probably just internalized the most important spoilers. You absolutely will not get to the Temple if you don't know how to fight an orc priest, for instance, and that knowledge only comes through prior experimentation, whether yours or a random internet person's. The game is filled with such examples, and while you may stumble onto a couple of them through random luck, you're eventually going to spoil future attempts by means of simple trial and error.

[Ann Hal]

And about playing the first few floors over and over again... give me a break. It takes less than 10 minutes to get to the temple and if you know how to play your build

How does a new player figure out "how to play" their build?

By (1) trial and error or (2) reading forums/wikis/guides--aka "spoilers".

You say spoilers are not necessary. OK. Let's take spoilers off the table as an option then.

That leaves trial and error.

Now, let's take a new-ish player who can get through D1-8/whatever just fine. They meet Kirke or Mara or Rupert or whatever for the first time and get blasted and dumped into the inventory screen. Even by reading the morgue file, they'll have virtually no information on what killed them or what they did wrong. For them to do "trial and error" on Kirke or Mara or Rupert or whatever using a different tactic will require them to replay the first several levels of Crawl over and over and over and over again.

That can get boring. That can get frustrating. That can cause newer players to move on to other games.

But more importantly, replaying the first several levels over and over doesn't teach a player how they could have dealt with/avoided getting killed by Kirke or Mara or Rupert or whatever.

By using wizmode/save files, the same new-ish player can test different tactics against the same tough opponent and figure out a viable solution (a) without having to repeat the first several levels and (b) with the same equipment/spells/options they had at the time they met their demise.

[Stormfox]

Conclusions you draw about how the game works based on gameplay experience are not spoilers. Spoilers are information you either haven't gathered yourself through observation of gameplay, or that you can't possibly obtain simply through observing gameplay.

[mageykun]

There's nothing wrong with trying to learn from experience, though the process is slower than reading spoilers. That, and having a working knowledge from experience is very different from actually understanding how something works (as I learn anew every time Galehar has to correct my accidental spreading of misinformation in the advice forum ).

Trying to learn from scumming can be detrimental though. Yes, with enough re-rolls, you will eventually find the one strategy that allows you to survive an encounter (whereas in wizmode you get to unrealistically burn continues). However, this can lead you to develop unrealistic strategies that just rely on low probability outcomes always working in your favor (so long as you have the patience- a scummer can always roll twenties) that will get you killed in normal play. Save states teach you bad habits.

Also, while we're here, I'd like to again extol the virtues of wizmode experimentation. Half the "can _ do _ " or "how does _ do _" type questions we get can be answered in a few minutes there. Heck, it's often how I check the answer myself.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Now, let's take a new-ish player who can get through D1-8/whatever just fine. They meet Kirke or Mara or Rupert or whatever for the first time and get blasted and dumped into the inventory screen. Even by reading the morgue file, they'll have virtually no information on what killed them or what they did wrong.

That happened to me when I was new when Elrocha one-shotted me with Crystal Spear. The experience wasn't useless, it taught me "Ok, if I see her again, I'm running the hell away from her instead of trying to charge her with a short sword." Which, in turn, has greatly increased my survivability in future Elrocha encounters.


I can see where you're coming from and what you're getting at, but Crawl isn't that type of game. Getting killed and having to start over is a massive consequence and, combined with the randomly generated dungeon, is one of Crawl's draws. That sort of thing is not for everyone and I wasn't sure I'd enjoy it either when I first tried it. Some players will enjoy it, some will not and will go to other games. That's just how things are and Crawl cannot please everyone.

Also, unless they remove it from 0.8.0, Crawl has Felids who get extra lives as they level up. Great species for new players since they can die and immediately try something else if they have any lives remaining without starting over or having to scum or use Wiz Mode. The heavier weight of your actions and the consequences they bring are still there but being insta-gibbed doesn't necessarily mean start over.

[snow]

Scumming is detrimental to future plays even with the one shot example. If you don't scum you learn to run from things you don't recognize by instinct. So you start presuming everything you don't understand CAN one shot you... and this mindset can actually get a player pretty far. If you scum you're only hurting yourself.

[Baldurino]

Once you have the basics down it is not about trial and error. It is about focus and the decision to really try and win. Most losses occur with people getting tired/careless/too confident.

I understand the random element will kill you. But this thought should not enter the mind of the crawler. If you blame your losses on chance, then your win is also chance. Then it follows that if you churn out enough characters then you eventually win. I believe this mindset is part of the reason why some people take years or never ascend and others only weeks or months

The best "build" is to play really cautious.

--------------------------------------------------------

Removed hostile comments toward other users. -- lucy ferre

[lucy_ferre]

Please don't browbeat users who play differently than you. Crawl is a single-player game, so you're free to do whatever you want without affecting anyone. If some people enjoy hollow, pointless games, than let them.

Yes, nobody is going to respect a save-scummer's win if they try to post it alongside legitimate wins, but otherwise it doesn't matter. And playing skills is only important if you play online.

[dpeg]

I don't care how players cheat, but I won't let the "game can't be won unspoiled" nonsense pass freely.

There's at least one player (Derek, he is lorimer of Sporkhack) who set out to win unspoiled. That is, he didn't read spoilers. He allowed himself to think and so he played only berserkers, under the assumption that they're winnable and that by doing so, you bypass all the complications of magic.
You can infer all the crucial bits from observation (and it may help to read the manual): It is obvious how orc priests work -- if you need a spoiler for that [insert implication here]. Who cares about weapon speed and optimal choice as long as you go with "higher skill and more damage output is better"?
Needless to say, if you want to play in an optimal fashion, there's no way around knowing as many details as possible.

No unspoiled streaks, sure. Unspoiled winners are out there, though.

[Baldurino]

Yes lucy I agree with your "hollow, pointless games, than let them."

Im just trying to help flypants and Ann. I was really trying to make my argument strong so they get the point and change for the better. Like helping a friend with a bad habit. Or those tv shows where they give a nerd a make over.

dpeg:
I agree with you.
If someone wins without spoilers that is impressive but a waste of time. Crawl is about mechanics. If you want to be the best crawler in the world like elliptic you need to study the theory. People are not expected to reinvent the wheel. Chess players learn alot of theory that has been collected over the centuries and that is not considered being "spoiled."

[joellercoaster]

If someone wins without spoilers that is impressive but a waste of time.

Why a waste? Again, it's somebody who enjoys Crawl in a different way to you... chill, it's a many-coloured world. By some people's definition, all of us who play are wasting our time

Some people play Crawl for years without winning, or even coming close. They just play because the process of playing is pleasant, the game is enjoyable purely for its own sake too.

[snow]

While spoilers aren't needed to win at all there really isn't anything wrong with them. For example say you've spent 6+ hours on a character, have a few runes, and see a unique you've never saw before. You probably should look it up on the wiki. Granted I played the vast majority of the game unspoiled but I also had no clue there was a wiki or forum for this game.

[galehar]

About spoilers, I think the most useful ones are about monsters and uniques. When discovering the game, many deaths are due to bad threat assessment. Then you'll start looking up each new monster/unique and you die much less. Spoilers about game mechanics are needed for players who want to optimise their gameplay for all-runers, challenging combos or streaks. Spoilers about monsters are really helpful for a beginner to reach his first win.
We can improve the situation by giving monsters better descriptions. I don't think we need to add any numbers or technical details. If all descriptions were able to provide details about the monster's dangerousness while staying purely textual and thematic it would be awesome.

[Megabass]

I don't think we need to add any numbers or technical details. If all descriptions were able to provide details about the monster's dangerousness while staying purely textual and thematic it would be awesome.

Ooh hey, what about making their description have a context sensitive line hinting at it, like how player ghosts have varying adjectives to show their relative strength?

[galehar]

I don't think we need to add any numbers or technical details. If all descriptions were able to provide details about the monster's dangerousness while staying purely textual and thematic it would be awesome.

Ooh hey, what about making their description have a context sensitive line hinting at it, like how player ghosts have varying adjectives to show their relative strength?

Player ghost adjectives aren't relative (to the player), they are absolute. They are based on the XL of the deceased player.
I don't think we should try to provide any relative information. Some monsters are much more dangerous to some builds than to others, it would be impossible to give an accurate threat level. Or maybe just give a warning for OOD monsters, but I can't think of anything good.

[jpeg]

I don't think we should try to provide any relative information. Some monsters are much more dangerous to some builds than to others, it would be impossible to give an accurate threat level. Or maybe just give a warning for OOD monsters, but I can't think of anything good.

Hmm... how does Ashenzari's danger estimation work? The general impression seems to be that it works rather well.

[Megabass]

I don't think we need to add any numbers or technical details. If all descriptions were able to provide details about the monster's dangerousness while staying purely textual and thematic it would be awesome.

Ooh hey, what about making their description have a context sensitive line hinting at it, like how player ghosts have varying adjectives to show their relative strength?

Player ghost adjectives aren't relative (to the player), they are absolute. They are based on the XL of the deceased player.
I don't think we should try to provide any relative information. Some monsters are much more dangerous to some builds than to others, it would be impossible to give an accurate threat level. Or maybe just give a warning for OOD monsters, but I can't think of anything good.

No, no, I mean relative to each other, silly. Just some little message based on... I don't know, hit dice or something. Could probably even use the same nomenclature and get away with it.

[joellercoaster]

How about on XP value?

[Radiant]

I did a wizmode once. Just to see what a truly high level character looks like and how they fair up against some of the toughest enemies of the game.


It was fun, just because I had never seen many of the enemies I conjured out of thin air or used some of the spells I had, but honestly playing the game without

I definitely use spoilers though, I figure that the only way that I'm ever going to win this game: a. lots of advice or b. playing 6 hours a day.....and I don't have 6 hours a day. Generally, I think the game is pretty spoiler friendly because the devteam has made sure to scrupulously remove cheap ways to win.

still doesn't prevent me from forgetting to renew my levitation and splash in magma in sight of the swamp rune, but hey, that's life.

[KoboldLord]

I don't care how players cheat, but I won't let the "game can't be won unspoiled" nonsense pass freely.

There's at least one player (Derek, he is lorimer of Sporkhack) who set out to win unspoiled. That is, he didn't read spoilers. He allowed himself to think and so he played only berserkers, under the assumption that they're winnable and that by doing so, you bypass all the complications of magic.
You can infer all the crucial bits from observation (and it may help to read the manual): It is obvious how orc priests work -- if you need a spoiler for that [insert implication here]. Who cares about weapon speed and optimal choice as long as you go with "higher skill and more damage output is better"?
Needless to say, if you want to play in an optimal fashion, there's no way around knowing as many details as possible.

No unspoiled streaks, sure. Unspoiled winners are out there, though.

I call shenanigans. Derek Ray is already fairly experienced with multiple major roguelikes, and indeed is personally responsible for creating a major Nethack fork. He was a walking spoiler full of relevant information long before he even tried Crawl. Crawl may not be exactly the same as other major roguelikes, but playing skill developed in one will affect play in another.

There's a difference between keeping spoilers to a minimum and keeping spoilers out completely. I'd question whether it's even remotely plausible to start a game of Crawl unspoiled, since simply in order to have ever heard about it you pretty much need to be in communities that are familiar with that sort of thing.

I think that in the general case the community is a good thing. It is not 'cheating' to log into a message board and ask for help on beating Sigmund, and the proper choice of action (turn your fighter around and walk away until you find a wand or something) is not necessarily one that's going to come up by trial and error. Nor do I think it's a good idea to dumb complicated challenges down sufficiently that every person can immediately intuit a solution. It's totally okay to post a CIP and ask for advice when you're stuck.