How many runes are normal? What is "normal" anyway?

[GlassGo]

I consider 15 rune run as a normal, not 3 rune. Don't want to start holywar.

[Viashino_wizard]

I consider 15 rune run as a normal, not 3 rune. Don't want to start holywar.

That's nice, but it's objectively false.

[damiac]

I consider 15 rune run as a normal, not 3 rune. Don't want to start holywar.

That's nice, but it's objectively false.

You consider it objectively false that he considers a 15 rune run normal? That's not how opinions work.

I am in the same boat. I will never ascend a character with 3 runes again. To me, winning and losing are basically the same thing in this game, meaning your character is done playing. So to me, when I manage to get a character into the position to be able to win, I'd rather keep playing with that character. I assume he's saying the same thing.

Going for 15 runes is a bad idea if your only objective is to 'win'. But if your only objective is to 'win' it's also a bad idea not to pick a MiBe or something similar.

[Viashino_wizard]

I consider 15 rune run as a normal, not 3 rune. Don't want to start holywar.

That's nice, but it's objectively false.

You consider it objectively false that he considers a 15 rune run normal? That's not how opinions work.

No, but it is how facts work. And the fact is that 15 rune runs are the minority of crawl games played. So while it might be normal for you personally, you can't use it as the norm when talking about crawl in general.

[GlassGo]

I can. We talk about "normal" not "win".
So, obviusly, if there is "normal", than there is "not so normal", and it is "easy mod" with 3 rune run.
That's how it works. Not "objectivily false\true" and other exercise in demagoguery.

[Hopeless]

I can. We talk about "normal" not "win".
So, obviusly, if there is "normal", than there is "not so normal", and it is "easy mod" with 3 rune run.
That's how it works. Not "objectivily false\true" and other exercise in demagoguery.

I think what he was saying is that just because it is normal for you to go to 15runes most people don't. This is the average or "norm" way the game is played. Most people go for 3 runes (at least at first) because it is easier and because they want to win more than they want to be a completionist. The attitude that 3 rune runs are to be avoided (for whatever reason) is not typical of Crawl players. (Yet, you may change people's minds eventually.)

[Sandman25]

Both 3 and 15 rune games are normal.
Is it correct to say that "normal" games are MiBe and everything else is abnormal?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/normal

[Sar]

All the time I've been involved in Crawl community I've been under impression that the game is divided on "normal" (which is "enough runes to win" and usually includes Dungeon/Depths, Lair, Orc, 2 not-Slime Lair branches, Vaults, and Zot) and "extended" (which is normally everything else, though some people consider slimy and abyssal runes to be preferable to silver one in some cases). This distinction was useful to have because extended game has some threats that do not exist in normal game, there are gods, weapon brands, spells and abilities that are better or worse in normal or extended... No one is calling you a freak for going for 15 runes. Why would you get offended by that ever?

[damiac]

All I was saying is that you cannot say it's false that someone else considers something normal. If he had said "15 rune games are normal" that's one thing, but he very clearly specified that he "considers 15 rune games normal".

Unless Viashano has some reason to believe Glassgo was lying, and knows that in fact GlassGo considers 15 rune games to be "abnormal".

[Sar]

what

[GlassGo]

I think what he was saying is that just because it is normal for you to go to 15runes most people don't. This is the average or "norm" way the game is played. Most people go for 3 runes (at least at first) because it is easier and because they want to win more than they want to be a completionist. The attitude that 3 rune runs are to be avoided (for whatever reason) is not typical of Crawl players. (Yet, you may change people's minds eventually.)

I evaluate(?) "normalness" not by how many people stick to it or something similiar, but by how logically it is, and what common sence tell me about it.
So, it tells me, that wining a game by going through 50% of a game, while another 50% is abandoned is NOT normal.
It's just a rush, affection to win win at any cost, to rise "winrate" in his own eyes. This is normal in the sense that "most people do that", but not normal from the point of view of common sense.
What's the point to do 3 rune, if it's easy, predictably and for me - boring (after I could do it 3 times) and to skip 1\2 or 1\3 of game content?
See no logic, only bleeding intention "to win".

[Sar]

Read my post, please.

[duvessa]

I'm pretty sure that the classification of 3 runes as "normal" is explicitly supported by most of Crawl's developers (although I know of one exception). It's also held by all of the elite players.

[DracheReborn]

"Normal" used in everyday language means typical, standard, etc.

In crawl context however, "normal" is used to refer to the 3 rune game. Everything else is called "extended". This doesn't mean playing for more than 3 runes is abnormal or anything like that, that's just the usual terminology that crawl people use.

[GlassGo]

Read my post, please.

Already did it. and what? I can see, like juggling with a words like "extended" and "normal" led you to believe that there are "normal" and "extended" game.
So, your argument is based on what is the subject of dispute. Feels like... um...

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Currently the good part of Crawl ends after collecting 3 runes and clearing Zot. And playing bad games is abnormal (I hope).

[Sar]

Already did it. and what? I can see, like juggling with a words like "extended" and "normal" led you to believe that there are "normal" and "extended" game.

Spoiler: show

what

[GlassGo]

Currently the good part of Crawl ends after collecting 3 runes and clearing Zot. And playing bad games is abnormal (I hope).

Opposit for me. I can walkthrough 3 runes like a tank, with Tm for example, but Abyss, Panda, Ziggurat?

[Klown]

I consider 3 rune as the standard 'win'. That's why 15 is called 'extended'.

[LackofCertainty]

3 rune is "normal" because that's what people call it.

Personally, I play every character intending to do extended. Problem is, if people use the same word to mean different things, then the word is less usefull, which is why we call 15 rune games "extended."

If you don't like 3 rune games being called "normal" then start calling them by another name and get it to catch on. Maybe try to re-brand 3 rune games as "short," if the distinction bothers you.

[headcrab0803]

only branchless MuCks should be considered as a valid win knowing crawl's challenging nature

[Lyrick]

How many runes are normal? What is "normal" anyway?

I consider 15 rune run as a normal, not 3 rune. Don't want to start holywar.

You already started a "holywar". Don't post weird, unclear, highly subjective questions that only ask to be flamed.

Why should there be an idea of a normal run? Or a "standard" run? What the hell are you asking this??

Do you wanna find out the average finished game rune count? the "typical" number of runes a crawler should be getting? the "standard" for end game rune count?

The minimum number of runes required is 3. Thats pretty standard since its the minimum needed to "win".
The number of possible runes obtainable in only the main dungeon is 5. This is also pretty standard, although with the difficulty of Tomb many ignore it anyway.
So 4 and 5 are also fairly "normal" rune counts.

After that you don't really see much variance, because if you're able to get even one of these runes you are probably prepared to get the other 9 anyway, being max level and having found yourself all the resistances and spells you'd need. Hell, if you can do Tomb you are probably somewhat capable of taking on extended.

[moocowmoocow]

What a silly thing to fight about.

[Viashino_wizard]

Currently the good part of Crawl ends after collecting 3 runes and clearing Zot. And playing bad games is abnormal (I hope).

Opposit for me. I can walkthrough 3 runes like a tank, with Tm for example, but Abyss, Panda, Ziggurat?

All of those are easier than the main game (outside certain edge cases like Hellion Island). While the enemies have bigger numbers and/or more dangerous spells, by the time you're doing them your character is strong enough to handle them with minimal danger.

[Sandman25]

All of those are easier than the main game (outside certain edge cases like Hellion Island). While the enemies have bigger numbers and/or more dangerous spells, by the time you're doing them your character is strong enough to handle them with minimal danger.

Does it mean you have never died in extended?

[Viashino_wizard]

All of those are easier than the main game (outside certain edge cases like Hellion Island). While the enemies have bigger numbers and/or more dangerous spells, by the time you're doing them your character is strong enough to handle them with minimal danger.

Does it mean you have never died in extended?

I've never died in extended without doing something incredibly stupid (like fighting a Hell Sentinal with <30 hp or meleeing TRJ in the open), no.

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure I've rage-ascended more often than I've died in Extended

[TeshiAlair]

Thread title- "What do people think?"
Thread content- "Nope you are wrong"

Hi, I'm TeshiAlair, and welcome to CYC.

[Knight9910]

By the traditional definition of "normal" it would be what most people do. By that respect, I think "normal" would be "die somewhere around halfway through possibly with one or two runes."

...that said, three runes is the bare minimum for a win, and for the average player going into Hell is equivalent to saying "I don't actually want to win this after all" so yeah.

And besides that, if we say that 15 runes, the absolute maximum, is the "normal" game, then we set ourselves to high. I mean, what do you do if you want to go beyond that? How do you go above normal when normal is the highest you can possibly go? I mean, I suppose you could try something like running a Mummy Chaos Knight, if you manage to get the Orb then you go run the Tomb while ascent monsters plague you.

But that's stupid.

I say 3-rune game is a normal win. 15 rune is a challenge, like going for all the achievements in an XBox game.

[Hopeless]

I think a certain person may enjoy playing with the words more than he acknowledges. Normal has a dictionary meaning and a pop-culture definition and because the dictionary definition doesn't suit he chooses to play with the pop-culture definition instead. (ie: "What is normal? It is what you want it to be.") That's alright. But the fact is normal in the context of Crawl means one thing (what most people do, as many have pointed out. Especially funny is the comment that most die. Because that is so true :p)

[GlassGo]

[You already started a "holywar".

Not me, the person who RESPOND on my OPINION.

Don't post weird, unclear, highly subjective questions that only ask to be flamed.

Don't tell me what I should do, and I don't tell you what dark and creepe places you should go. Thanks for future understanding.

Why should there be an idea of a normal run? Or a "standard" run? What the hell are you asking this??

Ask him.

In the normal game, yes.

you wanna find out the average finished game rune count? the "typical" number of runes a crawler should be getting? the "standard" for end game rune count?

I don't. And I alredy mention that in previous post - and I gladly quote it again, because you are one of the people who doesn't read what opponent has already written.

I evaluate(?) "normalness" not by how many people stick to it or something similiar, but by how logically it is, and what common sence tell me about it.
So, it tells me, that wining a game by going through 50% of a game, while another 50% is abandoned is NOT normal.
It's just a rush, affection to win win at any cost, to rise "winrate" in his own eyes. This is normal in the sense that "most people do that", but not normal from the point of view of common sense.
What's the point to do 3 rune, if it's easy, predictably and for me - boring (after I could do it 3 times) and to skip 1\2 or 1\3 of game content?

Highly recomend to read it.

The minimum number of runes required is 3. Thats pretty standard since its the minimum needed to "win"

You used the word "minimum", so after all you know perfectly well, why I call it as "easymod", right? For me, it not far from "place an Orb of Zot on D:1, take it on 100 turn, and win". Not "the same", but I hope you can see what I mean.

All of those are easier than the main game (outside certain edge cases like Hellion Island). While the enemies have bigger numbers and/or more dangerous spells, by the time you're doing them your character is strong enough to handle them with minimal danger.

Does it mean you have never died in extended?

I've never died in extended without doing something incredibly stupid (like fighting a Hell Sentinal with <30 hp or meleeing TRJ in the open), no.

OK. So why, how do you think, people more often do only 3-5 rune run, and don't want to see another delicious
exciting game content, if it is so safe to see?

By the traditional definition of "normal" it would be what most people do.

I don't think so. It's definition depend of society, where it used. For me, "normal" - it is how it should be, not how it is.
There are many maniacs, psychopaths and rapists in the world, there are a lot of murders in the day from early times to the present day - so, is it normal? No, I don't think so.

And besides that, if we say that 15 runes, the absolute maximum, is the "normal" game, then we set ourselves to high. I mean, what do you do if you want to go beyond that? How do you go above normal when normal is the highest you can possibly go? I mean, I suppose you could try something like running a Mummy Chaos Knight, if you manage to get the Orb then you go run the Tomb while ascent monsters plague you.

Yeah, something like that. "Fastest win", "Branchless win", restrictionson god\race\background, etc.

But that's stupid.

I don't think so. It's beyond normal, you said so yourself. Also, it's not my cup of tea. It's more like mathematics than a game, while Crawl already have sufficient math.

15 rune is a challenge, like going for all the achievements in an XBox game.

Nope. To get all achievements, you should do something stupid\boring like 10 000 killcounts, or perform deliberate restrictions, like in ToME4 you should kill bosses without Rod of Recall.
I think that, to see full game content, all game part isn't the same as to get all (mostly) stupid achievements.

[TehDruid]

Bender.png (9.71 KiB) Viewed 14483 times

[Knight9910]

By the traditional definition of "normal" it would be what most people do.

I don't think so. It's definition depend of society, where it used. For me, "normal" - it is how it should be, not how it is.
There are many maniacs, psychopaths and rapists in the world, there are a lot of murders in the day from early times to the present day - so, is it normal? No, I don't think so.

So... aren't you basically just saying that I'm right here? As you said. what is considered "normal" is determined depending on the society it's used in, not what one individual within that society does. Most people within the "society" of this game community are fine with 3 runes, therefore 3 is what is "normal." The fact that you, personally, as an individual, prefer to go for all 15 does not make it "normal" anymore than one individual choosing to murder people makes that "normal."

Okay, it actually is obvious what you're actually trying to say - to you "normal" means whatever you want. But I'm choosing to ignore that because otherwise we might as well just stop talking and lock the topic now since you'lve already admitted you don't actually care about who's right. I mean, jeez, by that logic you could say that, by your definition, the word "elevator" means "exploding cat" and "hello" means "kill me, please." If we're going to distort the meanings of words that much we'd might as well just stop talking at all.

15 rune is a challenge, like going for all the achievements in an XBox game.

Nope. To get all achievements, you should do something stupid\boring like 10 000 killcounts, or perform deliberate restrictions, like in ToME4 you should kill bosses without Rod of Recall.
I think that, to see full game content, all game part isn't the same as to get all (mostly) stupid achievements.

I think you misunderstood the point that I was making. Maybe a different example would help. Let's say you're playing Metroid - it is entirely possible to win that game without getting 100% - you just go through, get what you pass by on the way and what items you need to progress, kill the final boss, and escape. That would be a "normal" win. Alternately, you could choose to put off the final boss so that you can go through the game and make sure you collect 100% of the energy tanks, extra missiles, so on and so forth, and win the game with 100% completion.

That, essentially, is what a 15 rune win is. It's going above and beyond what you need to do. It's possible to win with 3 runes, and for most people that's good enough. Hence, a 3-rune win is the "normal" way to go. Going for 15 runes is like a 100% complete win in Metroid - you personally might always go for that, but it's not "necessary" or "the norm."

[damiac]

Oh god, what happened here?

I was merely being pedantic, saying that one cannot say a statement of opinion is objectively false. I also agreed that my 'normal' game is to attempt 15 runes.

In DCSS culture, a 'normal' game is 3 runes. If you have a different definition of 'normal', you should make that clear, which GlassGo did, so everyone has the benefit of knowing where his advice is coming from. If I were to give advice to a player, I would stick to the community's definition of 'normal', and if I departed from that, I would make it clear.

[Curio]

Oh god, what happened here?

Spoiler: show

[tasonir]

[Curio]

And for the first question: 24 runes is normal. If we speak about elder futhark

[Knight9910]

Ah, the days when you could get infinite demonic runes... what actually WAS the record, exactly? I've heard it was over 250.

[n1000]

how the hell is the distribution of runes collected normal it's obviously bimodal....???

pretty obvious to me really., smdh

well, thanks for reading.

[shizmoo]

Oh god, what happened here?

I was merely being pedantic, saying that one cannot say a statement of opinion is objectively false. I also agreed that my 'normal' game is to attempt 15 runes.

In DCSS culture, a 'normal' game is 3 runes. If you have a different definition of 'normal', you should make that clear, which GlassGo did, so everyone has the benefit of knowing where his advice is coming from. If I were to give advice to a player, I would stick to the community's definition of 'normal', and if I departed from that, I would make it clear.

I hate when people say this (along with wrongful use of "begs the question" and saying you cant prove a negative), it is completely wrong. Usually people who hold to these beliefs are intellectually lazy and try to avoid justifying their opinion/beliefs/etc.. If your opinion is 1+1=5 it is objectively false. Simply tacking on "IMO/IMHO" doesn't exempt you from basic logic. Where there is no objective standard like preference for music, then ya your opinion cant be wrong if you believed polka was the best genre.

[Curio]

...if you believed polka was the best genre.

What do you mean "if"? Polka is the best genre.

[Jeremiah]

0 runes is normal because only around 1% of games (or something like that) ends in a win.

[Turukano]

"If your opinion is 1+1=5 it is objectively false"

http://rlv.zcache.com/1_1_3_tshirt-p235 ... nc_325.jpg

[damiac]

Yeah, that's true. But the statement of "I consider 15 runes normal" isn't objectively false. A normal game would mean a typical game. If he plays most games going for 15 runes, then in fact for him 15 runes is normal.

If he said "In my opinion, the crawl community considers 15 runes normal" that'd be objectively false.

Also, how can you prove a negative? You can certainly disprove a positive, but that's not the same thing.

[shizmoo]

Yeah, that's true. But the statement of "I consider 15 runes normal" isn't objectively false. A normal game would mean a typical game. If he plays most games going for 15 runes, then in fact for him 15 runes is normal.

If he said "In my opinion, the crawl community considers 15 runes normal" that'd be objectively false.

Also, how can you prove a negative? You can certainly disprove a positive, but that's not the same thing.

If the creator(s) of this game states 3 rune run is normal (I dont know if they have/haven't) then "I consider 15 runes normal" is false.

Contradictions are by nature wrong. Example - "There are no married bachelors". Unless you believe Laws of logic such as A=A/etc.. aren't absolute, those negatives prove themselves wrong.

Another example is an all white board of directors for company "X". I can prove the negative "There are no black members in the board of directors for company "X".

All negative statements are actually positive claims - "(It is true)There are no rabbits". Thats why the attempt of "This statement is false" to disprove Logic falls flat. "(It is true)This statement is false" - is self-contradictory.

Im sure im missing some other things on the topic, its been 5+ years since I delved into logic/debating and just let my brain rot playing video games now

[GlassGo]

So... aren't you basically just saying that I'm right here? As you said. what is considered "normal" is determined depending on the society it's used in, not what one individual within that society does. Most people within the "society" of this game community are fine with 3 runes, therefore 3 is what is "normal." The fact that you, personally, as an individual, prefer to go for all 15 does not make it "normal" anymore than one individual choosing to murder people makes that "normal."

Please stop. It's sample of pure demagogy. I have enough demagoguery in my native language.
I was hoping that we're talking to understand the issue.

Okay, it actually is obvious what you're actually trying to say - to you "normal" means whatever you want. But I'm choosing to ignore that because otherwise we might as well just stop talking and lock the topic now since you'lve already admitted you don't actually care about who's right. I mean, jeez, by that logic you could say that, by your definition, the word "elevator" means "exploding cat" and "hello" means "kill me, please." If we're going to distort the meanings of words that much we'd might as well just stop talking at all.

Wow, you just a real, green fat troll.
You have no word confirming your position, but you have already started with the labeling.

I think you misunderstood the point that I was making.

I think, I read what you wrote. And I think, you love to shift the responsibility to others.

Maybe a different example would help. Let's say you're playing Metroid - it is entirely possible to win that game without getting 100% - you just go through, get what you pass by on the way and what items you need to progress, kill the final boss, and escape. That would be a "normal" win. Alternately, you could choose to put off the final boss so that you can go through the game and make sure you collect 100% of the energy tanks, extra missiles, so on and so forth, and win the game with 100% completion.

OK, so we started game of analogies.
Let's make it clear - it's Fallout 2, you're going from Klamath straight in San Francisco, take a quest, then you go to gas station, you get APA, blueprints, get tanker on-line and fueled, then oil platform, G.E.K.K. and bla-bla-bla.
Or, to make it absolutely clear, you can do it like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C7EPaJfud0
Someone call it not a "speedrun", but "skiprun".

Where there is no objective standard like preference for music, then ya your opinion cant be wrong if you believed polka was the best genre.

There are objective standarts, but I fear your head will just exploded, if you ever find out about it.

Yeah, that's true. But the statement of "I consider 15 runes normal" isn't objectively false. A normal game would mean a typical game. If he plays most games going for 15 runes, then in fact for him 15 runes is normal.

Thanks, but this is not what I meant. No matter even if I going for 3 runes (and that is why, after my first succesful VpEn cleared all 27 floors and Lair with its branches, I did not have even thought to go to Zot and finish the game - because it's absolutely pointless for me, to finish game while I only have seen about 50% of its content, so I went to Cocytus and then died, of course).
I mean, like I said - "normal" isn't what majority do, it is what is should be.
It's normal, when you visit all places, and done all the job. It's normal, when you read whole book, not only preamble\introduction. It's normal, when you watched the whole movie.
If it isn't - let someone clearly explain to me why it is not normal.
Explain, and not hiding behind the phrase "everyone is doing it."

If the creator(s) of this game states 3 rune run is normal (I dont know if they have/haven't) then "I consider 15 runes normal" is false.

Being the creator of the game - it means to be outside the logic?
Wow, brilliant.
Btw, do you actually know what the reason behind that statment, if it really so?
Even so, it was wise move in terms to build up community,and not to scare people away from the game. That's all.

[damiac]

I think by 'proving a negative' people mean like:
You cannot prove there is no such thing as 'X', but you can disprove that 'X' exists in any given location.
And I suppose even that's limited, so I guess you're right to say it's incorrect to say one cannot prove a negative, or I don't properly understand the difference between a "negative" and "positive" statement. Which is quite possible...


But I think examples of negatives one cannot prove would be things like:
There is no such thing as god/buddha/spaghetti monster
There is no other intelligent life in the universe
Gravity isn't controlled by a secret invisible society of gnomes

The negatives one cannot prove are based on positive statement which could theoretically be proven. If someone found a diety out in space, I guess they'd have proven its existence.
Finding an alien would prove they exist.
If the invisible society of gravity gnomes were to communicate their existence to us, they would be proven to exist.

DCSS didn't invent the term 'normal' so what the devs think is normal play isn't relevant to what any specific player considers normal. Normal's already a word, and it's loosely the same as typical. So if I play 99 15 rune games vs 1 3 rune game, to me, a 15 runer is normal. I know the community I'm talking to generally has a different accepted meaning of a 'normal' game though, so I'd make it clear, if I were to give advice based on my own play, that my 'normal' play is probably different from yours.

[Sandman25]

Sorry, but "1+1=5" has nothing to do with definitions. "I define X as Y" can never be false. Theoretical example: "I call 3 runes win a lazy/pathetic/normal/standard/stupid win".

[Sar]

lol

[and into]

Oh geez.

Taking the whole Crawl community in account:

Game ending with 0 runes is the most common game experience.
3 rune win is most common amongst won games.
15 rune win is much less common amongst won games.

What you personally shoot for or like to do is your business.