Buff Mummies

[damiac]

Hey, my hilarious post didn't show up!

imo you could eat the food also

Your mummy eats the food!

I assume this was actually intended for a different thread.

Oh well, I just think mummies could stand to be quite a bit more interesting, and more powerful. I didn't realize it was so important to so many people that mummies must be the worst species at all times, in all situations. It really seems like a no-brainer to not use mummies if you want to win.

[theglow]

This is me irl. I'm jacked and dead

[damiac]

FR: New race - Buff Mummies

They're like regular mummies, but more buff.
-1 apts across the board
Instead of eating they have to stop every so often and work out, otherwise they lose 'buff' status, and turn into regular mummies.
Instead of the usual hunger statuses, they get:
starving - out of shape
almost starving - getting a gut
very hungry - chubby
hungry - flabby
full - toned
very full - cut
engorged - engorged

[TehDruid]

Counter Proposal:

Human wrapped in toilet paper.

Human aptitudes
Fire vulnerability
Shitstorm immunity

[damiac]

Shitstorm immunity? That's way too powerful, I feel like all my characters die in shitstorms.

[Klown]

If everyone accepts that species can be weak or OP, why does every GDD species thread go 'omg weak' or 'omg so OP!!' ?

[bcadren]

To be back on topic. I still don't see mummies as that weak of a species. It's just except the rPois+, none of their innate bonuses help in the early game...
Being hungerless can be huge if you are of Sif in mid-game; letting you, perse Spam Shatter instead of being able to cast it 3 times before needing food.
Having essentially lichform earlier than anything else makes doing tomb as your second or third (or even first BEFORE the rune lock was in place) a trivial affair.
Shadow Dragons, other undead and liches with their draining attacks are far less or a threat.

If we see gargoyles as the 'permanent statue form' species; then mummies are the 'permanent lich form' species; the most fitting bonuses therefore would be to add the three things lichform has that mummies don't:

• Draining UC/claws 1 (trivial, unless you train against a bad UC apt)
• +6 base AC (pretty useful)
• And higher than average MR (+50 for the form) [they currently have the same as humans.]

The two levels of Necromancy boosting does make reaching the spellpower cap on level 4-7 Necro spells easier; though the second booster is gained so late so as to not really matter (level 26).

And I do think, since spellcasters are so fragile, especially when magic skill is low and a low-skill beatstick is better: though probably worse in the long run; Monk, Zealot (except Trog) and Warrior-Mage starts are the best spawn-ins to survive the early game.

[moocowmoocow]

To be back on topic. I still don't see mummies as that weak of a species. It's just except the rPois+, none of their innate bonuses help in the early game...
Being hungerless can be huge if you are of Sif in mid-game; letting you, perse Spam Shatter instead of being able to cast it 3 times before needing food.
Having essentially lichform earlier than anything else makes doing tomb as your second or third (or even first BEFORE the rune lock was in place) a trivial affair.
Shadow Dragons, other undead and liches with their draining attacks are far less or a threat.

Except for that whole Dispel Undead thing.

[cerebovssquire]

This is me irl. I'm jacked and dead

can i get your number

[bcadren]

Except for that whole Dispel Undead thing.

Dispel Undead is like the rarest threat in the game. Or second rarest after Holy.

6 creatures have it: Nergalle (Unique); Unborn; Revenant; Shadow Fiend; Gloorx Vloq.

The Shadow Fiends make one of the branches of hell actually deadly to you; though the b.Draining and s.Torment it would be using if you were living are worse. You're not likely to run into more than one or two outside of Tartarus.

Revenants and Unborn are two of the rarer Crypt monsters. Revenants have the strange side effect of healing you too. (Their Fireball damages the living and cures the undead.)

In the case of Gloorx (Since I've never faced him as an undead) I'm not sure if that makes him a lot more deadly to mummies or full of cantrips. The rest of his spells only affect the living (p.Arrow, Miasma, s.Torment, b.Draining).

In general though; Dispel Undead affecting you...gives a few more creatures hellfire, basically (since it's of similar power and both ignore all resistances).

[cerebovssquire]

Dispel Undead, compared to torment, is completely irresistable, does damage more consistently (i.e. just as much the second time it is cast) and can actually kill you, which is relevant because a lot of extended characters are pretty much immune to most sources of damage so that being tormented to low HP isn't as bad as it sounds. I've always found Shadow Fiends much worse for my undead characters.

[bcadren]

Dispel Undead, compared to torment, is completely irresistable, does damage more consistently (i.e. just as much the second time it is cast) and can actually kill you, which is relevant because a lot of extended characters are pretty much immune to most sources of damage so that being tormented to low HP isn't as bad as it sounds. I've always found Shadow Fiends much worse for my undead characters.

Hellfire is 3d20 (max 60; average 32) irresistible; Dispel Undead (on the strongest enemy with it [Shadow Fiend]) is 3d27 (max 81; average 42) irresistible.
De facto it makes Gloorx Vloq very similar to Asmodeus and Dispater to you and makes Shadow Fiends a little more deadly to you than Brimstone Fiends are to everyone.
I still think it's debatable as to if the Torment immunity and Miasma immunity make up for this or not. As Dispel is beam targeted and therefore can be blocked with summons or fodder undead where s.Torment and Miasma clouds cannot.
rPois+ and rN+++ are still helpful in a lot more situations than Crypt, Gloorx Pan and Tartarus, though.

[eeviac]

And I do think, since spellcasters are so fragile (1), especially when magic skill is low and a low-skill beatstick is better: though probably worse in the long run; Monk, Zealot (except Trog) (2) and Warrior-Mage starts are the best spawn-ins to survive the early game.

1. 'Spellcasters' are not 'fragile' unless you build them that way.

2. Are you suggesting that Berserker is a bad Mu start? If so, you vastly underestimate the usefulness of Trog's Hand, BIA, and earlier weapon gifts.

[cerebovssquire]

and makes Shadow Fiends a little more deadly to you than Brimstone Fiends are to everyone.

And considering that Brimstone Fiends are more dangerous than Shadow Fiends to non-undead characters...

I still think it's debatable as to if the Torment immunity and Miasma immunity make up for this or not. As Dispel is beam targeted and therefore can be blocked with summons or fodder undead where s.Torment and Miasma clouds cannot.

Miasma is a huge factor in how dangerous Gloorx Vloq is because the resulting speed difference allows him to cast multiple dangerous spells in one turn so that things can go downhill from full HP very quickly. If he can't slow you*, you are in more control over the fight. So I don't think the difference in Gloorx's threat level for living and undead characters is that big compared to Shadow Fiends.

*or, rather, un-haste you, since you were probably hasted before he cast miasma

[bcadren]

And I do think, since spellcasters are so fragile (1), especially when magic skill is low and a low-skill beatstick is better: though probably worse in the long run; Monk, Zealot (except Trog) (2) and Warrior-Mage starts are the best spawn-ins to survive the early game.

1. 'Spellcasters' are not 'fragile' unless you build them that way.

2. Are you suggesting that Berserker is a bad Mu start? If so, you vastly underestimate the usefulness of Trog's Hand, BIA, and earlier weapon gifts.

1. On D:1, a spellbook start is very fragile compared to a melee start. You've had no chance to build anything yet. A lot of mummies lose very early. More so than other races.
2. No. I wasn't saying Trog is horrible. It's just being melee-only doesn't play to mummies strengths (lack of hunger) and starting with the lowest possible INT score is bad unless you really do plan to never use any magic (and therefore not play to the Mummy hungerless Strength at all). MuBE start stats are 18 STR/4 INT/9 DEX. Any other Zealot start is 13 STR/9 INT/9 DEX which is far more balanced for anything that does want to just use heavy armour and huge weapons. Also having any low stat is bad for mummies, because it's a lot easier to become brainless with no access to !restAbs.

EDIT:

and makes Shadow Fiends a little more deadly to you than Brimstone Fiends are to everyone.

And considering that Brimstone Fiends are more dangerous than Shadow Fiends to non-undead characters...

And all fiends except Shadow Fiends are more deadly to living characters than dead (s.Torment).

I still think it's debatable as to if the Torment immunity and Miasma immunity make up for this or not. As Dispel is beam targeted and therefore can be blocked with summons or fodder undead where s.Torment and Miasma clouds cannot.

Miasma is a huge factor in how dangerous Gloorx Vloq is because the resulting speed difference allows him to cast multiple dangerous spells in one turn so that things can go downhill from full HP very quickly. If he can't slow you*, you are in more control over the fight. So I don't think the difference in Gloorx's threat level for living and undead characters is that big compared to Shadow Fiends.

*or, rather, un-haste you, since you were probably hasted before he cast miasma

I wasn't just talking about Gloorx. I was also talking about the crypt. Being undead makes Plague Shamblers, random miasma clouds, vampires and Jiangshi weaker...but Unborn and Revenants a bit worse...Far as I know, other than Dead Swamp...nowhere else has random Miasma clouds though, not even any of the hells...

[cerebovssquire]

And all fiends except Shadow Fiends are more deadly to living characters than dead (s.Torment).

Fiends don't cast torment at all if you are undead, so this depends on the situation. If you are at full or high HP when you start fighting a Brimstone Fiend, it is probably better to be undead. If you aren't, there are HP levels where torment and hellfire are roughly equivalent, HP levels where hellfire is worse and HP levels where hellfire is lethal and torment is the last of your concerns. If you are already in a bad situation, it is much better to be living because the fiend might torment you, whereas if you are undead, you'll get hellfired and possibly die.
Against Ice Fiends, sure.

No. I wasn't saying Trog is horrible. It's just being melee-only doesn't play to mummies strengths (lack of hunger) and starting with the lowest possible INT score is bad unless you really do plan to never use any magic (and therefore not play to the Mummy hungerless Strength at all). MuBE start stats are 18 STR/4 INT/9 DEX. Any other Zealot start is 13 STR/9 INT/9 DEX which is far more balanced for anything that does want to just use heavy armour and huge weapons. Also having any low stat is bad for mummies, because it's a lot easier to become brainless with no access to !restAbs.

Lack of hunger isn't that much of a factor for character strength even if you build your character towards taking advantage of it. Characters with hunger can still cast high-hunger spells in every situation where they actually make a difference compared to low-hunger spells, mummies can cast high-hunger spells all the time. Not much of a practical difference.
You can restore yourself any time you have to after XL 13, and there is practically no stat loss before that.

[Viashino_wizard]

To be back on topic. I still don't see mummies as that weak of a species. It's just except the rPois+, none of their innate bonuses help in the early game...
Being hungerless can be huge if you are of Sif in mid-game; letting you, perse Spam Shatter instead of being able to cast it 3 times before needing food.
Having essentially lichform earlier than anything else makes doing tomb as your second or third (or even first BEFORE the rune lock was in place) a trivial affair.
Shadow Dragons, other undead and liches with their draining attacks are far less or a threat.

You're not going to have Shatter castable by midgame with -2 aptitudes. Draining is also the absolute least dangerous thing liches do, and negative energy immunity doesn't actually help against most undead enemies.

[Arrhythmia]

This is me irl. I'm jacked and dead

[NessOnett]

The main disadvantage of mummies is not aptitudes. Mummies would not become that much better even if they had Hu apts.
Also I won 4 mummies, and I never grind with them.

So if I am to understand this correctly, you want mummies to be a challenge. But you don't think that improving their aptitudes would make them much better. So then wouldn't it stand to reason that mummies could be buffed with better aptitudes and still provide a challenge?

The problem isn't that mummies are the worst species. The problem is that they are the worst species by FAR. They could get some love and still be the 'challenge' race. But actually be playable for people who like the concept of the mummy but don't have hundreds of recorded wins across tens of thousands of games.

[Sar]

They probably would still be awful enough, and I wouldn't hate a change like that much (but nor do I think it is necessary).

[NessOnett]

They probably would still be awful enough, and I wouldn't hate a change like that much (but nor do I think it is necessary).

Well that's kinda my point here. It wouldn't really affect people like you, so you shouldn't really be strongly for or against it. But I can say personally, I would be doing backflips at such a change, since mummies are among my favorite races to play(and not because I'm bad at food management), but my relative inexperience exacerbates the fact that they are so grossly underpowered.

[headcrab0803]

I guess mummies do need a buff if its going to be played seriously

I mean mummies dont have hunger clock while not losing the ability to regenerate health but thats only good when you actually scum or spam high-hunger cost magics. However the second benefit doesnt really matter since if you can actually cast these high hunger cost magics in a reasonable success rate you probably had enough exp to win the game
and the first benefit, the ability to scum is both boring and hated by the devs and players gets punished in the game for doing it
maybe mummies will be a better choice if the game had like 5 bread rations in total and starving to death was actually a thing