Proposal: Alchemist Start

[bcadren]

This is roughly a 'bring back stalkers' proposal, but I think I edited the two key spells associated with Stalking to something a bit more balanced and less abusable. I write this only after talking with devs about why stalkers were removed in the first place and thinking about what could fix those issues; BUT I still post it here first because I know it could draw flame.

I'll start by explaining the new versions of the spells:

Fulsome Distillation - Necromancy/Transmutations (1) - Very similar to original; potions of mutation are replaced with a new potion type (this is largely to remove the possibility of using the spell as an enhanced mutation roulette.)

• Normal Corpses, which have blood - Potion of Blood
• Normal Corpses, with no blood (insects, etc.) - Potion of Water
• Poisonous Corpse - Potion of Strong Poison
• Mutagenic Corpse - Potion of Chaos [Quaffing has a similar effect to sparkling fountains; selects a random potion and applies it.]
• Rot-Inducing - Potion of Decay

Evaporate - Fire/Air/Transmutations (6) - Steam clouds are produced above all water. Everything without rF (including you) takes minor damage (1d9). All potions in LoS release clouds. The number of effects this can cause is increased, but also is the cost (both in spell levels/experience and in turns in combat (no single turn clouds from this)).

• Berserk Rage - Cloud of Rage (frenzies anything that passes through it; Berserks and confuses you.)
• Water - Steam
• Paralysis - Calcifying
• Chaos - Chaos
• Heal Wounds, Curing, Cure Mut - Healing (heals 1d9 HP to everything in it)
• Poison, Confusion - Meph Cloud
• Strong Poison - Poison Cloud
• Decay, Degeneration - Miasma

Other positive potions have unique 'share effect' clouds that can be helpful or harmful.

---

Starting book for Alchemists:

• Fulsome Distillation - Necromancy/Transmutations (1)
• Sublimation of Blood - Necromancy (2)
• Summon Elemental - Transmutations (4)
• Allistair's Intoxication - Poison/Transmutations (4)
• Ignite Poison - Fire/Transmutations (5)
• Evaporate - Fire/Air/Transmutations (6)

They also start with a few potions, a bread, a cloak and a dagger.

Overall focus of Alchemy (which I still think may eventually split off from Transmutations, but needs to grow in spell count first) is to manipulate what is already in the environment and things you can pick up to help you, as opposed to changing yourself (like a transmuter) or conjuring new things from nothing (like a conjurer or summoner). Turn preexisting walls to slime/acid; trees into fire or attacking beasts; create elementals; turn water into ice instead of conjuring new ice; melt the ground (Leda's); create lava from large rocks; etc.

This is...mostly a thought for restoring the two Stalking spells without them being as OPed as they were (by adjusting the cost and getting rid of one bit of abusability) as for the hording/stash potential...it's no worse than being a Fedhasite.

[Leafsnail]

How the heck do you justify Evaporate as a 3 school level 6 spell?

e: Actually I guess with the return of Fulsome Distillation it would be pretty close to Poison Cloud.

[DracheReborn]

How the heck do you justify Evaporate as a 3 school level 6 spell?

e: Actually I guess with the return of Fulsome Distillation it would be pretty close to Poison Cloud.

Indeed, it probably should be higher than level 6 since PCloud is just one of its many effects.

Aside from balance, Fulsome is problematic because it encouraged you to turn corpses (which are temporary) into consumables (which are permanent). Your proposal doesn't address that at all. At minimum all potions created by FD should decay like !blood, at which point the spell becomes a fancier version of Corpse Rot.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Fulsome Distillation is a really bad spell that should not exist.

Evaporate is cool but extremely hard to make balanced.

[dck]

Wow, so these alchemists would start with FD and thus should start making potions right away (because at least you want as much water as you can get your hands on if you plan to use evap), yet those potions would be literally nothing more than dead weight until they got to start using a triple school, level six spell; this is leaving aside the fact every single spell in the book is quite literal useless garbage for anyone who started with it except for the annoying and tenuous link between two spells with enormous level disparity.

Let me put it this way:
You're James McFist, the Alchemist. You start out with a book that you can benefit in absolutely no way from unless you happen to run into several other spells and with a cloak and a dagger.
What would you, James McFist, do in such a case? Wouldn't you think "woah this book is a piece of junk where is my blowgun" pretty much right away? Exactly how is the book going to make even the least bit of difference between life and death, other than joining trog and using it to kill the first bad thing you see?

[and into]

[My take on a different kind of "mage" start that uses transmutations that are mostly non-form, and zero offense-oriented forms.]

Tinkerer:

Mage class. Starts with a book of morphing. Two levels spell casting, one level of hexes and three of transmutations. Some dodging and stealth. Begins with temporary deformation memorized.

Book of Morphing

* = New spells explained below
** = Recommended change to existing spell.

Temporary Deformation (Tmut/Hexes lvl 1)*
Sticks to Snakes (Tmut lvl 2)
Polymorph (Tmut lvl 3)**
Chameleon Skin (Tmut/Charms lvl 3)*
Spontaneous Devolution (Tmut/Hexes lvl 5)*
Animate Construct (Tmut lvl 6)*

Temp deformation checks MR of target, if they fail the check they take some damage and are slowed and weakened for a short period of time. Does not stack—can only be used against an enemy when they are currently free of deformation, and haven't been affected by deformation for a while (cf. ensorcelled hibernation).

Chameleon Skin has a spell power-based chance to cause any nonadjacent enemy to lose track of you while it is active. However you cannot attack in any way while in this form.

Spontaneous Devolution is an upgraded polymorph that guarantees that the new creature the target morphs into will be at a substantially reduced HD than the original.

Animate construct sacrifices inanimate material to build a golem. Upon casting, the spell destroys dig-able walls around you randomly, and creates an extremely loud noise. If insufficient material is present the spell cannot be cast. You can only have one golem at a time. Golem is immune to abjuration and doesn't time out, but does not regenerate. Casting animate construct when you already have a golem will create a new one. Golem is average speed; the golem's HD, damage, AC, and life depend upon spell power.

** Make polymorph pure tmut lvl 3 rather than lvl 4 tmut/hexes.

[Igxfl]

Fulsome Distillation has a lot of problems, but Evaporate could be pretty interesting if there weren't an infinite source of potions for it. It wouldn't even have to be level 6 triple school because of the inbuilt limit.

Let's say Evaporate is an evocable rather than a spell, and we bring in Alchemists as a third Adventurer background.

An alchemist gets:

-- rod of evaporation
-- +0 robe
-- one potion of poison/confusion/whatever

Bad potions become a critical early resource that the Alchemist uses to compensate for a lack of book, just like the Assassin currently does with curare. It won't feel scummy like old Stalker did, because potions remain a limited resource, and the scarcity of bad potions will make for interesting consumable management in the early game. An evoker Alchemist would keep the directionless flexibility that was interesting in Stalkers, though -- an Alchemist character starts with a strong tool for the early game and has to use that advantage to adapt into a solid mid-game build before that advantage loses its reliability.

Most importantly, this background would give its own distinct feel to the early game. We have a lot of characters that come out spamming a lvl 1 spell, and a lot of characters that start by just hitting things, but only Artificer (and kind of Assassin) have really explored the design space of a low-power build reliant on a valuable but limited tool.

[KoboldLord]

The only way I could see the FD/Evap mechanic coming back is as part of a god slot. It's completely unworkable as a spell, but not so bad if you have to give up Trog powers for it. Even more important would be eliminating the tedium of converting corpses, though; I'd probably go for an automatic instant corpse conversion that doubles as a no-chunk-eating mandatory conduct. Converted potions would then be goldified so they wouldn't cause any inventory management issues. Because the old inventory management issues were obscene.

[dpeg]

Hey, three really good ideas in here: and_into's Tinkerer mage background, Igxfl's Alchemist adventurer background and KoboldLord's potion god could all work, in my opinion. I'd suggest to focus on the Alchemist with a rod of evaporation, for two reason: besides what Igxfl correctly says, the Tinkerer spells are more work, and the god proposal is a mere shadow.

[sgrunt]

[...]the god proposal is a mere shadow.

And we already have a shadow god.

[khalil]

I'll be honest, I'm surprised by how many good ideas came out of this thread. Normally when I see "Put back in thing I liked that was removed because it gave people ebola", I assume it'll be almost as bad as one of my threads.

[bcadren]

Actually -a god- was one of my first ideas to replace Fulsome. Just a god that gives potions straight up though...with Evaporate back, but very limited ammo without that god. Though I don't know that that would be worth it; unless the god did a lot more than just give potions (at least as much as Okawaru/Trog); though I'd be leaning towards Fedhas level of usefulness.

I do think even with Fulsome restored; the inventory problem isn't as bad as an evoker-specialist (wands and evokers taking up more than half the slots) or Fedhas Madash (14 fruit slots)...and roughly equal to being an archer (5 slots for different arrow brands) and scummability is comparable to corpses -> Piety with most gods. A little more with inventory weight, but if that's removed...roughly equal.

Also I'd had a similar thought to the golems; though my thought was similar to a stronger Summon Elemental (target a specific tile): {tree -> Wood Golem; rock -> Clay Golem; Pandemonium Wall -> Toenail Golem; Stone -> Stone Golem; steel -> Iron Golem; Green Crystal -> Crystal Golem}. Noisy as shatter just as useable to shatter ninja...though takes just as high Earth/Transmutations spell power to crack anything higher than wood/rock/pandemonium. Not sure which version is better...REGARDLESS it is bringing back a deleted enemy (or multiple) to be summon-only.

I really like Spontaneous Devolution. It's between Polymorph and Cigotuvi's...where the former isn't powerful enough and Cigotuvi's was too powerful; makes an interesting middle ground. Maybe put Cigotuvi's Name back into it? Cigotuvi's Devolution.

Also I'm REALLY for a rod start coming back, but I'm not sure the whole...very rarely useful but powerful when it is rod I'm not sure is best. Though if that was a rod, I'd go for no mana limit, since you are using potions as your ammo...unless it did minimal damage through beam target, 'boiling blood' or generate steam from water, which are both swiss army knife use.

[Tiktacy]

Fulsome Distillation has a lot of problems, but Evaporate could be pretty interesting if there weren't an infinite source of potions for it. It wouldn't even have to be level 6 triple school because of the inbuilt limit.

Let's say Evaporate is an evocable rather than a spell, and we bring in Alchemists as a third Adventurer background.

An alchemist gets:

-- rod of evaporation
-- +0 robe
-- one potion of poison/confusion/whatever

Bad potions become a critical early resource that the Alchemist uses to compensate for a lack of book, just like the Assassin currently does with curare. It won't feel scummy like old Stalker did, because potions remain a limited resource, and the scarcity of bad potions will make for interesting consumable management in the early game. An evoker Alchemist would keep the directionless flexibility that was interesting in Stalkers, though -- an Alchemist character starts with a strong tool for the early game and has to use that advantage to adapt into a solid mid-game build before that advantage loses its reliability.

Most importantly, this background would give its own distinct feel to the early game. We have a lot of characters that come out spamming a lvl 1 spell, and a lot of characters that start by just hitting things, but only Artificer (and kind of Assassin) have really explored the design space of a low-power build reliant on a valuable but limited tool.

This is probably the best idea for a new class type I have ever seen on these forums. I kinda throw compliments out a lot just to keep things positive, but I really think deserves some attention(and it appears I'm not the only one who thinks so).

And into's tinkerer idea is pretty neat too. I would like to see that in the near future as well.

[and into]

Small additional recommendations/questions regarding Igxfl's proposal:

I'd recommend Alchemist starts with all bad potions identified, and probably should start with at least two or three potion types. Maybe something like 2 confusion, 1 poison, 1 water [edit nevermind]. (Makes it a bit interesting, you have a few different effects and get to see what at least three different potions do when evaporated.) Unlike previous evaporation spell, perhaps just make it so that good potions simply can't be used ("Evaporating this potion would not have any effect.")

Does evocations have any role aside from success of casting evaporation via rod? What should the required evocation be—around same for flight? Should evocations have an effect on average length of clouds?

[reaver]

Why do people in this thread keep mentioning potions of water like they weren't removed? (and I don't think they're likely to come back, even if they gain a new use.)

[and into]

Why do people in this thread keep mentioning potions of water like they weren't removed? (and I don't think they're likely to come back, even if they gain a new use.)

Because nostalgia.

Because some wounds don't heal right away, man.

Because some of us are still coming to terms with the removal of potions of water, okay?

[TeshiAlair]

Let's simplify this.

Volatile Distillation:

Selects a potion in your inventory. Transmutes it into a volatile form, which you then can either drink or throw at an enemy. (Use on self to drink).

Volatile potions work like regular potions- each kind is given a random description, and once you've ID'd one, you then recognize it. To avoid being too spoilery, the potions generally have similar effects to their base types.

NOTE: This is wildly unbalanced, and almost certainly better as a god idea.

Source: cure mutation, curing, heal wounds, resistance
Potion of holy water: Curing when used on self (damage if undead or demonspawn), single target holy word on enemy.
Potion of light: Corona on target.
Potion of temporary vigor: Massive HP boost to target, but slow/exhausts afterwards, similar to berserk.

Source: beneficial mutation, mutation, lignification, degeneration
Potion of change: Massive glow and evolve when used on self, polymorph when used on enemy.
Potion of Xom: Chaos cloud on target.
Potion of slime: Acid damage on target

Source: agility, flight, speed, invisibility
Potion of energy: Haste and blinkitis on target.
Potion of quantum displacement: +EV and repel missiles on target
Potion of twitchiness: Target's attacks can hit any enemy in range

Source: paralysis, poison, strong poison, decay
Potion of nightshade: +Regen, torments target
Potion of venom: Mix of mephetic and poison clouds around target
Potion of nightmares: blind, invisible, paralyses, and puts fog around target.

Source: berserk rage, blood, confusion, might
Potion of boiling blood: rage with no +hp or +damage, but heal on kill to self. Just rage on enemy cast (similar to needles of frenzy)
Potion of hallucination: Acidrobin
Potion of aggressive growth: +2 str and +2 dex mutations, rank 2 deterioration, rank 2 fast metabolism

Source: brilliance, experience, magic
Potion of the elements: ++rF, ++rC, +rElec, and +4 ac. On enemy, deals random elemental damage
Potion of inebriation: -1/2 mana, -3 int on self. On enemy, confuses.
Potion of inner strength: Ashenzari-like stat boost on self. On enemy, acts as might + agility potions

Source: porridge
Potion of fertilizer: On self, lignification, but with oklob spit attack. On enemy, spawns plants and bushes around them.


#ThreeAMIdeas

[DracheReborn]

Fulsome Distillation has a lot of problems, but Evaporate could be pretty interesting if there weren't an infinite source of potions for it. It wouldn't even have to be level 6 triple school because of the inbuilt limit.

Let's say Evaporate is an evocable rather than a spell, and we bring in Alchemists as a third Adventurer background.

An alchemist gets:

-- rod of evaporation
-- +0 robe
-- one potion of poison/confusion/whatever

Bad potions become a critical early resource that the Alchemist uses to compensate for a lack of book, just like the Assassin currently does with curare. It won't feel scummy like old Stalker did, because potions remain a limited resource, and the scarcity of bad potions will make for interesting consumable management in the early game. An evoker Alchemist would keep the directionless flexibility that was interesting in Stalkers, though -- an Alchemist character starts with a strong tool for the early game and has to use that advantage to adapt into a solid mid-game build before that advantage loses its reliability.

Most importantly, this background would give its own distinct feel to the early game. We have a lot of characters that come out spamming a lvl 1 spell, and a lot of characters that start by just hitting things, but only Artificer (and kind of Assassin) have really explored the design space of a low-power build reliant on a valuable but limited tool.

Very nice! Minor quibble though - there's already a rod of clouds, so that can get confused with this one. Also, rods need to be wielded and have charges, which may not apply for this item. Suggestion: call it a "crucible of evaporation" instead, and have it work like other evokables.

There being limited ammo for this item I think allows it to have stronger effects. For example, clouds can be generated in a line instead of a 3x3 cloud. This further differentiates it from other cloud sources.

Agreed with and_into that this background should start with a few bad potion types, at the very least confusion, poison, and paralysis. For usage, I'd say evoking the crucible would just prompt you for the allowed potion types in your inventory (so if we don't want to allow good potions, they simply won't show up when prompted for a potion).

I don't think new potion types just to support this item is a good idea, though.