Spider Variety Brainstorm

[bcadren]

Every (normal) lair branch except Spider recently got new monsters [Snake got new Salamander and Naga Variants and a guardian serpent buff; Shoals got Manticores buffed, Wind Drakes and Water Nymphs and Swamps got several kinds of Spriggans and the Treant (Shambling Mangrove) (later two groups being leftovers from forest).] I think it's time Spider got some more variety; especially since every other branch is at least stronger and has at least two elements of attacks. [Spider is near pure poison.]

Snakes is Poison/Fire with a little Electric and some plain ranged attacks.
Shoals is mostly ranged attacks, water against you, a little poison and ice.
Swamp is mostly poison, vampiric with a little ice and a lot of random elements in endings.

Spider's combination of confusion and poison melee ENSNARE and OOD spammers is unique; but very monotone compared to the other branches, as well.

I wanted to start a threat to brainstorm some ideas for more spider monster variety.

fire ant (a) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 35-63 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 18(fire:18-36) | !sil | Res: magic(36) | Vul: poison, ice | Chunks: poison | XP: 463 | Sp: fireball (3d17) | Sz: Medium | Int: insect.

Literal ant of fire; rather than an ant that injects acid that feels like fire...Been suggested a lot; but it's not horrible.

fire ant (a) | Spd: 12 | HD: 9 | HP: 35-63 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 18(acid:18-36) | Res: magic(36) | Vul: poison, ice | Chunks: poison | XP: 463 | Sz: Medium | Int: insect.

More like the real world; acid melee insect.

tunneling spider (s) | Spd: 12 | HD: 8 | HP: 28-59 | AC/EV: 13/4 | Dam:25 (acid:16-28) | !sil | Res: magic(32) | Vul: poison | Chunks: poison | XP: 197 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) | Sz: Large | Int: insect.

Burrows like a boring beetle, but faster than average (hard to escape) with acid spit (same as Oklobs and acid blobs).

desiccated corpse (M) | Spd: 8 | HD: 11 | HP: 58-82 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Dam: 25, 4 (hunger) | undead, doors, evil, spellcaster | Res: magic(40), cold, poison+++, rot, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy++, fire | Chunks: rot | XP: 598 | Sp: b.dry (3d14), slow, vampiric draining, raise dead, agony | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

The body of a previous adventurer, who had their internal tissues liquidized and sucked out by spiders while still alive; creating a very tortured mummy. Their time in the world is limited; as they have a bunch of spider eggs living on what's left of their body. B.dry is non-elemental, which checks 1/2 AC and causes hunger. On death, evokes a sack of spiders twice.

Adding some silent specters or a moth with similar effect into the rotation would also have an interesting effect, since all spider spellcasters have !sil.

MORE IDEAS are very welcome.

[duvessa]

the response to adding a bunch of monsters should not be to add EVEN MORE monsters jesus christ infinite recursion is not good game design

[bcadren]

That's not really why. The new monsters added variety and difficulty to the other branches. Spider is almost as monotonous as slime or tomb. It needs more variety to be interesting as a branch. I halfway think you're just attacking because it's me though. Spider and tomb are about the worst branches IMHO mostly because there's not enough variety to be interesting.

Slime is close; but since 99.9% of people just dive it it's more bearable.

[Igxfl]

I have no opinion about the level of monster variety in Spider, but please no more acid in the main game.

[KoboldLord]

Spider has had the obnoxious orb spiders and tarantellae everywhere for as long as it's been around, and ghost moths are horrible even though they're rare. It recently picked up formicid enemies, with their stupid large shields. Then there are the fifteen thousand web traps. The other branches got an extra helping of obnoxiousness from the remains of Forest, but this only let them catch up a bit. Spider already has a perfectly adequate supply.

[Hirsch I]

everytime I visit the tavern I leave under the impression that noone likes the game.

[Grimm]

I halfway think you're just attacking because it's me though

But you're me.

[twelwe]

I halfway think you're just attacking because it's me though.

Well you are making about three new idea threads a day now. Do you really expect them all to be slam dunks? Have any of them been implemented? Maybe slow down and refine a few ideas then post maybe one good one

[Patashu]

everytime I visit the tavern I leave under the impression that noone likes the game.

IMO a game needs to annoy you in order to have something worth overcoming and mastering - by definition, a game with nothing annoying can't be lost. It's just a question of what and how much.

[reaver]

everytime I visit the tavern I leave under the impression that noone likes the game.

IMO a game needs to annoy you in order to have something worth overcoming and mastering - by definition, a game with nothing annoying can't be lost. It's just a question of what and how much.

There's a difference between the kind of annoying which makes you grind your teeth and try again and the kind of annoying which makes you want to stab the developers.

I don't think the Lair branches have reached that point, but I realize this is one of the most subjective things about game design.

[TeshiAlair]

The OP I think is right though. At least in my experience, Spider is about a billion times easier than Snake, and also far more annoying. I think a better approach to making things interesting would be a pretty big overhaul. My thought would be to make it a big hive of minivaults. So, rather than an infinite stream of essentially popcorn, you get a room with orb weavers behind web lines and some jumping spiders, or maybe a pack of scorpions led by an emperor scorpion.

[tasonir]

I wouldn't mind a new monster or two, but I definitely don't want anything breathing acid at me in spider. Please don't make rCorr important, you generally don't have it by then and I don't want to lose 4 AC or have gear swaps just for doing spider.

Do demonic crawlers still have acid attacks? I think they can corrode, but they're melee only and generally die pretty quick, been a while since I've had any corrosion from one.

[Sar]

I don't remember them ever having acid attacks. Maybe you are confusing them with spiny worms? Those were removed recently.

[khalil]

IMO a game needs to annoy you in order to have something worth overcoming and mastering - by definition, a game with nothing annoying can't be lost. It's just a question of what and how much.

It depends. I Wanna Be the Guy isn't annoying, but it is hilarious.
For those who haven't played IWBtG, it's the exact opposite of crawl. Twitch based, and very unfair with lots of deaths coming out of the blue, but still possible because there's save points every screen. At one point there's this huge, extremely difficult platforming section, and right after you finish the moon falls on you because reasons. That should set the general tone.

[tasonir]

I don't remember them ever having acid attacks. Maybe you are confusing them with spiny worms? Those were removed recently.

That sounds likely. Good to know there's no corrosion in spider then, let's keep it that way

[bcadren]

Well you are making about three new idea threads a day now. Do you really expect them all to be slam dunks? Have any of them been implemented? Maybe slow down and refine a few ideas then post maybe one good one

Off the top of my head; I know that my suggestion to let all demons open doors (really minor thing) was implemented and I had an idea bout redoing a lot of Throwing skill stuff...it wasn't implemented, but discussion caused by it resulted in Tomahawks. [Tomahawks were among a longer list of new throwing ammo ideas listed.] The former was a REALLY long time ago though; first time I was here then disappeared.

[Viashino_wizard]

Spider could definitely use an overhaul. Once you have rPois, there's not a lot that's really hard: besides certain enemies (Orb Spiders, Emperor Scorpions, Ghost Moths, whatever uniques spawn) the only real danger is getting swarmed while webbed or confused. Something interesting that occurs to me: if fire ants (the version that literally breathes fire) were added, that would make Spider slightly more like Snake, being a poison-focused branch with a secondary Fire threat. Whether that's desirable or not is another matter, of course.

[Hirsch I]

there could be a spider that burns webs, leaving you webbed in a fire cloud.