Tavern bullies

[damiac]

This forum has a very simple set of rules. This is the first, most important rule:
Do not harass or insult other users. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Now, there are two very prominent members of this forum to whom apparently this rule doesn't apply. I think many people are afraid to post their honest opinions here after seeing so many others verbally torn apart by those two members, and the level of discourse would significantly improve if people didn't have to fear insults and harassment. On top of that, their caustic attitudes and statements constantly derail useful discussions, as people have to abandon the original discussion to defend themselves from these insults.

All I am asking is that this rule be enforced. Everyone knows who I'm talking about, and giving occasional good advice shouldn't excuse anyone from following the rules.

[Abominae]

I don't know who you are talking about.

[Confidence Interval]

I don't know who you are talking about.

Interesting problem. Anyone naming specific people might themselves be accused of harassment.

[TeshiAlair]

I completely agree with you (and was actually going to make a similar topic myself), but I also think there are ways we can bring new posters up to speed.

Linking to threads and devwiki pages on a number of frequently brought up topics (Humans, item destruction, poison magic, ally gods), technical details (Damage calculation, skill effects, AC) that trip new players up, and examples of good proposals (Dithmengos, Formicids) should ease people in and get them familiar with the history of GDD, which is where most of the drama seems to happen.

[WalkerBoh]

If you have complaints, it would be more efficient and mature to handle it privately with a moderator or the people you have an issue with. This thread won't lead to anything good.

[damiac]

Maybe it will serve anyone who reads it and thinks "Oh yeah I guess I shouldn't insult people". I just want to point out a problem I see, and just hitting the report button a couple of times won't accomplish that. Calling specific people out by name would fall under harassment I think, and hell, I could probably be accused of the same thing, that's the problem. The caustic attitude spreads, and it's making the tavern a worse place. I think any post with an insult in it should be deleted on the spot, and the user messaged to inform them.

You can disagree with someone without saying "You're an idiot" or "You aren't qualified to give advice". In fact, your argument will be more effective if you don't say things like that.

[Sar]

"You're an idiot" or "You aren't qualified to give advice"

You really don't see the difference between those? Really-really?

Edit: also, I am Spartacus.

[damiac]

I see them as both being personal attacks. Yes, they're different, but both could be covered by "I disagree", which is how they're generally used.

But, eh, maybe I'm oversensitive. Now I'll go make a new account called "Prck" and share my feelings on whether or not I feel people are qualified to give advice with terse statements and no explanation. Or maybe "Insuffrable Asshle", something along those lines.

[dck]

It stands for dicksman.

[Abominae]

It's super interesting that you are highly offended by these 'personal insults and harassment,' yet this thread and multiple posts of yours are some of the worst offenses of this I have seen to date on these forums. I'm of the opinion your reactions are a larger problem than the occasional condescending remark.

[Sar]

So, I can't criticize bad advice because it offends peoples' feelings? Better just say "I disagree but hey, it's just my opinion, everybody has a right to have one, if someone thinks this strategy is good, who am I to contradict anyway!"? Don't you think it kind of defeats the purpose of advice forum, of guides?

[WalkerBoh]

Maybe it will serve anyone who reads it and thinks "Oh yeah I guess I shouldn't insult people".

The intersection of the set of people who make insulting posts and the set of people who would change their behavior because of your post, is an empty set.

I just want to point out a problem I see, and just hitting the report button a couple of times won't accomplish that.

No, that's exactly what hitting report accomplishes. If the mods choose not to act based on your reports, it probably means they don't see anything wrong and you need to thicken your skin.

[Klown]

Tavern bullying(by those who can't comprehend a strategy outside of hastespam) is the #1 reason someone leaves the game. And since they're the victims, they're most likely genius programmers who could contribute.

In conclusion, all bullies should get a life, be banned, and stop hurting the game.

[Sar]

by those who can't comprehend a strategy outside of hastespam

[cerebovssquire]

hastespam, the strategy where you spam haste and then walk around blowing up monsters with contam explosions

[dck]

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/dck/morgue- ... 013205.txt

[Viashino_wizard]

"You aren't qualified to give advice".

Considering dck is a former dev, you'll have a pretty hard time finding someone better qualified to evaluate a person's understanding of crawl.

[twelwe]

Tavern bullying(by those who can't comprehend a strategy outside of hastespam) is the #1 reason someone leaves the game. And since they're the victims, they're most likely genius programmers who could contribute.

In conclusion, all bullies should get a life, be banned, and stop hurting the game.

#1 reason? where is this background information you've collected? do you, perhaps, have a survey you've conducted over the years that outlines this information?

Maybe we should look at some real information on people leaving the game:

http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/wp-co ... ummary.pdf

  Code:

379 30.5% I’d love to play, but I just don’t find the time.
315 25.3% I just sort of lost interest.
297 23.9% N/A
135 10.9% The game is too frustrating/hard for me.
40  3.2%  I’ve found another roguelike I like better.
35  2.8%  No reason to continue playing after I beat the game.
35  2.8%  The game stopped being fun when a certain feature was added/changed/removed.
5   0.4%  I need better graphics in my games.
3   0.2%  It’s simply not my kind of game.


Your "people who leave the game" (I think you meant people who leave the forum but online everyone takes everything literally and ingore the people who can't be bothered to type out what they mean) could, at best, fall under the N/A section and, assuming 100% of those people who gave specific answers were trolloled into leaving, which it isn't, but lets say it was, that would be the 3rd reason for them leaving. And it isn't. Additionally:

"Just after the release of 0.10, players were understandably still sore about the removal of the Mountain Dwarf (which was mentioned 30 times)"

...And those were the people who wrote some of the craziest internet discussion words directed at people who changed bits of code in a free online computer game then, after depositing those words forever into the annals of the timeless machine of congregated fools, judges, and idiots we collectively call the internet, decided to storm off FOREVER, NEVER TO RETURN, that is, until they decided to make a thread about imaginary video game dwarves months later to assure everyone that, yes, some things are never truly forgotten online.

The idea that good behavior itself and a perpetual conflict free environment can be somehow forced upon humans on a discussion forum is silly. yes, people try to make rules. yes, they fail when they enforce them. for christ's sake, grimm is still an administrator here. nothing is going to change, just accept it and move on with your lives, and stop making ridiculous claims like knowing what the "#1 reason" for anything is when the truth is you're just making a silly emotional argument.

[damiac]

So, I can't criticize bad advice because it offends peoples' feelings? Better just say "I disagree but hey, it's just my opinion, everybody has a right to have one, if someone thinks this strategy is good, who am I to contradict anyway!"? Don't you think it kind of defeats the purpose of advice forum, of guides?

No, not at all. You can say whatever you want about the advice, about what's wrong with it, and everything. You can't insult the person giving the advice.
So there's nothing really wrong with saying "This really seems like bad advice to me", but there is something wrong when you say "This person isn't good enough to give advice". You're totally correct in pointing out an advice board would be worthless if you can't disagree with other people's advice, but there's no need to make it personal.

And none of this is about me personally being insulted. I tend to mostly ask questions, I don't give a whole lot of advice. I tend to engage in theorycraft about wildly non-standard tactics, which I find interesting. Usually I jump in when I see other people being insulted, and that's the only reason there's friction between me and other forum members. I don't like seeing people bullied, and I think that attitude is getting worse on these forums, where if you dare say anything that isn't supported by the current groupthink, a bunch of likeminded people come out of the woodwork and jump all over you. There's enough room for disagreement without unpleasantness.

[WalkerBoh]

This thread won't lead to anything good.

Statement rescinded.

[twelwe]

So, I can't criticize bad advice because it offends peoples' feelings? Better just say "I disagree but hey, it's just my opinion, everybody has a right to have one, if someone thinks this strategy is good, who am I to contradict anyway!"? Don't you think it kind of defeats the purpose of advice forum, of guides?

No, not at all. You can say whatever you want about the advice, about what's wrong with it, and everything. You can't insult the person giving the advice.
So there's nothing really wrong with saying "This really seems like bad advice to me", but there is something wrong when you say "This person isn't good enough to give advice". You're totally correct in pointing out an advice board would be worthless if you can't disagree with other people's advice, but there's no need to make it personal.

And none of this is about me personally being insulted. I tend to mostly ask questions, I don't give a whole lot of advice. I tend to engage in theorycraft about wildly non-standard tactics, which I find interesting. Usually I jump in when I see other people being insulted, and that's the only reason there's friction between me and other forum members. I don't like seeing people bullied, and I think that attitude is getting worse on these forums, where if you dare say anything that isn't supported by the current groupthink, a bunch of likeminded people come out of the woodwork and jump all over you. There's enough room for disagreement without unpleasantness.

Amatuer painters do not host seminars. If they did they would be laughed at. People would demand refunds. Getting free advice on the internet is even worse. Go type "acetaminophen and alcohol" and you can see quality of the advice of non-professionals is contributing towards the #1 reason of liver failure in the United States. People should criticize free advice on the internet given by amatuer, at worst it can cause liver failure and at best it can cause your internet video game character to die earlier than it would already

[dck]

Considering dck is a former dev

a former what

[twelwe]

free internet advice:



dont anyone insult this person they are just giving out an opinion, better to say "i disagree with you but respect your opinion happy crawling"

[Viashino_wizard]

Considering dck is a former dev

a former what

Weren't you a developer at one point? Or am I mistaken about that.

Tavern bullying(by those who can't comprehend a strategy outside of hastespam) is the #1 reason someone leaves the game. And since they're the victims, they're most likely genius programmers who could contribute.

In conclusion, all bullies should get a life, be banned, and stop hurting the game.

#1 reason? where is this background information you've collected? do you, perhaps, have a survey you've conducted over the years that outlines this information

I assumed Klown was being facetious, but then again I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[twelwe]

dck is the former dev i used to online date

[Sar]

I don't think I ever said Psiweapon (because we are talking about his guide and the resulting fallout here) is not fit to write a guide, though now that I think of it and after I read the guide and his replies to criticism, I would. I don't think saying that is particularly insulting - writing a decent guide requires a lot of Crawl experience, which is essentially a lot of time wasted on a completely meaningless thing! Anyway, I'd like to hear if he himself considers my words to be insulting, instead of talking to somebody I apparently insulted by proxy.

Edit: THE PLOT THICKENS

[damiac]

Wow, I really didn't think the idea of not insulting people was seen as so crazy and wrong.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with saying "This is really bad advice". As opposed to "This guy is too dumb to give advice".

If everyone thinks I'm wrong, then why don't you change the forum rules? As it stands now, personal attacks and insults are against the rules. If you think the absence of personal attacks and insults would ruin the forum, then maybe you should get rid of that rule.

[Sar]

So now it went from "This guy doesn't have enough experience" to "This guy is dumb", neat.

[Laraso]

Well damaic, you really need to understand there is a fundamental difference between insulting someone just for the sake of insulting them and criticizing them for doing something wrong. You're completely misinterpreting this whole thing as some sort of hate crime or bullying attack, when it's simply not the case.

Telling someone that they shouldn't be giving advice because their advice is bad -- is a good thing
Criticizing someone for not listening to those people and giving advice anyway -- is good thing

As it turns out, not criticizing people for giving bad advice and pretending like all advice is good advice worth hearing -- is a bad thing, and it's the reason why the wiki is so messed up in the first place
And it doesn't come as a surprise that the location in which his guide is located -- is on the wiki

I just recently made a thread about the wiki and why I believe we should fix it, so personally it really annoys me when I see people writing new "guides" like this after being explicitly told not to, posting them to the wiki, and then advertising it to everyone. No, I do not believe anything needs to be done about this, I believe Psiweapon needs to learn to not just take criticism but listen to it and not give bad advice, and wait until he actually understands the game correctly before trying to write a guide about it.

[Viashino_wizard]

Wow, I really didn't think the idea of not insulting people was seen as so crazy and wrong.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with saying "This is really bad advice". As opposed to "This guy is too dumb to give advice".

If everyone thinks I'm wrong, then why don't you change the forum rules? As it stands now, personal attacks and insults are against the rules. If you think the absence of personal attacks and insults would ruin the forum, then maybe you should get rid of that rule.

From where I'm standing the problem is that you're using a really broad definition of what constitutes a personal attack. At least, you're assigning intentions to people's words that aren't actually there.

[damiac]

Sar, I wasn't thinking of anything you said, I don't know why you're taking it as being about something you said.

Here's the blanket version:
OK: "This is terrible, terrible advice, and would kill anyone who followed it, because..."

Not ok: "You aren't qualified to give advice"

One is an attack on the bad advice itself. The other is an attack against a person (A.K.A. a "personal attack")

I don't know why you're being defensive about this, as if it's targeted at you Sar, I didn't have you in mind at all when I wrote this. And although the Psiweapon thread is a good example of someone being insulted, that's not what prompted this at all.

[twelwe]

Wow, I really didn't think the idea of not insulting people was seen as so crazy and wrong.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with saying "This is really bad advice". As opposed to "This guy is too dumb to give advice".

If everyone thinks I'm wrong, then why don't you change the forum rules? As it stands now, personal attacks and insults are against the rules. If you think the absence of personal attacks and insults would ruin the forum, then maybe you should get rid of that rule.

if everyone thinks you're wrong, maybe you should accept you adopted a false premise instead of demanding xxxxxx happens as a consequence of your mistake

[Sar]

I just don't think saying somebody is not qualified to write a guide about a fairly complex game a personal attack, sorry.

[dck]

a former what

Weren't you a developer at one point? Or am I mistaken about that.

I've never been one of them.

[Tiktacy]

Any valiant effort to create peace in the tavern will end in you being shit on by a bunch of nerds who have no problems spending an hour looking through your posts to find dirt on you.

That is all.

[twelwe]

Any valiant effort to create peace in the tavern will end in you being shit on by a bunch of nerds who have no problems spending an hour looking through your posts to find dirt on you.

That is all.

playing magic and calling other people nerds does not work. all i had to do was look at your sig, didn't spend much time, so i must be awesome for spending a low amount of time on the internet replying to you

[duvessa]

OK: "This is terrible, terrible advice, and would kill anyone who followed it, because..."

Not ok: "You aren't qualified to give advice"

Suppose someone shows up for a job interview for a high-level engineering position, and their résumé says they dropped out of high school and smoke weed every day. Would you consider it a personal attack to tell them that they are unqualified?

[One-Eyed Jack]

I don't fully understand how holier-than-thou soapbox call-outs are supposed to be foster "peace"

[damiac]

I don't fully understand how holier-than-thou soapbox call-outs are supposed to be foster "peace"

I'd rather they foster "enforcement of the rules". If people got a message from an admin saying "Hey, don't insult people" that'd probably do the trick most of the time.

And this is an internet forum for a free videogame, not a job interview. This is a game, not liver cancer. On top of that, we do not present resumes when we sign up on this forum, so I don't anyone here is qualified to judge other people's qualifications to give advice.

Who am I holier than? As plenty of people have pointed out, I may be just as bad as the people I'm accusing. That doesn't change the fact that this would be a better forum if the personal insults were cut out.

[Klown]

[tedric]

@damiac, I think your heart is in the right place and you've done an admirable job of criticizing behavior rather than people in this thread.

But dude: this is the Internet. People are sometimes jerks on the Internet. Asking jerks to be less jerky usually just encourages them to be more jerky, because now they know it's working.

If someone is a jerk to you, report it to the mods and ignore that person. If the forum is so full of jerks that you can't stand it anymore, stop coming here.

Everyone who visits this forum is capable of doing the same. You don't need to defend them.

[Laraso]

I don't understand what job interviews and liver cancer have to do with anything. You don't have to have a resume to criticize someone. Bad advice is bad advice, simple as that. "You're not qualified to give advice" is not a personal insult, it means that he shouldn't be giving advice because his advice is not good.

[reaver]

I don't think the caustic tone of the Tavern is a good thing, but I don't think it's something that will be changed very easily. I try not to (although I may not always succeed) be caustic unless:

A) Somebody has obviously not internalized the basic design philosophy, as is the case with too many GDD proposals.
B) I believe somebody else may be harmed or deluded by false information present, as was the case with the wiki guide.

In which cause a harsh tone acts as an emphasis similar to placing things in bold font.

Another reason I believe some people are aggressive is that it's just easier to write a blunt post than a friendly one. Normally I have to go over my posts twice: Once for a "rough draft" which may be unforgivably rude but gets the message across and again to make the tone friendly.

[Sandman25]

Some people are too aggressive and cannot control themselves sometimes (maybe because of being drunk or something, I am not sure). I tried private messages, I tried reporting to admins (thread got locked but who cares). Nothing will help unfortunately but that's ok, I am getting used to being called an idiot like I am getting used to watching a 3-months person making his natural business without taking pants off. When they are not drunk, they are nice and clever people

[Klown]

it means that he shouldn't be giving advice because his advice is not good.

The point is, who are you to say it's bad? Especially when the players giving the advice have -more- wins than you. If you disagree, you can say so and why. But let the advice-asker listen to who they want and find out for themselves which was the good advice or the bad advice.

[twelwe]

The point is, who are you to say it's bad? Especially when the players giving the advice have -more- wins than you. If you disagree, you can say so and why. But let the advice-asker listen to who they want and find out for themselves which was the good advice or the bad advice.

I hate this. "here are the facts. Here are the opinions. Here is the mindless drivel. Judge for yourself." Such a stupid thing, it encourages idiocy. The tea party in the USA has a big "Trust no one, judge reality for yourself" problem that is escorting the rise of creationism being taught in southern schools, as an "alternative" to evolution. All because of mistrust, and people being encouraged to ignore the facts and just "think for yourself." "find out for themselves which was the good advice or the bad advice" is a TERRIBLE idea, on any level, whether its video games where you have several hours invested into each character, or taking pain releivers. Again, I quote:



"find out for themselves" is a terrible, terrible way to encourage people to carry out their lives. God I hate libertarians.

[Sar]

The snozzcumbers come off as very ignorant and one dimensional players who simply don't have the brainpower to comprehend superior strategies and playstyles proposed by innovators like Sandman.

[TeshiAlair]

*popcorn*

But seriously, the main issue is that people who are ignorant tend to have this weird defensiveness, and the people who are not have little patience/are sick of seeing the same proposals and questions.

I honestly think the best solution would be a thread to catch noobies up to speed on just basic concepts and frequently discussed threads.

[Laraso]

The point is, who are you to say it's bad? Especially when the players giving the advice have -more- wins than you. If you disagree, you can say so and why. But let the advice-asker listen to who they want and find out for themselves which was the good advice or the bad advice.

I hate this.

Please fix your quotes, I didn't say that.

[twelwe]

i dont use backspace, thats the post i quoted