SpeedRunning


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 6

Joined: Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:04

Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:18

SpeedRunning

Hello there

I am very interested in DCSS speedrunning and I am impressed by this table.
1) Do you think those are the best times ever ? Or only the best times on this server ?
2) Do you think there is a way to watch those performances ? I guess it was not recorded ? Maybe this guy is on Twitch ?
3) Is there a way to contact the fellow parabolic to record a run ?

Thanks !

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:32

Re: SpeedRunning

parabolic, qw, cashybrid, and oppbolic are bots. parabolic, cashybrid, and oppbolic are occasionally user-assisted (they stop when things get particularly dangerous), qw is a pure bot. qw was able to win offline in about 10 minutes (which should give you an idea of how resource heavy Crawl actually is).

Every game on that table was recorded from start to end. You can retrieve the recordings with listgame.

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Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:56

Re: SpeedRunning

Very good to know, thanks for the quick answer.

So ophanim would be the first human player here ?

But... I'm sorry, I am quite bad at it and can't find the way. I am not an IT guy at all and might miss something.

At the end of your link I have read the FooTV part. I have downloaded putty and went through telnet to termcast.develz.org. I have then the choice between Fight Club and FooTV. Hitting b bring me to a waiting screen where I can't do anything. I guess I should first select the games I want to watch before reaching FooTV, so I would like to type somewhere `!lg * name=parabolic` according to your listgame manual. But I can't find where. May I ask some help ?

Blades Runner

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Joined: Tuesday, 10th April 2012, 21:11

Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 10:04

Re: SpeedRunning

Type the commands in the ##crawl channel on chat.freenode.net

You can either watch the game on footv with -tv, or get urls for the ttyrecs with -ttyrec. Someone linked a really cool ttyrec player here recently called jettyplay. You can just load the url and not even have to download the files:

http://nethack4.org/projects/jettyplay/

Temple Termagant

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 11:13

Re: SpeedRunning

ok it works fine with jettyplay, thanks a lot, I have watched it all

As you've said we can see that sometimes parabolic is user-assisted, is there a way to contact this guy ?

And do you confirm then that ophanim is the fastest human-only run ?
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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 12:58

Re: SpeedRunning

Step 1: Play console
Why:
Spoiler: show
  Code:
<Bloax> !lg * tiles won min=dur
<Sequell> 5609. Bloax the Slayer (L23 GrBe of Makhleb), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2013-10-20 04:17:45, with 3885561 points after 31664 turns and 1:53:21.

<Bloax> !lg * tiles won min=dur -2
<Sequell> 5608/5609. Sky the Axe Maniac (L26 HOBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-09-19 21:20:44, with 1617532 points after 66331 turns and 1:53:50.

<Bloax> !lg * tiles won min=dur -3
<Sequell> 5607/5609. dcss the Executioner (L23 MiBe of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-01-15 19:02:52, with 2169011 points after 39425 turns and 2:03:38.

Which all means that any win faster than 1:53:21 was (at this time) done in a console game.


Or well, nobody is forcing you to. But it's two completely different leagues.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:04

Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 13:15

Re: SpeedRunning

That's a bit of information !

Can you develop a bit why it would be so different ?

Congrats for your fast win, btw

Blades Runner

Posts: 552

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 18:04

Re: SpeedRunning

Webtiles is laggy... more so the further you are from the server too (I think).

Zot Zealot

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 19:23

Re: SpeedRunning

True speed runs should be measured by turn count, not by real time. Just my two cents.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 20:23

Re: SpeedRunning

Webtiles is laggy... more so the further you are from the server too (I think).


Glyphs are also easier to distinguish very quickly, which is important if you don't want to die even more than you usually will when you try this kind of speedrun.

ophanim is the fastest human-only run (31 seconds quicker than my own :()

In my experience, strong melee characters (GrBe/MiBe are good choices) are best for this. You will be pressing o and tab most of the time, and you should practice very quickly picking up/wearing/dropping items and otherwise interacting with your inventory, and also going to Lair as quickly as possible (it is possible to reach Lair in 1-2 minutes, though not consistently, but this kind of run can't really be consistently done).
Other players also get great times with SpEn. Looking at 78291's games for instance it should be quite possible to break the record with SpEn as well, though I personally would stick with berserkers.
It is extremely important that you set your explore and travel delay to -1 in the settings to allow instant autoexplore and travel.

I'd say it's very likely that these are the fastest runs. If your internet connection is fast enough, playing locally shouldn't give you a benefit (as your own skill is more likely to be a limiting factor) and a local speedrun probably wouldn't be taken seriously anyway.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 23:21

Re: SpeedRunning

WalkerBoh wrote:True speed runs should be measured by turn count, not by real time. Just my two cents.

Yeah for other games time is more appropriate, but for a procedural turn based game, a win with a lower turncount is much more impressive than a win that took less time but more turns. Lower turncount is more like the quest to find the optimal path to a win for an arbitrary crawl layout, and other than how many games they play, it is a level playing field for bots and humans. Maybe I'm posting too seriously for CYC but I think it is more interesting to solve crawl than to get to the you win screen quickly.

Dis Charger

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 23:23

Re: SpeedRunning

Hmm, bots playing crawl. I haven't heard about that.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 23:29

Re: SpeedRunning

Amnesiac wrote:Hmm, bots playing crawl. I haven't heard about that.


I'm a bot designed to make stupid mistakes and constantly lose.

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Pandemonium Purger

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Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 23:35

Re: SpeedRunning

cerebovssquire wrote:Glyphs are also easier to distinguish very quickly, which is important if you don't want to die even more than you usually will when you try this kind of speedrun.

I'm probably in the minority here (which might explain why I somehow managed to snatch the fastest webtiles run besides a lot of luck), but I have no trouble distinguishing fancy images very quickly.
The biggest factor for why I'm suggesting console is that webtiles is quite laggy, and even forces you to refresh a couple of times over the course of a normal game due to what seems like resource leaks.
This refreshing has to be done much, much more often in a webtiles speedrun though - because you need optimal performance while visiting a lot more areas much faster than normally. (And shoals is a refresh nightmare.)

If your internet connection is fast enough, playing locally shouldn't give you a benefit (as your own skill is more likely to be a limiting factor) and a local speedrun probably wouldn't be taken seriously anyway.

Local speedruns are much faster than online ones, because even if you have the luxury of being right next to one of the servers and have a latency time of 12ms - sending 5000 commands over the course of your game would end up being 600 seconds worth of delay over the entire game, or 10 whole minutes added to the total time. Of course you probably won't use anywhere near 5000 commands, but you'll probably still get a couple of lag-minutes even with the lowest of pings.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Location: Berlin

Post Sunday, 16th February 2014, 23:54

Re: SpeedRunning

Bloax wrote:
cerebovssquire wrote:Glyphs are also easier to distinguish very quickly, which is important if you don't want to die even more than you usually will when you try this kind of speedrun.

I'm probably in the minority here (which might explain why I somehow managed to snatch the fastest webtiles run besides a lot of luck), but I have no trouble distinguishing fancy images very quickly.
The biggest factor for why I'm suggesting console is that webtiles is quite laggy, and even forces you to refresh a couple of times over the course of a normal game due to what seems like resource leaks.
This refreshing has to be done much, much more often in a webtiles speedrun though - because you need optimal performance while visiting a lot more areas much faster than normally. (And shoals is a refresh nightmare.)

If your internet connection is fast enough, playing locally shouldn't give you a benefit (as your own skill is more likely to be a limiting factor) and a local speedrun probably wouldn't be taken seriously anyway.

Local speedruns are much faster than online ones, because even if you have the luxury of being right next to one of the servers and have a latency time of 12ms - sending 5000 commands over the course of your game would end up being 600 seconds worth of delay over the entire game, or 10 whole minutes added to the total time. Of course you probably won't use anywhere near 5000 commands, but you'll probably still get a couple of lag-minutes even with the lowest of pings.


Right, with practice you should probably have no problem distinguishing tiles either. I have probably spent like 5 hours total playing tiles compared to thousands of hours with console which means a lot of bias on my part. I just think there's more contrast in console so it should be easier to notice the differences with less practice. But I don't remember most tiles, I just remember orcs and orc warriors (for instance) looking kind of similar.
I didn't know about the latency time, but that makes sense.

I wish I could do a little speedrunning but my internet connection is much worse now so I only get to do it when I'm at my parents' place.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 03:43

Re: SpeedRunning

Bloax wrote:Local speedruns are much faster than online ones, because even if you have the luxury of being right next to one of the servers and have a latency time of 12ms - sending 5000 commands over the course of your game would end up being 600 seconds worth of delay over the entire game, or 10 whole minutes added to the total time. Of course you probably won't use anywhere near 5000 commands, but you'll probably still get a couple of lag-minutes even with the lowest of pings.
That's not really quite how it works, since you can send commands before the previous one has finished.

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:04

Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 11:38

Re: SpeedRunning

I agree that in my personal experience, although I have a very good internet connexion, I play online (tiles) only during the tournaments, since the lag is a bit frustrating.
I should try console mode though

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 13:36

Re: SpeedRunning

Yeah, speedrunning comes in two flavours.

I have one quite fast of a DDHe played offline. It's top ten in turns and top 15 in real time if we exclude the bots/bot assisted play.

This was actually the character that pretty much made me stop playing crawl (only 2-3 wins after that), it felt like closure for me :D.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9978&p=137743#p137743

I also have under 1:30 GrBe: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9879&p=136277&hilit=fast#p136277

I don't know if there are other fast wins offline. GrBe is quite potent for real time speedrunning. I don't think I even set the autoexplore to instant or anything.
Last edited by Mankeli on Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 07:35, edited 1 time in total.

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Sunday, 16th February 2014, 09:04

Post Monday, 17th February 2014, 13:42

Re: SpeedRunning

BTW to answer to people arguing about min turn wins : I totally agree these one are very impressive too.
But I find actually both performances impressive and they teach other players how to play better in their specific own way. That is why I find it totally relevant to keep track of both (and to outline both in tournaments)

You do not track how fast one person is capable of taking "vital" decisions in a min turn speedrun.
You do not track the best (most efficient) way to get back the orb in a real time speedrun.

Zot Zealot

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Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 01:48

Re: SpeedRunning

Gobbopathe wrote:You do not track how fast one person is capable of taking "vital" decisions in a min turn speedrun.
You do not track the best (most efficient) way to get back the orb in a real time speedrun.

I'm not sure this is the most accurate way to portray the difference. A min turn speedrun is interesting because you tend to eschew resting and exploring. This means you're doing many parts of the game at lower hp, with less experience/skills, and with less tools for dangerous situations than you would otherwise. All of these completely change how you have to think about and react to what would otherwise be trivial situations. In this sense, I think it takes an incredibly skilled player to complete games with fast turn counts.

On the other hand, real-time speedruns do not really change the game at all, comparatively. It just means that you are doing everything on reflex rather than with thought. It's more a measure of how fast you can mash buttons without making mistakes, which (to me, at least) does not mean very much.

When you do a real-time speedrun AND a turn count speed run at the same time, now that's the mark of a truly great player. My best attempt at this was a GrBe that won in 23k turns in 2 hours, 12 minutes.

Slime Squisher

Posts: 391

Joined: Wednesday, 7th December 2011, 20:06

Post Tuesday, 18th February 2014, 01:51

Re: SpeedRunning

It's not the fastest wins clock-time ever. Just on this server and several more have come since. I'm not the best runner or anything, but even I've managed a sub-two-hours speedrun.

In case it helps - here's a link to the youtube playlist of my attempts at speedrunning. If you just want to see the successful one then I think that's 'Run'.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... 4myxa-0wN8

-AHMAD
My Wins 22:
15-runer: OPWz, DECj, DEWz x2, VpWz
Other: DEWz, DrWz, DjWz, KeCj, SpEn, SpWz, SpCj, MuWz, FeWzx2, MiBe x7.

Watch My Weekly Crawl Vids --> http://www.youtube.com/user/BountyHunterSAx <--

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