Do not consider wild magic mutation as good


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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 09:31

Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

It is not unusual for my characters to get "wild magic" mutation via drinking potion of beneficial mutation. Most of the time there is nothing beneficial about it.

Non-casters do not care (no benefit, no hurt - just useless).
Hybrids cry a lot. Rarely they have enough spell skills to be happy about increased power rather than worry about failure rate.
Non-Vehumet, "pure" spellcasters get angry, especially without wizardry as counterbalance. Sure they get nicer fireballs/ice clouds/etc., but eventually they find themselves crippled because they spend much more experience on getting high level spells castable.
I assume that ultimate spellcasters, who do not care about increased spell difficulty, probably were killing everything anyway without any issues.

I would even prefer to remove "increased spellpower" effect and just keep "increased spell difficulty" mutation, but in current version I consider !oBM as potentially bad just because of this one effect.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 10:49

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Does wild magic suck? Yes.
But I'm fairly certain it was intended to be this way. Permanently altering or boosting your character should not be without risk, and this is a similar kind of effect to "You grow horns!" and the like-- there's a benefit, yes, but it comes with a significant drawback.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 11:45

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

It's not always bad. It's usually not bad if you cast a lot of spells, because spellpower is usually really good for those kinds of characters. And if you only cast spells rarely you can probably afford slightly lower success rates. So no, it does not belong with the bad mutations.
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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 12:15

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Bart wrote:but eventually they find themselves crippled because they spend much more experience on getting high level spells castable.

The whole point of mutations is that you have to adapt your strategy. So, maybe you wanted to get OOD, LCS for foostorm as soon as possible. So, you adapt and postpone that goal until you have enough skill or wizardry to compensate (or got rid of the mutation). In the meantime, enjoy more powerful mid-level spells.

It is a double edge mutation. Comes with a benefit and a drawback. The fact that you think the benefit is worthless or that it doesn't outweigh the drawback seems to be caused by your playstyle. I think it works great as a double edge mutation. I personally find it better than most other double edge mutations, maybe you underestimate the value of spell power.
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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 12:32

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Azrael wrote:Permanently altering or boosting your character should not be without risk, and this is a similar kind of effect to "You grow horns!" and the like-- there's a benefit, yes, but it comes with a significant drawback.

Galehar wrote:The whole point of mutations is that you have to adapt your strategy.

Except that first level body mutations (except horns AFAIR) do not prevent from wearing items in appropriate slots and even horns do not prevent it completely. The impact on the gameplay is lower in my opinion as you do not have to adjust your skills nor playstyle. Maybe it is a matter of balance in my case, as I find the effect to be too strong even on the first level (and this mutation has three of them).

Galefury wrote:It's not always bad. It's usually not bad if you cast a lot of spells, because spellpower is usually really good for those kinds of characters. And if you only cast spells rarely you can probably afford slightly lower success rates. So no, it does not belong with the bad mutations.

I disagree. If you cast a lot, you rely on spells a lot and three miscasts in a row can be deadly. If you cast rarely, but relatively powerful spells, they become completely unreliable/unreachable.

It is interesting to me to see how you defend this mutation which only proves everybody plays Crawl differently. I have also an idea then - right now there is exclusively 'wild' mutation. As opposite to it, we could add 'calm magic' mutation. At least for me it would make this Russian roulette fairer.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 12:49

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

I actually like the mutation. To be sure, it's not for all characters (most charms-focused characters don't care that much about power for example). However, wear a ring of wizardry with it, and it's like having the best effect from a ring of fire + ice + all the other spell schools. On one character with it, I could stack enhancers and use a potion of brilliance, and LRD my way through metal walls with no Earth Magic skill.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 14:47

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

I think wild magic is almost always good.

Additionally crawl still doesn't really have a "good mutation" category, and wild magic is clearly not a mutation that fits in the "bad mutation" category. Beneficial mutation potion is just named a bit misleadingly (but I don't have a better suggestion).

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 14:56

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Wild magic can definitely be made to work in your advantage. If you adapt to it a bit, you'll usually end up with a net positive—sometimes even strongly so. If you absolutely do not want to (possibly) have to adapt your character, don't quaff beneficial mutation.

The closest thing to a problem here (and it is pretty minor) is perhaps making !beneficial mutation a bit clearer in terms of what counts as a "beneficial mutation." Also, though I don't think it is a big deal either way, one could also make it so that spells that do not have any spell power metric at all (like Shadow Creatures and Blink) are not affected by Wild Magic.

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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 17:33

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

"Potion of not-strictly terrible mutation" seems a bit mouthy to me :)

I do think an "Opposite of Wild Magic" mutation sounds like a fun addition, since it would also be double-edged, a 'wizardry bonus combined with a spellpower suppressor'

"Still magic"
"Your mind is calm when casting spells, however you are less able to infuse them with energy"
"Your mind is very calm when casting spells, and the energy you infuse them with is lessened considerably"
"Your mind is nearly still when casting spells, and you can infuse them with almost no energy"

Would certainly change your training and what kind of spells would be useful to cast. (Although it would make spells whose effects aren't as reliant on spellpower much easier to use, not sure that that's a good thing, since those are generally recognized as more problematic (I'm looking at you charm spells!))
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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 18:03

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Giving wizardry rings that drawback might be kind of a cool change, no idea if those are overused or not though.

vvv Opportunity cost is a good point.
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Post Friday, 31st January 2014, 18:22

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Generally Wizardry ranges from a "pretty decent" ring to a "not really all that useful" ring, giving it a strict downgrade like that would probably push it into the "not usually worth it at all" range.

Equipment already comes with a built-in (opportunity) cost, and doesn't really need *additional* drawbacks unless the effect is really excessively powerful.
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Post Saturday, 1st February 2014, 02:29

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Potion of at Least Partially Useful Mutation

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 01:21

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

we just need to add "possibly" to the name of the potion

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 01:24

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Potion of not horrible mutation

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 04:27

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Potion of comparative advantage.
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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 07:07

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

johlstei wrote:Potion of not horrible mutation


Potion of Impetus for Removing Boring +Stat Mutations
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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 07:08

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Potion of grey-text mutation.
take it easy

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 07:49

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

The +stat mutations are actually fairly good nowadays, certainly more meaningful than getting, say, slow metabolism or (past very early game) spit poison or talons/hooves that you're wearing boots over anyway.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 12:56

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Let Me ask you: why is this mutation good whilst Berserkitis is bad? Everything that was said about Wild Magic can be said about Berserkitis:

galehar wrote:It is a double edge mutation. Comes with a benefit and a drawback. The fact that you think the benefit is worthless or that it doesn't outweigh the drawback seems to be caused by your playstyle.
Exactly the same words. (See my reasoning later on.)
Bart wrote:Non-casters do not care (no benefit, no hurt - just useless).
Hybrids cry a lot.
Non-Vehumet, "pure" spellcasters get angry.
Pure casters, pure hunters, Ash worshipers do not care (no benefit, no hurt - just useless).
Hybrids cry more than pure fighters: they need more melee hits on average to kill their enemies (more chances for Berserkitis to proc) and/or they need even more food besides Berserk hunger cost (buffs/forms hunger cost and/or regeneration hunger cost (spell/ring/simple waiting) (this may be caused by longer fights (weaker offense) or more damage taken (weaker defenses))).
Galefury wrote:It's not always bad. It's usually not bad if you cast a lot of spells, because spellpower is usually really good for those kinds of characters.
It's not always bad. It's usually not bad if you can eat till engorged (by wearing gourmand amulet or being carnivore).
Galefury wrote:And if you only cast spells rarely you can probably afford slightly lower success rates.
And if you hit in melee rarely you can probably afford that additional food cost.
(Though I don't admit this Galefury's statement: success rates aren't slightly lower when you cast spells rarely, i.e. you cast 1st-3rd level spells having minimum spell skills XP investment.)

Hereinafter: WM - Wild magic, B - Berserkitis.
Both WM and B can be dealt with at the cost of jewellery slot. (Wizardry negates WM drawback. Clarity suppresses B. Gourmand allows to ignore food part of B drawback.)
Both WM and B amplify some aspect of your offense (magic and melee respectively). B benefit isn't significant when you fight popcorn? WM benefit isn't significant also when you cast buffs or forms (you don't care how long your buff/form will last after fight is ended). Yes, there are prolonged fights. Also there are not-popcorn monsters.
You insist some classes (i.e. casters) can benefit from WM? I think there are races that can benefit from B: Felids, Trolls, Kobolds, Vampires, Spriggans (reasoning on Spriggans later on). Djinn can't get B but can get WM.
Suddenly got WM or B? You can choose to adapt your plans (if not too late). WM: pure fighter, pure caster (still need some XP investment in side magic schools for latter). B: pure caster, Ash.
If you don't want to or it is too late, you'll need to patch up their drawbacks. And there is qualitative difference between how you do it. I can't say WM and B can be compared in this aspect, ways of patching are too different. I just want to say that you can patch up both.
How to patch up?
Aside from mentioned jewellery slot:
WM: clear and plain way - invest more XP into magic (it can be solid amount in case of bad aptitudes and/or high-level buffs (haste, phase shift) and/or lots of magic schools being used).
Do you think you can't deal with B drawbacks? You can:
Slow problem: You'll need even more emphasized tactics of splitting your enemies up and luring them into safe explored regions of map (but don't split them too much, you don't want to berserk at each enemy separately). (Spriggan reason: you're faster than normal speed enemies even when you're slowed, so this isn't a real problem.)
Hunger problem: Carnivore species doesn't have this problem (may be aside of extended). For others, as in WM case, you can spend some XP. A magical or ranged skill will help you to deal with popcorn not exposing you to a risk of wasting your nutrition on a random rat-like monster.
Also you can use so-called "very-hungry" diet to semi-negate B. You can't lose your temper when you're very hungry or below. So you should try to eat as late as possible (but without taking much risk of wasting permafood instead of a chunk). (And this is extremely useful tip for Spriggans with B. Spriggans with B casting cheap buffs will never have food issues, believe Me.)
And in case you possess Jump ability (by being a Felid or finding a lucky item) you can always choose your next fight not to be a red film by jumping into action (thus making yourself exhausted).

Summarizing: I insist on making WM and B both good or both bad.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 12:59

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

I think moving this to CYC is a bit unfair, I think a player can reasonably expect to receive a mutation that is beneficial when they drink a potion called Beneficial Mutation. If Wild Magic (which is bad for a lot of characters) stays the name should probably be changed to reflect the fact that there is a risk.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 13:03

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Yermak: Because Berserkitis is a much, much, much greater liability/danger/risk than Wild Magic. The former can hose you when using melee attacks, the latter will not hose you for using spells. No, these are not the same, and the situation is fine.
Regarding the name of the potion: maybe not perfect, but it's alright, too. Wild Magic is a mutation that you can turn into an advantage much more easily than Berserkitis. When I get it (and I did in my DrCK challenge game), I think of it as a gain. I never do with Berserkitis. The similarities you mention are formal, the differences are real.

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Post Tuesday, 4th February 2014, 15:57

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Leafsnail wrote:I think moving this to CYC is a bit unfair, I think a player can reasonably expect to receive a mutation that is beneficial when they drink a potion called Beneficial Mutation. If Wild Magic (which is bad for a lot of characters) stays the name should probably be changed to reflect the fact that there is a risk.

Many "good" muts have at least an arguable downside. Horns are generally good but:

LearnDB wrote:
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The orb of fire glows yellow. Strange energies course through your body. A pair of horns grows on your head! _The +2 helmet of Saih {+Rage rF++} falls away!


Antannae are extremely good but will do the same thing.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 08:51

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

dpeg wrote:Yermak: Because Berserkitis is a much, much, much greater liability/danger/risk than Wild Magic. The former can hose you when using melee attacks, the latter will not hose you for using spells. No, these are not the same, and the situation is fine.

When I started crawling, I hated berserkitis, but I learned how to handle it. Is it possible that you do not know how to deal with berserkitis similarly as we cannot adjust to WM?

With berserkitis triggering in the middle of combat you get more damage/HP. That is not hosing, but boosting. If the combat takes too long, it might lead to dangerous situation and one definitely can learn how to minimize the risk. One can also find a way to deal with berserkitis, naming few: clarity amulet, Ashenzari worship, casting necromutation, cure mut. There are more similarities than some of you admit.

Back to Wild Magic: how do you not see it hosing for using spells? If you get red miscasts, you will be hurt directly because of your poor spellcasting chance. Even if you train relevant skill (that costs!) to a level where your miscasts are 'barely' yellow or even have no side effects, you still lose plenty of mana on these miscasts and end up endangered. It does not matter if your single fireball is stronger if in place of it you could land two. It does not matter if haste lasts ten turns more if you cast it one turn too late.

I would like to hear more opinions on creating a mutation opposite to Wild Magic. I have only heard so far that it could be 'too strong', because it buffs charms. If it indeed was so strong, how comes that wild magic is also strong? No bad sides here, double win for player!

Last question: Why was the topic moved to CYC? Did I do something wrong in asking a question about game mechanics? Did the idea sound so funny and unserious?

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 11:26

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

ok, wild magic is bad for buffs on characters who don't want to damage or disable enemies with spells, but it's obviously good for damaging and disabling spells. In fact, can you even max out spell power of spells like mass confusion without this mutation?

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 17:30

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Amnesiac wrote:ok, wild magic is bad for buffs on characters who don't want to damage or disable enemies with spells, but it's obviously good for damaging and disabling spells. In fact, can you even max out spell power of spells like mass confusion without this mutation?

It is not so obviously good if you cannot get spell success high enough to rely on them.

Since you are asking about max power, we must also picture a character with maximized skills, great equipment and exceptional intelligence - now I understand why you do not see a problem of low spell success...
The fact that you will not get max power on mass confusion without wild magic rather exposes a problem in spell power system than justifies the necessity of getting wild magic to perform well.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 20:47

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

"Max power" isn't usually something to shoot for, or even consider, Max spellpower is there as a limit against people going over-the-top-crazy with spellpower, it's the line saying "Ok, you've crossed the ocean, walked up the beach climbed the mountain, decended into the volcano, walked through the center of the earth through to the other side and THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE TO GO, SERIOUSLY STOP TRYING"

To get max spellpower with only one enhancer (robes of the archmagi is the only hexes spellpower enhancer other than wild magic) it takes 75 int (Which to put it generously is impractical) with archmagi+wild magic it only requires 50 int (Which is just this side of possible, but very difficult)

More to the point though, max spellpower isn't required to get mass confusion to "work" more spellpower makes it more reliable against most creatures, but even having 100 spellpower gives you some chance against some of the toughest creatures. It takes 153 spellpower to get a 50:50 chance of confusing a tentacled monstrosity, but even at 100 spellpower, you still have roughly a 1:10 chance of success.
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 21:06

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Spear of the Botono is also (supposedly) a hex enhancer.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 21:25

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Sar wrote:Spear of the Botono is also (supposedly) a hex enhancer.

Forgot about that one, thanks :)
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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 22:10

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

right... I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

Well, when I want to max out the spell power I play DE and they don't have as much problem getting to 50 Int. 72 is the max as far as I remember, btw.

Anyway, if the difference between 150 and 100 is 50% and 10% to confuse a tentacled monstrosity isn't it HUGE? And the whole point is to make them hexes work, unlike conjurations, that work anyway.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 22:17

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Ideally you should not try to confuse a tentacled monstrosity IMO.

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Post Wednesday, 5th February 2014, 22:29

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Maybe. But if you want and if you can, why not? :)

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 03:03

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Amnesiac wrote:right... I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

Well, when I want to max out the spell power I play DE and they don't have as much problem getting to 50 Int. 72 is the max as far as I remember, btw.

Anyway, if the difference between 150 and 100 is 50% and 10% to confuse a tentacled monstrosity isn't it HUGE? And the whole point is to make them hexes work, unlike conjurations, that work anyway.


Actually I forgot Mass confusion gets a built-in 50% power boost (All mass-charms do)

100 spellpower *is* 150 in "resistance power" (so 50% chance against a tentacled monstrosity) 133 spellpower is 200 enchantment power (so around 90% against a tentacled monstrosity) More than 133 spellpower doesn't have any impact for mass confusion effectiveness.

67 spellpower gives you 100 enchantment resistance power, so 10% confusion against a tentacled monstrosity.
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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 03:05

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

I heard about the boost. But bots say "small boost". Anyway, this is pretty awesome. Is this boost actually reflected in the SP display?

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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 03:37

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

It's not a boost to spellpower, it's a boost to enchantment power.
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Post Thursday, 6th February 2014, 03:45

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Doesn't that mean, that getting more than 133 SP will work? Or the enchantment power is capped too?

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Post Thursday, 13th February 2014, 03:25

Re: Do not consider wild magic mutation as good

Those who believe Wild Magic is a good mutation should try playing a DsTm with Wild Magic 2. Blade Hands at yellow 24% despite Int 20, Transmutations 10.5 and Spellcasting 4.9, red Flight at 41% despite Charms 2.8 and Air 2.4 etc. I don't want Wand of Hasting/Healing, I want a ring of wizardry or preferably two...

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