badforum question

[Sandman25]

It was fun to read at least 9 my quotes in http://cowmuffins.net/badforum.txt but I'd like to know what is wrong with this:

"171. Try TrMo and let me know if you still think late game is easier than pre-Lair".

Is it possible to die as TrMo before lair at all? I failed to do it even with no-pickup conduct

"179. Gourmand allows to have Shatter in Vaults 1 without exploring Lair branches/Elf/D20+ and without Vehumet/Sif. Though Staff of Energy seems to be even more overpowered."

I was speaking from experience here too.

"140. SE is not a Mi so it should not melee dangerous things so early even with vamp lajatang."

Vampiricism does not help much when you die in one or two shots due to lack of HP, AC and EV, does it?

"145. I would not consider it wasting id scroll on amulet of faith. The amulet is almost useless for Sif Muna"

What is wrong here???

[Sar]

TrMo is exceptionally strong all game long because well, it's a Tr. Also I remember dying a lot (A LOT) as a TrBe before Lair when I was new and (even more) terrible, so it's definitely possible.
Never bothered with rushing Shatter. I think what "allows" Shatter are good Earth apts, wiz, that kinda thing. Not gourmand, which just makes spamming it somewhat easier.
SE can get decent EV. They aren't (weren't, RIP) exactly great species, but vamp laj is pretty good.
If you worship Sif, you probably want some gifts, faith helps.

Anyway, just my guesses.

[TehDruid]

Sandman made it to badforum entries?
I can't seem to be able to find any of my own "gems"...

[cerebovssquire]

  Code:

badforum[38]
Idea: there is a chance of Haste berserking you that decreases with spellpower

oh, the sins of my youth

[WalkerBoh]

"171. Try TrMo and let me know if you still think late game is easier than pre-Lair".

Pre-Lair is still the hardest part of the game, even for a TrMo. While your point is valid that trolls have a harder time later in the game than other species relative to their early game (due to lack of defenses finally starting to catch up with them), your chances of dying pre-Lair are still much, much higher than later.

"179. Gourmand allows to have Shatter in Vaults 1 without exploring Lair branches/Elf/D20+ and without Vehumet/Sif. Though Staff of Energy seems to be even more overpowered."

By itself, gourmand does not allow you to have Shatter at all. It seems incredibly hard to get shatter up in the situation you described, and although gourmand helps you be able to spam it easier, it is like the least important thing you would need in order to be casting Shatter in Vaults in those circumstances.

"140. SE is not a Mi so it should not melee dangerous things so early even with vamp lajatang."

SE are really not that frail, I think you're overstating it quite a bit (I 15-runed a SEGl^Ash with a pain lajatang). Vamp lajatang is so good early, you really have to use it. And that goes for most good early weapons on most chars - not just Mi.

"145. I would not consider it wasting id scroll on amulet of faith. The amulet is almost useless for Sif Muna"

As Sar said, if you want spells then faith helps you get more spells faster. Far from useless.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Edit: You know, this gave me an idea. Why don't we start a "Badforum Entry of the Day/Week" thread in Dungeon Advice? Pick a badforum entry and explain what's wrong with it so that people understand. Throwing it out there. (watch this end up in a badforum entry)

[cerebovssquire]

most of them are incredibly obvious (and some are outdated)

[Sandman25]

Well, I must be a really bad player as I still don't understand why I was wrong even after all those explanations.

Pre-Lair is still the hardest part of the game, even for a TrMo.

My experience is different both with no pickup conduct and without. Dying before lair would require a very serious mistake (like trying to fight Sigmund and Grinder simultaneously), dying in and after lair is very easy because of ranged monsters and hydra etc.

By itself, gourmand does not allow you to have Shatter at all. It seems incredibly hard to get shatter up in the situation you described, and although gourmand helps you be able to spam it easier, it is like the least important thing you would need in order to be casting Shatter in Vaults in those circumstances.

Well, technically, yes, gourmand does not allow to have Shatter at all. But I had gourmand early so I knew I would be able to spam it so I rushed to it with DDEE of Vehumet and the game was very easy after that. Without gourmand I would not be able to use this strategy because of spell hunger.

SE are really not that frail, I think you're overstating it quite a bit (I 15-runed a SEGl^Ash with a pain lajatang). Vamp lajatang is so good early, you really have to use it. And that goes for most good early weapons on most chars - not just Mi.

My phrase was taken from a thread where SE died having 72 max HP, EV 12 and about 5 AC. Mi would surely have more HP and could easily have more EV and/or AC.

If you worship Sif, you probably want some gifts, faith helps.

I usually choose strategy which does not depend on Sif Muna's books as they are pretty unreliable, you never know what you will get next. This is why I don't care about her piety much. Would you use faith if conservation/gourmand is available?

[duvessa]

Well, I must be a really bad player as I still don't understand why I was wrong even after all those explanations.

Yeah that's kind of why your posts keep ending up in badforum...

The entry is just there to make people laugh, not to harass you. Like those "Facebook fail" blogs. Don't take it so seriously. If ending up in it really bothers you, it would probably be easiest to just improve your posts; if the possibility of saying something very wrong bothers you, then don't make so many claims about things you clearly aren't experienced with. In fact I would recommend this anyway, as your destructive advice bothers a lot of people even here on Tavern.

(By the way, I do not add most badforum entries myself, nor did I start it. I just host it because it was getting too long for the learndb html page.)

[cerebovssquire]

TrMo has an easy early game. UC, especially Tr UC, is ridiculously strong late on and it can be used with a large shield easily and Tr have a ton of HP so they have even easier lategames.

You can't spam Shatter in every fight without gourmand. However, you can cast Shatter in every fight where it is actually going to be relevant (as opposed to fights where Stone Arrow, LRD and Iron Shot guarantee success anyway) and never run into issues. There is virtually no difference between gourmand+Shatter and just Shatter, and the difference there is is vastly less important than int, wizardry, gods etc. for casting Shatter early. Also, rushing to Shatter is a bad idea in general (did the character in question have melee skills, charms or most importantly, more than 72 HP, 5 AC and 12 EV?)

If the SE had a vampiric lajatang, the player should have had more HP, AC and EV. In that case, the character was played really badly and that has absolutely nothing to do with species. If we're talking about the early game where they were still training skills. If we're talking about early game here, then 72 HP is enough to take hits and regenerate with lajatang.

Sif Muna's gifts being unreliable is an argument for getting more books via faith so you get a higher chance of useful spells

[Sandman25]

Well, I must be a really bad player as I still don't understand why I was wrong even after all those explanations.

Yeah that's kind of why your posts keep ending up in badforum...

The entry is just there to make people laugh, not to harass you. Like those "Facebook fail" blogs. Don't take it so seriously. If ending up in it really bothers you, it would probably be easiest to just improve your posts; if the possibility of saying something very wrong bothers you, then don't make so many claims about things you clearly aren't experienced with. In fact I would recommend this anyway, as your destructive advice bothers a lot of people even here on Tavern.

(By the way, I do not add most badforum entries myself, nor did I start it. I just host it because it was getting too long for the learndb html page.)

I didn't know you are hosting the forum.
Actually you could have noticed I almost stopped giving advices, for several reasons.
I am ok with being in the badforum, I was just surprised with some entries. To me "Early game for TrMo is easier than late game" is obvious/serious in the same way as "Necromutation is bad in 3-rune game" to you. By the way I am not sure why there are no my quotes about Necromutation, aren't they funny enough?

[nago]

About the vampiric lajatang -not to harrass you but to try to explain: I remember that thread because I've replied and yours was a terrible advice: the char actually had 21/16/16 ac/ev/shield, which are very solid defences at that point of the game.
Surely, 72hp aren't a lot but some species who like to melee a lot have same/ even worse hp apt and with that value (and a vamp lajt) you can safely tab a lot of thing - essentially anything who can't oneshot you (who are very rare enemies at that point of game)

[Sandman25]

TrMo has an easy early game. UC, especially Tr UC, is ridiculously strong late on and it can be used with a large shield easily and Tr have a ton of HP so they have even easier lategames.

Late game Tr has problems with ranged monsters and MR, I don't see how it is easier than pre-Lair. Sorry, it looks like our experience differ too much.

You can't spam Shatter in every fight without gourmand. However, you can cast Shatter in every fight where it is actually going to be relevant (as opposed to fights where Stone Arrow, LRD and Iron Shot guarantee success anyway) and never run into issues. There is virtually no difference between gourmand+Shatter and just Shatter, and the difference there is is vastly less important than int, wizardry, gods etc. for casting Shatter early. Also, rushing to Shatter is a bad idea in general

I wanted to have Shatter in Vaults because I lost too many characters there. Shatter solves problem with Mark, Recall.

(did the character in question have melee skills, charms or most importantly, more than 72 HP, 5 AC and 12 EV?)

Well, those are too different characters, SE is not even mine.
Oops, I was wrong, that was not DDEE of Vehumet.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8377&p=113306#p113306
It casted Shatter 9 times at levels 16-18.

If the SE had a vampiric lajatang, the player should have had more HP, AC and EV. In that case, the character was played really badly and that has absolutely nothing to do with species. If we're talking about the early game where they were still training skills. If we're talking about early game here, then 72 HP is enough to take hits and regenerate with lajatang.

The problem with vampiric weapon is that it requires high HP/AC/EV, otherwise character may lose too many HP, especially when fighting several monsters. It's somewhat close to war of attrition.

Sif Muna's gifts being unreliable is an argument for getting more books via faith so you get a higher chance of useful spells

It depends on point of view. Getting 2 useless books instead of 1 useless book is not a big stimulus for me. I wear faith fine with any god until I find a better amulet. If I wear conservation, I consider using ID scroll on unknown amulets as I don't need faith but don't feel comfortable to lose much piety either.

[and into]

Well, I must be a really bad player as I still don't understand why I was wrong even after all those explanations.

I think the disconnect here is between what you identify as going wrong or as going right in certain cases. Which is probably related, but not the same as how well one plays the game. Plenty of people give advice that is actually worse than how they play.

Well, technically, yes, gourmand does not allow to have Shatter at all. But I had gourmand early so I knew I would be able to spam it so I rushed to it with DDEE of Vehumet and the game was very easy after that. Without gourmand I would not be able to use this strategy because of spell hunger.

So on the highest-intelligence species that also has the most magic-affine aptitudes, worshiping the god who gives wizardry bonus to shatter, and (depending on version, possibly) back when the game had much more experience in it to boot, the fact that you got gourmand *and* had a book with shatter in it (which Vehumet did not used to give, and which still isn't guaranteed as spell gift now)... You rushed shatter and made that strategy work.

All those factors were integral to your ability to do that, some more than others. You couldn't (or wouldn't) have done it if a lot of those other things weren't true, and amongst those, I imagine gourmand was in actuality an extremely minor factor. So, if, in looking back on your experience, you highlighted that as an important or critical factor, then that is more than a little strange.

My phrase was taken from a thread where SE died having 72 max HP, EV 12 and about 5 AC. Mi would surely have more HP and could easily have more EV and/or AC.

Why do you think an SE couldn't have had more EV and/or AC than that? The SE could (and should!) have trained dodging, and also (possibly) could have made more reasonable armor choices. At relatively low levels an Mi in a robe with no dodging is only going to be a *little* bit harder to kill (thanks to base HP) than an SE, and that's it. By the time you have 72 max HP with an SE, which would be what, like char lvl 12 or 13, you absolutely should have more than 12 EV, unless you lucked into some awesome armor or rings of protection or something that let you rely on AC for defense. (If dude in question had 5 AC obviously this didn't happen.)

Again, if you got 72 max HP, and only have 12 EV and 5 AC, species selection is not the issue! (71 HP, 12 EV and 5 AC might be reasonable for an Ogre or Troll, but that's because they can hit 72 max HP at like level 7 or 8.)

I usually choose strategy which does not depend on Sif Muna's books as they are pretty unreliable, you never know what you will get next. This is why I don't care about her piety much.

Sif Muna is much closer to Trog than Okawaru when it comes to gifts (i.e., they are actually pretty damn reliable, although of course not guaranteed to be useful). And faith ensures that the sheer quantity of books will nearly guarantee that you get everything / anything you might need on a pretty short time line.

Would you use faith if conservation/gourmand is available?

Jesus, I don't even know where to begin. Uh, yes. Yes I would use faith.

It is much faster and more convenient to list the situations in which I would not use amulet of faith, rather than the other way around.

So:

1.) I am currently not worshiping a god
2.) I am worshiping Vehumet *and* I already have max piety
3.) I am worshiping Sif and have absolutely every single spell I could ever want in the game. Ever.
4.) I am planning to do slime pits very soon and only have rCorr available in amulet slot
5.) I am at max piety and really happy with everything about my character, which is doing very well and has grown very self-reliant, and I decide I want to have rMut and Conservation both available on swap largely as a convenience, especially if I'm in the mood to play somewhat fast and sloppily (possibly while a bit drunk too, or otherwise distracted), while still not caring about the annoyances of item destruction and mutations

Note that 6.) is not really optimal play nor advice that I'd give to other people, but just me being honest about how I play DCSS sometimes. (Usually I find it most fun to play to win, but not always.)

Otherwise: Faith.

[Sandman25]

About the vampiric lajatang -not to harrass you but to try to explain: I remember that thread because I've replied and yours was a terrible advice: the char actually had 21/16/16 ac/ev/shield, which are very solid defences at that point of the game.
Surely, 72hp aren't a lot but some species who like to melee a lot have same/ even worse hp apt and with that value (and a vamp lajt) you can safely tab a lot of thing - essentially anything who can't oneshot you (who are very rare enemies at that point of game)

Where do you see any advices from me in that thread???

My "advice" was good:

The thing is, this character has no defences.

Level 2.8 Dodging
Level 5.0 Fighting

Yes, I agree about Dodging. SE is not a Mi so it should not melee dangerous things so early even with vamp lajatang

Those defenses could be improved easily, with actually good defenses (or being a Mi with 20% more HP) the character could be alive.

[Sandman25]

and into,

Mi has about 20% more HP and kills enemies faster due to retaliation.

Of course I was asking about faith vs conservation/gourmand when talking about Sif Muna only. For some other gods faith is a no-brainer.

I don't want to make this thread too long so please forgive me I am done with it. I don't want to add new quotes to the badforum

[Abominae]

(Pssst. All of you are absolutely wasting your time trying to get Sandman25 to see why you are correct.)

[and into]

Of course I was asking about faith vs conservation/gourmand when talking about Sif Muna only. For some other gods faith is a no-brainer.

Okay, fair enough, but faith only becomes weak on sif muna when, between her gifts and what you've found, you have already gotten access to every spell you could want. The only god where faith actually becomes worthless at high piety, I believe, is Vehumet—because he doesn't give gifts past a certain point and doesn't have any piety-consuming abilities. On all the other gods you can alter your play style to take advantage of faith by using piety-costing abilities more often, or else get an increased passive benefit (more gifts), or both.

On Xom things work differently but faith (as I understand it) makes him more active; I whether or not you'd want that would depend, but presumably if you are worshiping Xom in the first place you want a chaotic experience so I imagine it would be a positive.

[Sandman25]

(Pssst. All of you are absolutely wasting your time trying to get Sandman25 to see why you are correct.)

Don't underestimate unpredictability of Sandman25

"171. Try TrMo and let me know if you still think late game is easier than pre-Lair".

Ok, good player has bigger chance to die before Lair than otherwise.

"179. Gourmand allows to have Shatter in Vaults 1 without exploring Lair branches/Elf/D20+ and without Vehumet/Sif. Though Staff of Energy seems to be even more overpowered."

Ok, This is a very rare combination and gourmand is a minor component

"140. SE is not a Mi so it should not melee dangerous things so early even with vamp lajatang."

With proper play SE's defences are not too different from Mi's ones so both use vamp lajatang even early game

"145. I would not consider it wasting id scroll on amulet of faith. The amulet is almost useless for Sif Muna"

"The amulet is almost useless" is completely wrong because piety is what brings books and affects miscast protection rate.

Are you satisfied now?

[cerebovssquire]

(Pssst. All of you are absolutely wasting your time trying to get Sandman25 to see why you are correct.)

just trying to get more badforum entries out of this

[Sandman25]

(Pssst. All of you are absolutely wasting your time trying to get Sandman25 to see why you are correct.)

just trying to get more badforum entries out of this

Sorry, that's highly unlikely, now that I know who is the hoster I think I should stop posting at 4000 posts, that would be the safest option.

[Sandman25]

Of course I was asking about faith vs conservation/gourmand when talking about Sif Muna only. For some other gods faith is a no-brainer.

Okay, fair enough, but faith only becomes weak on sif muna when, between her gifts and what you've found, you have already gotten access to every spell you could want. The only god where faith actually becomes worthless at high piety, I believe, is Vehumet—because he doesn't give gifts past a certain point and doesn't have any piety-consuming abilities. On all the other gods you can alter your play style to take advantage of faith by using piety-costing abilities more often, or else get an increased passive benefit (more gifts), or both.

On Xom things work differently but faith (as I understand it) makes him more active; I whether or not you'd want that would depend, but presumably if you are worshiping Xom in the first place you want a chaotic experience so I imagine it would be a positive.

I think gourmand is much more useful for Sif Mina than for any other god and conservation is very useful before you have all wands and cBlink so I would not use faith over those 2 amulets. As I said before I don't care much about time when I get specific spells, that would be a bad strategy

[One-Eyed Jack]

Food is almost never an issue, whereas learning repel missiles or bolt of fire earlier because sif gifted it to you faster very well could be

Conservation is "very useful" perhaps but only if you refuse to use tactics that mitigate item destruction

[and into]

Yes, gourmand is better on Sif than on most other gods. If that's what you meant that is one thing, but I think then the clear way to say that in a manner that is both accurate and also won't sow confusion needlessly is

"Gourmand can actually be used to good effect with Sif, and faith ceases to be useful on Sif once you have all (or nearly all) the books you could want."

[variouselite]

I would just like to say that I always pay attention to sandmans posts because whether or not hes right about things and whether or not hes saying it in a way that makes sense(english is not your first language correct?), he always seems to be thinking about game dynamics and interactions and frequently has brought things to my attention that i was previously unaware of. im the kind of person that always takes info and advice with a grain of salt, so even "bad" advice can be useful if it gets you thinking about things for yourself. i think he deserves a *little* bit of credit for his dedication here. he obviously loves crawl and he obviously loves the community, communication can be a tricky thing, i feel like this community could benefit greatly from improving our communication dynamics. i think it shows great strength of character to stick around and stay positive under harsh judgement.

i want to clarify, i am not suggesting that "bad" advice be accepted or promoted, just that maybe it would be better to depersonalize things a little bit. someone can give bad advice and still be a good person. just modify/remove the advice and explain why it was necessary to the author. problem solved. drama avoided. CRAWL FOR LIFE! <3

[Sandman25]

Food is almost never an issue, whereas learning repel missiles or bolt of fire earlier because sif gifted it to you faster very well could be

Conservation is "very useful" perhaps but only if you refuse to use tactics that mitigate item destruction

I described earlier that I don't go with Sif Muna if I want a specific spell. For Bolf of Fire I would go with Vehumet. Actually I used Sif Muna just thrice: one MuSu dead in Lair, another MuSu dead before Lair and victoriousDsIE. I believe Sif Muna is the weakest god but I bet I am wrong here with 99% chance.

I love conservation because of "psychological trauma" with my first DDFi in plate armour who didn't have conservation even in Zot. Please tell me what should have been done. Train Stealth?

Edit. Lasty, if Vehumet does not give me Bolt of Fire, I will continue to use Fireball. If I don't have Fireball, I would not train Fire Magic with Vehumet

[One-Eyed Jack]

I described earlier that I don't go with Sif Muna if I want a specific spell. For Bolf of Fire I would go with Vehumet. Actually I used Sif Muna just thrice: one MuSu dead in Lair, another MuSu dead before Lair and victoriousDsIE. I believe Sif Muna is the weakest god but I bet I am wrong here with 99% chance.

It doesn't matter whether you want a specific spell. You want spells, as getting them makes your character stronger (usually), and getting them faster makes your character stronger faster, which is actually pretty important in crawl.

[Sandman25]

I described earlier that I don't go with Sif Muna if I want a specific spell. For Bolf of Fire I would go with Vehumet. Actually I used Sif Muna just thrice: one MuSu dead in Lair, another MuSu dead before Lair and victoriousDsIE. I believe Sif Muna is the weakest god but I bet I am wrong here with 99% chance.

It doesn't matter whether you want a specific spell. You want spells, as getting them makes your character stronger (usually), and getting them faster makes your character stronger faster, which is actually pretty important in crawl.

I guess you are right but I chose Sif Muna just because I didn't have a win with her.

[WalkerBoh]

Yeah Sif is one of the worst gods in my opinion, too. Not because she's weak, but because it's mindlessly boring. Bad enough playing something that relies heavily on casting, but then getting to mash aa one thousand times after every battle… Nooooo thanks. At least Veh has the decency to automatically restore your MP for you.

[njvack]

93. Disadvantage: You lose your face...you are unable to eat, drink or read (but still perceive your surroundings...although with reduced LOS). Advantage: You gain the ability to adopt the face of a dead creature. You will slice the face and wear it as a mask, gaining different abilities depending on the general type of monster.

This is perhaps the best idea that has ever been presented on the internet.

[Tiktacy]

Yes, gourmand is better on Sif than on most other gods. If that's what you meant that is one thing, but I think then the clear way to say that in a manner that is both accurate and also won't sow confusion needlessly is

"Gourmand can actually be used to good effect with Sif, and faith ceases to be useful on Sif once you have all (or nearly all) the books you could want."

Loving that sexy blue and into, looks nice on you.

[Grimm]

Hey no flirting in the Tavern please.

[and into]

Thanks Tiktacy, but Grimm is right. Flirting may be appropriate in business meetings, funerals, and the like, but here... Let's try to keep this as serious and as professional as we can. Just as Crazy Yiuf would want it.

[pratamawirya]

Thanks Tiktacy, but Grimm is right. Flirting may be appropriate in business meetings, funerals, and the like, but here... Let's try to keep this as serious and as professional as we can. Just as Crazy Yiuf would want it.

[cerebovssquire]

(Pssst. All of you are absolutely wasting your time trying to get Sandman25 to see why you are correct.)

just trying to get more badforum entries out of this

Sorry, that's highly unlikely, now that I know who is the hoster I think I should stop posting at 4000 posts, that would be the safest option.

so, i hope you're going to make your last post count

[njvack]

Hey no flirting in the Tavern please.

I thought there was nothing but flirting here.

[Lasty]

I described earlier that I don't go with Sif Muna if I want a specific spell. For Bolf of Fire I would go with Vehumet.

This might be eligible for badforum, in that Sif is guaranteed to eventually give you Bolt of Fire, and Vehumet is not.

[Magipi]

I described earlier that I don't go with Sif Muna if I want a specific spell. For Bolf of Fire I would go with Vehumet.

This might be eligible for badforum, in that Sif is guaranteed to eventually give you Bolt of Fire, and Vehumet is not.

This "eventually", however, may take a very long time, longer than the game itself

I remember a game where Sif did not give me Summon dragon. I was a summoner, so I practically only wanted 2 spells (Haste and SD), but instead she kept gifting me randart spellbooks with the 5th copy of metabolic englaciation and similar nonsense.