Mundane

[bcadren]

We talk about races that have too many gimmicks a lot; but what about races that have too few or no differences outside of Apts and Size.

Here I'm talking about races that have no mutations at all: Humans, High Elves, Deep Elves and Demigods are mundane. (One like this is fine; the other could use more to define themselves.) And ones with few differences.

I have no specific suggestions, but I do think the following races could use more to make them unique:

• Elves. Deep Elves extreme apts make them very different. High Elves, on the other hand feel like an attempt to be halfway between human and elf. The poor UC is the only real noticeable difference from just trying to be a hybrid. They do technically have the highest stats of any non-demigod, but that doesn't make them that unique by itself. De Facto HEWz and DEWz play very similarly.
• Demigods. Though the high stats are a bit of a bonus; the lack of gods AND low apts. together make it still worse than mummies. And lack of any mutations and no GOOD way to gain them make them a lot more boring. Ultra strong race that can't use gods OR ultra strong race that grow slowly to make up for the advantage are fine. But those TWO disadvantages for one advantage makes it horribly hard race and not in an interesting or unque way.
• Halflings. These are kind of the small version of humans. They are the !boring version of a small race. Nice template for Kobold and Spriggan, but not a good race by itself. Furthermore Kobold and Halfling don't play that differently.
• Ogres. Not only are they harder than Trolls, the things that make the harder are all !boringness (being more similar to humans). They could use more to make them a UNIQUE choice of large race and not just the harder/challenge large race.
• Non-Fedhas Madash merfolk also seem very !boring, the only mutation/unique difference involves being near water.
• Hill Orcs; only major differences from humans is four specific apts. (Invo (+3), Splcast (-3), Axes(+3), Fighting (+2)) and Saprovore 1...and being the only race that can worship Beogh. Only reason I'd choose the race is for Beogh...if I was wanting the high Invo apt and any other god I'd go Ds or DD; both of which are far more unique from humans.

I'm not saying these races are bad or even if the changes should be buffs or nerfs; I'm just saying that they need more changes to be...unique.

[godzilla]

Proposal: Merge Halfling and High Elf, making Dwarf Elf.

[and into]

The "can't worship any god" mutation is a distinctive and major one. Demigods are also not weak, and certainly are way better than Mummies (assuming fair comparisons and reasonable background choices; obviously Dg** doesn't hold up to most **Be but that's a trivial case).

As for Ogres: +3 HP aptitude. Uses large rocks and giant clubs. Usual penalties due to large size. They also have tons of mutations so... Uh, I don't get why it is on this list.

Halflings: Arguably not different enough from Kobolds. Pretty different from Humans though.

High Elves: Arguably not different enough from Humans/Deep Elves/Merfolk/Tengu.

I don't think it is a huge design issue, but yes, I think halflings and high elves could get cut without really cutting much from the game. But I would be against shoehorning a bunch of random stuff to make them different. In my view, either they should be kept as a kind of backbone of "relatively 'normal' (human-ish)" species, or they should just be cut.

[Tiktacy]

Saying anything is worse than mummies in this forum is likely to get you beaten up and have your lunch money stolen. Even in CYC it's pretty taboo.

I hope this post isn't serious, or else we are going to have the shitstorm of the century.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Demigods are not weak OR boring. They are stronger and more interesting than most other crawl races.

no differences outside of Apts

Luckily aptitudes are a pretty huge difference!

If anything Deep Elves are the boring ones; their "extreme apts" make them one-dimensional. In the same sense that e.g. Merfolk get shoehorned into using polearms, Deep Elves are pushed very hard into a particular playstyle, and that's why High Elf and Halfling are better races than Deep Elf design-wise.

[bcadren]

As for Ogres: +3 HP aptitude. Uses large rocks and giant clubs. Usual penalties due to large size. They also have tons of mutations so... Uh, I don't get why it is on this list. .

Because it's halfway between Human and Troll:

HP+3 (same as Troll), but less of a gameplay effect without the Regeneration Trolls have.
Tough Skin 1 (less than a Trolls Tough Skin 2 and Shaggy Fur 1)
Saprovore 1 (less than a Troll's Gourmand + Saprovore 2)

It feels like the ogre sets the basic 'large races trade bad apts and armour for large weapons and good HP.' and trolls are a more unique, better specific example.

Saying anything is worse than mummies in this forum is likely to get you beaten up and have your lunch money stolen.

I have a right to that opinion; especially after this.

Also added one I forgot to put originally...(see original post).

[zardo]

Dg is interesting because being guided purely by item drops is interesting - it's also actually one of the easiest races to start. I wouldn't have expected this either, but seriously, just try a DgIE. I find it starts to fall behind a little in the early mid-game compared to other races (no god, mediocre -not bad- apts), but that's where most characters start to feel really solid anyway so overall survivability is quite good.

[and into]

Hill Orcs have better HP and level fast. This is an important thing that you keep missing. You say, "I'd just go Ds or DD..." Well, DD have an extremely specific play style, and Ds cannot worship good gods. So it isn't just about Beogh, although that is a major distinguishing fact in its own right, which you brush aside with no real justification at all. Which is a frustrating pattern I'm starting to notice, to be honest.

If you take out Ogres you essentially take out gc/gsc, or really any non-UC very large species.

Okay you played and won a MuCK. Have you played and found some success (not necessarily wins) with Dg, Og, HO, etc., etc., lately? I think you are passing judgment on these other species way too swiftly without (to be frank) much apparent experience with them.

The little "tough skin" vs. "shaggy fur" or whatever things do not even matter and are basically just flavor, why even mention them? Oh, because they look similar on paper and thus seem to support your argument, but in reality don't actually indicate anything about how these species play. (You might as well say that Felids and Formicids both start with F, and therefore overlap too much. Or that Na and Ce are too similar because they both intrinsically have deformed body.)

Meanwhile you keep saying aptitudes don't matter very much, and yet ignore fairly meaningful differences in aptitudes, and then also ignore important differences like HP levels and stats. A difference of 1 or 2 in one or two aptitudes isn't usually a big deal, ditto with 1 or 2 in a given stat. Multiply that a few times though and it does really become noticeable.

Trolls literally gimp themselves enormously if you use any weapon aside from the claws they start with. Sure it is "viable" but why on earth would you do that? Ogres play quite differently from Trolls in most roles, to be honest, and provide a more interesting mix of bonuses and challenges in most backgrounds, as compared with Trolls.

[Viashino_wizard]

Delete halflings. Give Kobolds their Mutation Resistance if there really needs to be a non-undead rMut species.

[Igxfl]

High Elves are thoroughly lame. They should probably be tweaked or get axed.

I really like the bare-bones feel of Demigod games -- you have to make do with floor loot, but you can use it all thanks to good stats and flat apts.
Unfortunately, it seems that the main effective benefit of Demigods is just to have lots of early HP/MP, so you don't die on the first few floors before gods or apts matter.
Demigods might work well if they had better skill/level apts and worse HP/MP, so that they didn't have such a big advantage early when they wouldn't have had a god anyway, but were better off later when they're missing out on Finesse spam.

Ogres might be in intentional challenge race territory. It might be cool to see them at +2 Spellcasting, -2 Magic Schools, it'd keep the general playstyle but make it a little less of an XP screw. Slightly more competent magic skills would also move them further away from trolls.

I have a different beef with Merfolk because their apts heavily encourage polearms, which are fiddly and worse than other non-axe weapons.

[DracheReborn]

If anything Deep Elves are the boring ones; their "extreme apts" make them one-dimensional. In the same sense that e.g. Merfolk get shoehorned into using polearms, Deep Elves are pushed very hard into a particular playstyle, and that's why High Elf and Halfling are better races than Deep Elf design-wise.

Maybe true in a vacuum, but in a game that already has plenty of other species, don't you want to make each species more distinct rather than less?

In any case, if HE were to be removed, DE would probably take on some of their characteristics and become less extreme as a result. Or removing DE and letting HE have some of their characteristics would also be fine.

Re Halflings, I feel that both small races get pushed hard into the stabber playstyle. You don't agree?

[Igxfl]

In any case, if HE were to be removed, DE would probably take on some of their characteristics and become less extreme as a result. Or removing DE and letting HE have some of their characteristics would also be fine.

This sounds pretty good. HE often just feels like a slightly stronger, slightly less flexible human, whereas DE might be a little too shoehorned into magic. There's probably a good balance somewhere.

[and into]

I'm not completely convinced such a change would be necessary, but yes, if you were going to do it, something like merging HE and DE into simply a general Elf that leveled slowly (-1), had good stats (DE base intelligence/str/dexterity, with the HE +1 int or dex every 3 levels), and HP -1, MP +2. Other apts something like +1 long blades + 1 short blades, 0 staves, +2 or +3 bows, +2 Air, otherwise DE magic aptitudes but slightly less extreme (e.g., +2 spell casting, +2 hexes, +2 charms, all else +1), -1 fighting, +1 dodging, -1 armor, -1 shield, +2 stealth, +1 invocations, +2 evocations. All else -2.

Kobolds and Halflings could be similarly merged; probably drop Halflings and keep Kobolds with their carnivorousness, but alter the Kobold's aptitudes a bit to merge the two, taking the middle value between some of them, in some cases just taking the higher of the two values, and then flattening out some of the really extreme silly aptitudes, with one or two exceptions (e.g., allow +3 slings, probably drop sblades and stealth to +2 I think). Lose the innate mutation resistance (not very interesting IMO) and the extremely bad tmut aptitude that goes with that. I think the only question there would be exactly what weapons could new kobolds use (should probably take after halflings, a bit more variety) and what HP aptitude it should have, -1 or -2 (maybe I'd lean toward being generous and giving -1 HP).

This would give the "cut MD, absorb some of its idiosyncrasies into the similar species, where such idiosyncrasies are an improvement" treatment to Halfling/Kobold and HE/DE. And, just as HO emerged from the MD removal even more well rounded and interesting than before, after this you'd end up with two species with clear strong suits but which still remain fairly adaptable and two-dimensional, albeit less so than Hu obviously. Rather than two sets of two species that are competing for similar design area. And you'd have broken away almost completely from the Tolkienesque races, if that's something that bothered you.

[Leafsnail]

I don't see the need to remove DE. Yeah, it would be pretty bad if it were the only species in the game, but it isn't. It provides a different game to other species, and that improves the overall variety of starts available.

I also think there's a pretty large amount of variation in terms of magic and book starts. My DE games were pretty differen from each other because I could afford to just dive straight in to whatever books I found.

[Klown]

Remove Halfling
Remove Kobold
Add Goblin, a more dark magic based small race, and 10x more interesting than the former two combined.

[TeshiAlair]

I completely agree with halfling- I have literally never played one because I don't see the point when Kobold exists.

I actually like DE and HE both existing: DE feels like the Minotaur of magic: Here, this is what you are good at, go do that thing. It can be remarkably therapeutic to load up a DE conjuror after a couple bad games.

HE meanwhile I view as an anti-noobtrap. The aptitudes suggest "hey hybrid characters are a thing," which is how I learned about balancing hybrids. I think the HP and exp apts make them different enough from humans and tengu, and perhaps thats a way they could be more differentiated: give them even better HP but the slowest leveling in the game and/or reduce apts across the board, giving them the flavor of being extremely long-lived.

[Sar]

The reasons to play Ha over Ko is that Ha is like Ko but better.
Of course, if one of those have to go that would have to be Ha, in my opinion.

HE apts might suggest that hybridizing is good but I wouldn't say HE make for remarkable ~hybrids~.

[bcadren]

My victories: TrTm^Sif (0.13 [Trunk]), GrTm^Sif (0.13 [Trunk]), MiFi^Dithmenos (0.14 [Trunk]), MuCK^Lugonu (0.14 [Stable])

Other notable combos in my past (reading my high score table below the wins; and some current save files that have been sitting for a bit:
DsAK^Lugonu-27 (Died to a Pearl Dragon in Holy Pan with 11 runes)
CeMo^Fedhas-26 (Died to a Sphinx in the Tomb : 1 with 4 runes)
HEHu^Chei-21 (Died to an Ancient Lich in Depths : 1 with 3 runes)
VsMo^Elyvilon-19 (Starved in Spider : 5 with 2 runes [I had no Poison resistance, so I couldn't eat chunks])
HOMo^Fedhas-13 (Died to Asterion on Spider : 2 with 1 rune)
FoHu^Fedhas-11 (Died to Hydra in Lair : 6)
MuNe (no god)-11 (died to a Deep Troll Earth Mage on D:8...my best MummyRobin so far)
VsMo^Fedhas-10 (Died to Rupert in Lair : 1)
--
HEWz^Vehu-27 (Save file on Zig-20, 5 runes)

Since my copy of 0.13 Trunk doesn't exist anymore combos I tried a lot back then, no idea how far they made it:
MfGl^Fedhas
HOFi^Beogh
FeMo (was my high score for awhile, back when making i to the Lair had only happened like twice)

So yea; I admit a lot of the races I haven't made it to lair. Doesn't mean that on paper Trolls and Ogres aren't extremely similar; even if Ogres get shoehorned into GSC and Trolls into UC. Give Trolls a +1 in M&F and Fighting and make the Splcast not the worst apt. in the game and all the uniqueness of Ogres has been absorbed in.

[netkitten]

[*]Hill Orcs; only major differences from humans is four specific apts. (Invo (+3), Splcast (-3), Axes(+3), Fighting (+2)) and Saprovore 1...and being the only race that can worship Beogh. Only reason I'd choose the race is for Beogh...if I was wanting the high Invo apt and any other god I'd go Ds or DD; both of which are far more unique from humans.[/list]I'm not saying these races are bad or even if the changes should be buffs or nerfs; I'm just saying that they need more changes to be...unique.

in the way how you describe it, it works for any race:
deep elves are very plain and boring the only difference from humans it's some specific apts and low hp
halflings are very plain and boring the only difference from humans it's some specific apts and being small
even:
felids are very plain and boring the only difference from humans it's some specific apts, some body adjustments and extra lives

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Maybe true in a vacuum, but in a game that already has plenty of other species, don't you want to make each species more distinct rather than less?

Vampire is more different and out-there than High Elf, but I don't think it is more distinct. It certainly doesn't feel distinct when I play it; it feels like a big homogenous blob of "unique" mechanics, much like a bunch of other races. You can turn into a bat and junk but it is so busy being different that it doesn't have a solid foundation on which to experience the game. When you play a High Elf or Octopode you can feel the difference from Human the whole time you are playing.

Making yet another fighting game comparison, whenever people talk about removing races like High Elf, it sounds to me like asking for Ken to be removed from Street Fighter (when really the characters who need to be removed are the retards like Hakan and Cammy that don't contribute anything except "uniqueness").

Re Halflings, I feel that both small races get pushed hard into the stabber playstyle. You don't agree?

I like Halflings because while they are pushed towards a playstyle, that playstyle has room for variation. Sure you train short blades at the start, but the door is left wide open for long blades (and you're done training short blades ridiculously early). The mad sling aptitude lets you easily ignore all the factors pushing towards stealth, and even gives a minor incentive to raise Str and be a heavy armour halfling.

HE often just feels like a slightly stronger, slightly less flexible human

The opposite is true in many situations: humans have better HP and HE Int/Dex/Apts allow them to branch out more easily than humans.

Unfortunately, it seems that the main effective benefit of Demigods is just to have lots of early HP/MP, so you don't die on the first few floors before gods or apts matter.

That's the main benefit, yeah, but those big stats let them do things other races can't, like casting magic with low skill investment and dodging very well even in heavy armour.

I have literally never played one because I don't see the point when Kobold exists.

Why in the world would you play Kobold?? It has the same HP aptitude as Gargoyle/Tengu/Deep Elf, and it is the only one of the 4 that doesn't get massive advantages in exchange.

Ha is better in nearly every way (and imo more interesting due to aptitudes).

Doesn't mean that on paper Trolls and Ogres aren't extremely similar;

On paper doesn't matter because in-game they play very differently (but imo remove troll because it is not interesting at all).

[and into]

Give Trolls a +1 in M&F and Fighting and make the Splcast not the worst apt. in the game and all the uniqueness of Ogres has been absorbed in.

A +1 in M&F will not make Trolls want to go for anything but UC. Also Trolls don't need a buff, and part of the point of having Ogres is that they get certain very powerful tools with a more nuanced set of drawbacks, whereas Trolls get certain extremely powerful tools along with certain other powerful tools and though they are more one-dimensional in certain respects their drawbacks are nearly always quite easy to compensate for.

"Just" giving trolls a +1 in M&F and Fighting is an increase of +3 (!!) in one and +2 in the other. I suppose if you did that and then also gave Trolls normal leveling, +2 MP, +2 Throwing, +6 (!!!) Spellcasting, and a few other random +1s here and there, you'd have something that could play roughly the way an Ogre does now, just with intrinsic gourmand and fast healing, and you'd still go UC because of claws in >90% of games that you want to win. So still not that similar. Plus, then this hybrid Trollgre would no longer resemble a Troll very much at all, either. Even "on paper."

Which then raises the question, "Why is anyone arguing that these two things are too similar, even just on the basis of aptitudes, that claim doesn't make much sense?" Like, three or four of the humanoid species are more similar amongst each other than Tr is to Og, including stuff you haven't even mentioned, like Merfolk.

[Klown]

Just wait for it to hit 27 species, then they -have- to remove them by their own 27 code. Formicids can regain GSC/Rocks to make Ogres obsolete and open up that slot for octocactus

[bcadren]

Some specific proposals then; reasonings in italics

Replace High Elf and Deep Elf with 'Elf':
Starting Stats STR 6; INT 12; DEX 10
Gains (random): Int/Dex every 3rd level.
This keeps Deep Elves' high INT, but HE's stat total Also random Int/Dex-3 is marginally better than Int-4 that DE had.

Apts:
A - Average of original Apts.
S - Original Apts were the same already.
HE - Kept the High Elf Apt.
DE - Kept the Deep Elf Apt.

Fighting: -2* DE, Short: 1 A, Long: 2! HE, Axes: -2 S, Maces: -3* DE, Polearms: -3* DE, Staves: 0 S, Slings: -2 S, Bows: 3! HE, Xbows: 0 HE, Throw: 1 S, Armour: -2 DE, Dodge: 2 DE, Stealth: 2 HE, Shields: -2 DE, UC: -2* S, Splcast: 3! DE, Conj: 1 S, Hexes: 0 HE, Charms: 3 A, Summ: 0 A, Nec: 0 A, Tloc: 1 S, Tmut: 1 S, Fire: 0 HE, Ice: 0 HE, Air: 1 A, Earth: -1 A, Poison: -1 A, Inv: 1 S, Evo: 1 HE, Exp: -1 S, HP: -2 DE, MP: 3 DE

For the most part; if one of the apts had an ! or a *, I kept it; the exceptions are Charms (now 3, instead of 4) and Necromancy (now 0, instead of 2). These exceptions were made to keep from having TOO many ! apts; ! on Spellcast is enough to make for a powerful magic-character, without being too extreme. The +2 Necro just seemed bizarre to me; it's the highest Necro apt and it doesn't belong to a race with any ties to the undead. In a lot of the cases Where I picked one or the other; they were only 1 apart in the first place; like Shields HE had -1 instead of -2 and Xbows DE had -1 instead of 0.

Remove Halfling; integrate some of the uniqueness into Kobolds:
Starting Stats STR 6; INT 7; DEX 11
Gains: Dex every 3rd level.
This keeps Halflings' high DEX and stat total; STR and INT are averaged with Kobold's. I boosted the Halflings 1 Dex with 5th level to 1 every 3rd; as EXTREME dex and the dodging/stealth abilities that grants better make up for the low HP apt. Yes, this is the one CHANGE here that's not drawing from what's already there and it's a non-trivial boost, but it's an interesting boost.

Mutations:
Carnivorous 3
Saprovore 2
Slow Metabolism 1

This is just the mutations of the two races added together; EXCEPT the rMut.

Apts:
A - Average of original Apts.
S - Original Apts were the same already.
Ko - Kept the Kobold Apt.
Ha - Kept the Halfling Apt.

Fighting: 0 A, Short: 3! S, Long: -1 A, Axes: -1 S, Maces: -1 A, Polearms: -3* Ha, Staves: -1 Ko, Slings: 4! Ha, Bows: 1 A, Xbows: 2! Ko, Throw: 3! S, Armour: -2 S, Dodge: 2 S, Stealth: 4 S, Shields: -2 Ko, UC: 0 Ko, Splcast: -3 Ha, Conj: -1 Ko, Hexes: -1 Ha, Charms: 0 A, Summ: 0 Ko, Nec: -1 A, Tloc: 1 Ha, Tmut: -1 Ko, Fire: 0 S, Ice: 0 S, Air: 1 Ha, Earth: 0 S, Poison: 0 Ko, Inv: 1 S, Evo: 2 Ha, Exp: 1! S, HP: -2 Ko, MP: 0 S

In the most extreme cases I took the extreme apt. (Slings, Xbows, Splcast, Polearms) otherwise I just averaged and alternated (if it was 0 and -1; I alternated which race I went with). Exception being Tmut; which takes the Kobold apt because of the removal of mutation resistance. I would also consider buffing the Stat growth farther.

[Magipi]

Just wait for it to hit 27 species, then they -have- to remove them by their own 27 code. Formicids can regain GSC/Rocks to make Ogres obsolete and open up that slot for octocactus

It would be much better to keep ogres and get rid of formicids.

(What is a formicid anyway? Is there such monster in Crawl?)

[TeshiAlair]

My poor formicids have suffered enough. They are one of the most interesting unique races and play so different from everything else *armscrossed*

EDIT: My obsession with Fo may be slightly unhealthy.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

I hated Fo until somewhat recently. They aren't insanely fragile anymore, and removing GSC makes them actually think about weapon choice (and actually use a shield which they really had no reason to with GSCs).

[KoboldLord]

Why in the world would you play Kobold?? It has the same HP aptitude as Gargoyle/Tengu/Deep Elf, and it is the only one of the 4 that doesn't get massive advantages in exchange.

Ha is better in nearly every way (and imo more interesting due to aptitudes).

Kobolds are awesome! Don't forget their poor stats, inability to use top-end weapons, and lack of strong aptitudes other than stealth. Dreadful hp is only one of their many fun and entertaining traits! No need for newbies to jump right into ogres and mummies right away, you know; it's perfectly okay for them to start with something only a little on the weak side. Made of glass with no compensation!

[tasonir]

And that's coming from KoboldLord, the official ambassador of Kobold kind! Honestly, I like kobolds, but halflings are definitely stronger. I do like the carnivore + trog setup, and with their small size and high dex, you can get really good EV without too much trouble. The -20% hp is pretty bad, but most of the rest of it isn't much worse...

They should probably be updated to medium difficulty instead of easy, though (on the wiki).

[Viashino_wizard]

Remove Halfling
Remove Kobold
Add Goblin, a more dark magic based small race, and 10x more interesting than the former two combined.

You know that "Dark Magic" is not actually a thing in crawl, right.

Unless you're talking about Necromancy, in which case we've got enough Ne-leaning races already.

[bcadren]

Unless you're talking about Necromancy, in which case we've got enough Ne-leaning races already.

There aren't any? DE has a +2 Apt; that's the highest. Mummies get a natural enhancer at a 0 apt. So I guess those are the best. You might count that as one or two; but neither is as extreme as Tengu with Air or Vampires with Hexes or Deep Elves (themselves) with Charms.

[Viashino_wizard]

Unless you're talking about Necromancy, in which case we've got enough Ne-leaning races already.

There aren't any? DE has a +2 Apt; that's the highest. Mummies get a natural enhancer at a 0 apt. So I guess those are the best. You might count that as one or two; but neither is as extreme as Tengu with Air or Vampires with Hexes or Deep Elves (themselves) with Charms.

Vampires, Deep Dwarfs, Tengu and Demonspawn also have positive Necromancy aptitudes. Ne is a powerful and versatile school where a lot of the best spells don't require heavy investment, so any species that's good at spellcasting with a positive Ne aptitude makes a great Necromancer.

[duvessa]

Unless you're talking about Necromancy, in which case we've got enough Ne-leaning races already.

There aren't any? DE has a +2 Apt; that's the highest. Mummies get a natural enhancer at a 0 apt. So I guess those are the best. You might count that as one or two; but neither is as extreme as Tengu with Air or Vampires with Hexes or Deep Elves (themselves) with Charms.

63% of species have an above-average necromancy aptitude.