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Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 21:20
by Klown
Chugging along with my character, things going pretty smoothly. I walk around the corner and am killed on the spot. Once the carnage was over(it was practically an animated battle, a flurry of arrows), I saw it was Nessos. Nessos' speed shooting vs. my character's slowness allowed him to drop a few shots into me before I even knew what was happening. I didn't even have one turn to make a move.

Image

Anyone playing Chei should have at least **** by the time they enter Nessos' depth range. It's almost impossible not to with normal species. Such players are in trouble if they meet Nessos. He's a mid game one-hit-kill for such players. It's pretty odd considering the God of time is having time used against him in such a nasty manner.

Proposal: Give Cheibriados a passive time freeze every time a new enemy enters your LOS(kind of like going downstairs and the enemies don't rip you apart instantly, you get a free move.)

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 21:39
by damiac
God that's awful.

Your idea does seem to make some thematic sense for Chei, and would help to negate the worst part of him, the fact that you just don't know what might come into LOS and murderize you with each step

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 21:52
by Bloax
That would be a quite powerful passive ability, and I like powerful passive abilities.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 22:14
by Hirsch I
and a very elegant solution on top of that, IMO.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 22:54
by XuaXua
Alternate passive effect: slow down by a % any attack used against a Cheibi of a certain piety scope.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 10th January 2014, 22:57
by cerebovssquire
XuaXua wrote:Alternate passive effect: slow down by a % any attack used against a Cheibi of a certain piety scope.


I think a Chei character should feel different than a character using Haste (otherwise, he doesn't have much of a reason to exist in the first place). Effects like these feel like they compensate for a lack of literal Haste by giving a character "Haste with a different name" rather than giving them different strengths.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 00:49
by Leafsnail
I quite like the OP proposal, it would be cool if Chei gave you interesting tactical advantages rather than just making your character terrible.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 01:06
by Klown
Ah...maybe this should be moved to GDD then. :?

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 03:38
by pubby
Have none of you heard of stealth?

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 14:17
by Hirsch I
stealth is not infalible, so it does not avoid said problem. but it is pretty good, of course.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 14:56
by tasonir
Chei gives a fairly large stealth boost (+45), although if you're wearing heavy armor that's more than enough to negate the bonus. Most of my encounters with Nessos on Chei characters are that he dies in 1 or 2 slouches and is a total pushover ;) Certainly there is some snipe potential, but I feel like having any decent defenses or health should make it hard for him to kill you before you can slouch...

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 16:09
by duvessa
I don't think "less than a pair of boots" warrants being called "fairly large"...

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 16:21
by Klown
This was D:10, the character was still working on getting it's offense to a minimum. He was 'fairly stealthy'. Honestly, I've had robe-clad pure stabbers with 17 stealth skill and half the monsters got alerted anyways, so I don't think that's a consistent answer.

The proposed fix is a buff to the worst god in the game, and with OHK's built-in for him, he may as well be removed if not fixed. There was no tactical decision, there was a full health-to-no health death within a turn. It's completely against Soup's philosophies.

I don't know if the said buff would have saved me, but I could have blinked away, teleported, and hoped to get out of there before Nessos caught me. A chance is better than none.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 18:12
by moocowmoocow
That does seem unfair... solution sounds interesting.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 11th January 2014, 22:41
by and into
Klown wrote:Proposal: Give Cheibriados a passive time freeze every time a new enemy enters your LOS(kind of like going downstairs and the enemies don't rip you apart instantly, you get a free move.)


That's not a bad idea. As it stands Chei starts punishing you at ------ piety and doesn't start giving you significant benefits until later. Giving him a passive right off the bat that ensures the aut-based time system in Crawl doesn't completely screw you over with no player input would be good. (The goal is for you to be screwed over *despite* your input.) Chei is basically the god of autoexplore, anyway, and this passive would make the interface with that a little more bearable.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Sunday, 12th January 2014, 03:49
by dck
Chei already gives you bend time as soon as you join which is functionally a very weird and awkward haste, although less so in early D.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Sunday, 12th January 2014, 13:54
by Klown
dck wrote:Chei already gives you bend time as soon as you join which is functionally a very weird and awkward haste, although less so in early D.


Doesn't help prevent the death I had though. :)

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Sunday, 12th January 2014, 14:12
by dck
That's why I'm not talking about your death, I'm saying chei does something more than breaking your legs at zero stars nowadays. Of course it's not worth breaking your legs in the first place but that's a different thing.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Sunday, 12th January 2014, 14:28
by pratamawirya
Klown wrote:Ah...maybe this should be moved to GDD then. :?

Nah, it's safer to start it here. :P

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 08:25
by KittenInMyCerealz
I like this.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 09:26
by Bloax
Nessos is rather unlikely to be a oneshotter if you have ~25 EV (which should be about 11 dodging) even if he shoots you five times, so I'm curious as for what this character was besides a mysterious character that took a step and splatted. And I'm saying this because I've walked around vaults with <50% hp (gotta go fast!) with impunity before.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 12:30
by Klown
Bloax wrote:Nessos is rather unlikely to be a oneshotter if you have ~25 EV (which should be about 11 dodging) even if he shoots you five times, so I'm curious as for what this character was besides a mysterious character that took a step and splatted. And I'm saying this because I've walked around vaults with <50% hp (gotta go fast!) with impunity before.


It was a gargoyle conjurer(with robe) on D:11. It was a hybrid so I was training Fi/M&F/Sc/Cj/Ch/Invo on and off throughout the game to that point. He was mowing down everything with ease until the incident. Was trying to get my offense up first(spells with good fail rates & min delay m&f) so his stealth/ev/ac were low at that point.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 13:11
by Lasty
From now on whenever someone talks about how great cheinagas are, I'm going to just quote the original post in this thread.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 14:25
by Klown
Lasty wrote:From now on whenever someone talks about how great cheinagas are, I'm going to just quote the original post in this thread.


I think some believe if you want to play Cheichei, then taking the race already balanced against being slow is one of the better choices available(along with the strong races). I don't think anyone is running around calling cheinagas great or anything. :geek:

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 14:25
by duvessa
Klown wrote:I think some believe if you want to play Cheichei, then taking the race already balanced against being slow is one of the better choices available(along with the strong races).
which is equally wrong

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 14:39
by NessOnett
Lasty wrote:From now on whenever someone talks about how great cheinagas are, I'm going to just quote the original post in this thread.

Ignoring the fact that I could cite this exact same thing happening ten times as often for MiBe(given that they are played considerably more(...the problem is that he wasn't a Naga. If he were, he'd have had ~5o% more health and Nessos would have been sad and dead.

I've been playing Cheinagas almost exclusively for about a week, and I've run into Nessos dozens of times. And every time I take very negligible damage, and then kill in return with a single Slouch(because Nessos' speed can easily be turned into a detriment(.


As to the suggestion in the OP, that would be horrendously broken. The downside of Chei is that you're slow, giving you a passive ability that lets you ignore the major downside in being slow just makes Chei the best God hands down.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 15:18
by Bloax
Klown wrote:It was a gargoyle conjurer (in robe [Why would you even wear a robe on a Chei character.])

Klown wrote:I was trying to get my offense up first.

Klown wrote:It was a hybrid so I was training Fi/M&F/Sc/Cj/Ch/Invo [All these skills! No dodging!]

Klown wrote:It was a GARGOYLE (of Chei) on D:11

Klown wrote:his ev/ac were low at that point.

jesus christ i can splat a troll berserker exclusively training armour and evocations and wonder why trog is such an awful god too

All of this could've been prevented if you had worn some actual armor (scale mail is cheap with +15 str/dex and quite good) and instead of immediately training Spellcasting/Fighting/Charms/Conjurations/Invocations you had just dumped 6 points into Armour and 10 points into Dodging and rocked their socks with lategame defenses.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 15:33
by damiac
Eh, regardless of his poor defenses, getting hit 5 or 6 times by an enemy that you couldn't know about until you make the tragic mistake of moving is rather lame. Would it really be an incredible buff to Chei if enemies could only get 1 or 2 moves off when first coming into LOS?

Any death that can happen from full health while autoexploring seems like something worth preventing to me.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 15:33
by Lasty
NessOnett wrote:Ignoring the fact that I could cite this exact same thing happening ten times as often for MiBe(given that they are played considerably more([...

I'd be surprised if you can find any examples of MiBes being killed from full health on the turn they enter LOS of Nessos, much less ten times as many.

NessOnett wrote:the problem is that he wasn't a Naga. If he were, he'd have had ~5o% more health

I know; of course, Nessos would also have had nearly 50% more actions (20 AUT versus 28 AUT, IIRC), and if Klown were a naga following the same build strategy, they would have had lower AC and EV, but all of that is beside the point.

My point was that in discussions about cheinagas, supporters tend to pretend that move delay doesn't matter because you just choose not to move when monsters are in LOS, and they tend to ignore scenarios like this one where you move into LOS and then suffer as a result of your opponent getting a bunch of free turns before you react, and cheinagas in particular give enemies significantly longer to react in this scenario. Since you tell the OP that removing this entering-LOS-delay penalty would remove the major downside of being slow, I'm guessing we're actually on the same page here.

NessOnett wrote:I've been playing Cheinagas almost exclusively for about a week, and I've run into Nessos dozens of times. And every time I take very negligible damage

There are any number of reasons for this (you built decent defenses, you didn't wake up Nessos immediately on entering LOS, etc.), but they're all beside the point I'm making.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 16:43
by Klown
A long corridor was the only other way(no step from time). For a young level 10 Ga, even if you focused on defense and let magic dart stay at 10% all game(and magically survived to this point), Nessos would run/blink into range and hit you for another ten turns. No way it's possible outside of stealth, and even then you can beat anything except Nessos without it. Those who survive Chei vs. Nessos meet him late-mid game in Swamp instead of early-mid game. Defenses are built and slouch is ready by then on many characters.

Nessos can beat Donald, yet shows up at D:11. He shouldn't be outside of Lair branches imo. Walked into him late-mid game with a 40 AC MiBe in swamp and he forced a retreat. This dude has no right to be in the game so early, and he wrecks most/all other uniques who spawn that early in the arena.

Or Chei needs a fix to prevent being OHK'ed, which isn't supposed to be possible, even on a character who trains evo non-stop and nothing else.
Everyone disses Chei, but they are scared to buff him because on the inside, they know he makes Trog look weak. They fear that one more buff will tip him over the edge and make their years of slander go down the drain. #fear-the-chei

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 16:46
by XuaXua
New idea: Slow Everything in Area

It's like Haste except unlike Haste (which speeds you up), you radiate a slowness field around you that slows down everything in relation to you in diminishing distance.
That doesn't mean that things are as vulnerable. Atoms, electrons, etc. are all slowed down. That makes things more impregnable.
Which means everything slows down to a degree, but gains AC (? GDE, perhaps?) exponentially relative to the factor of slowdown.

There are three ways to do this; everything in LOS is affected equally, things closest are slowest, or things furthest away are slowest.

Things closest being slowest would create a weird continual catch-up effect and might accidentally wall-in the user. Things furthest away being slowest would allow the player to dodge incoming danger while still being capable of dealing with adjacent danger.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 17:32
by Lasty
Klown wrote:Everyone disses Chei, but they are scared to buff him because on the inside, they know he makes Trog look weak. They fear that one more buff will tip him over the edge and make their years of slander go down the drain. #fear-the-chei

I'm pretty sure you're joking, but just so it's clear: I actually like Chei, and I think that Chei is fine as-is. The two things I don't like about Chei are 1) having it come up in so many unrelated advice threads, and 2) having to correct the strange insistence that if you're already slow it doesn't matter how much slower you get, and both of those are really features of certain players rather than the god itself.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 17:33
by damiac
What does that do to help in this situation? You'd have to know you were about to walk into Nessos, and activate the ability.

I think it's fairly reasonable for Chei to make your enemies stop and take notice when they first see you, walking around in slow motion. Hell, I'll go a step further than my original proposal and suggest that when enemies first enter LOS (When they trigger the message about seeing them) they end their turn, and can't do anything until the Chei follower takes a turn. That means the autoexplore into scary monsters isn't instant death for chei followers, but they still can't reposition well in combat. And they can't just kite things at edge of LOS, because the stop is only triggered the first time.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 17:36
by duvessa
just remove rmsl/dmsl spells and make dmsl a chei passive

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 17:38
by Hirsch I
it is already qazal's.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 17:57
by damiac
Qazal only gets RMSL, unless something's changed recently.

You could say Chei slows enemy projectiles down, making them easier to dodge. Or better yet, just make chei apply a debuff to all enemy ranged attacks, although that might be a bit of a huge buff to chei.

None of this helps if you autoexplore around a corner and get murderized by an executioner or something, but that's a lot more rare then walking into LOS of a ranged monster.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 18:19
by Klown
passive reflection & dfms #suck-it-nessos

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 18:41
by damiac
OK, let's be serious here.

FR: Chei autokills nessos on entering LOS because he hates him for being so fast

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 18:44
by Fizybubbleh
Your charachter died to poor defenses. You are supposed to wear heavy armor since Chei reduces penalties with the high str and int. You were also not working on your defenses on a slow charachter which depends on having insane EV+AC to survive. GR of Chei is a broken combo. You are supposed to make up for the fact that monsters can hit you "6 times" with being able to get absurd levels of survival.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 18:51
by XuaXua
What if Chei gives a passive effect (starting a *** and increasing in power with each *) that at *****, any missile launched at the player's current position is treated as though it were traveling at OOD speeds? If the player moves, the missile follows through to his prior position.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 19:12
by damiac
Fizybubbleh wrote:Your charachter died to poor defenses. You are supposed to wear heavy armor since Chei reduces penalties with the high str and int. You were also not working on your defenses on a slow charachter which depends on having insane EV+AC to survive. GR of Chei is a broken combo. You are supposed to make up for the fact that monsters can hit you "6 times" with being able to get absurd levels of survival.


Where are you getting this? Who says you're 'supposed to wear heavy armor'. Nessos is one of those unique threats in the game, and very few characters can just shrug off 6 arrows from him in one turn.

That's not to say that character wouldn't have been better off with better defenses, but that's seperate from the weird issue of walking into Nessos' LOS and taking 6 hits before you get a chance to respond.

You should get to take at least one action in between pressing 'o' and dying. I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 19:47
by duvessa
Fizybubbleh wrote:You are supposed to wear heavy armor since Chei reduces penalties with the high str and int.
this is very not true
getting no dodging/spells with chei is pretty silly but there are lots of chei characters that shouldn't wear heavy armour

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Friday, 23rd May 2014, 23:15
by Hopeless
Klown wrote:A long corridor was the only other way(no step from time). For a young level 10 Ga, even if you focused on defense and let magic dart stay at 10% all game(and magically survived to this point), Nessos would run/blink into range and hit you for another ten turns. No way it's possible outside of stealth, and even then you can beat anything except Nessos without it. Those who survive Chei vs. Nessos meet him late-mid game in Swamp instead of early-mid game. Defenses are built and slouch is ready by then on many characters.

Nessos can beat Donald, yet shows up at D:11. He shouldn't be outside of Lair branches imo. Walked into him late-mid game with a 40 AC MiBe in swamp and he forced a retreat. This dude has no right to be in the game so early, and he wrecks most/all other uniques who spawn that early in the arena.

Or Chei needs a fix to prevent being OHK'ed, which isn't supposed to be possible, even on a character who trains evo non-stop and nothing else.
Everyone disses Chei, but they are scared to buff him because on the inside, they know he makes Trog look weak. They fear that one more buff will tip him over the edge and make their years of slander go down the drain. #fear-the-chei


You definitely had some bad luck with an extremely out of depth monster. But the low to no defenses is hard to excuse.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 01:22
by bcadren
Currently playing a SpEn of Chei. Killed Nessos without waking him. (Stabkill). *Shrug*

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 02:04
by tasonir
damiac wrote:Eh, regardless of his poor defenses, getting hit 5 or 6 times by an enemy that you couldn't know about until you make the tragic mistake of moving is rather lame. Would it really be an incredible buff to Chei if enemies could only get 1 or 2 moves off when first coming into LOS?

This is an incredible exaggeration. A gargoyle of chei moves at 20 aut, and nessos has speed 15, so he would get 3 attacks. If 3 arrows can kill you from full health you have done something terribly wrong in the defenses department.

I recently had a death sort of like this - there was a rat about 4-5 tiles away from me in lair around a corner, so I rapidly hit tab about 3 times to go towards it and fight. The first step I took exposed the rest of the room around the corner, which had an oklob plant. I was already inside the exclusion area, so my next tab happily moved me further into it, and the third press means I took a total of 60 auts of actions in sight of an oklob plant. I was, of course, dead. The corrective action I took was to check my RC file and set the limit on being allowed to tab to 50% health instead of 30%. I really can't imagine it happening in one keypress unless you have absolutely no durability. It's theoretically possible, I just doubt the practicality of it.

Regardless if you want to buff chei I support all buffs to my favorite god. Quick, make the +stats 20 at max piety, that'll be good. And also the deflect missiles, it doesn't step on Qaz because he has repel.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 13:11
by Bloax
It's definitely an exaggeration, because I play outright suicidally all the time (resting is for wusses) and I've never (read: never) been shot dead from taking a step into the LOS of something, even at low hp.
Now, of course it might be possible with a naga of Chei with terrible defenses - but if you were going naga and Chei you would be mad not to pump defenses. (10 Dodging brings you to around 20 EV, quite respectably.)

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 13:19
by Klown
A level 10 NaCj can hit 10 dodging skill?

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 13:57
by Bloax
No, but what is an XL10 NaCj doing in D:11?

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 16:56
by NessOnett
Lasty wrote:
Klown wrote:Everyone disses Chei, but they are scared to buff him because on the inside, they know he makes Trog look weak. They fear that one more buff will tip him over the edge and make their years of slander go down the drain. #fear-the-chei

I'm pretty sure you're joking, but just so it's clear: I actually like Chei, and I think that Chei is fine as-is. The two things I don't like about Chei are 1) having it come up in so many unrelated advice threads, and 2) having to correct the strange insistence that if you're already slow it doesn't matter how much slower you get, and both of those are really features of certain players rather than the god itself.

If something is coming at you faster than you can run away from it, then your options are to fight, or to use other methods of escape(like tele/blink/etc(. And it that context, it does not matter how much slower you are.

It's akin to wearing a plate mail on level 1. And then claiming that you don't want to use a shield because it would inhibit your spell casting(ignoring the fact that the plate mail has already caused 1OO% fail rate for all your spells(. That tactical avenue has already been eliminated, to the point where further crippling it does not actually matter.


That said, there are tons of other reasons besides the mere running example where Chei slowing you down does have a very visible negative impact. I don't think anyone is seriously trying to argue that. But in terms of that singular dimension, which is a major weakness of Chei, Nagas are less negatively affected because they already fail the footrace(tailrace?( against so many things. But obviously still somewhat affected because things like slugs that you could previously outrun, you suddenly can't.

tl;dr CheiNaga is a strong and natural coupling.

Re: Nessos vs. Cheibriados

PostPosted: Saturday, 24th May 2014, 17:04
by vengefulcarrot
NessOnett wrote:
Lasty wrote:
Klown wrote:Everyone disses Chei, but they are scared to buff him because on the inside, they know he makes Trog look weak. They fear that one more buff will tip him over the edge and make their years of slander go down the drain. #fear-the-chei

I'm pretty sure you're joking, but just so it's clear: I actually like Chei, and I think that Chei is fine as-is. The two things I don't like about Chei are 1) having it come up in so many unrelated advice threads, and 2) having to correct the strange insistence that if you're already slow it doesn't matter how much slower you get, and both of those are really features of certain players rather than the god itself.

If something is coming at you faster than you can run away from it, then your options are to fight, or to use other methods of escape(like tele/blink/etc(. And it that context, it does not matter how much slower you are.

It's akin to wearing a plate mail on level 1. And then claiming that you don't want to use a shield because it would inhibit your spell casting(ignoring the fact that the plate mail has already caused 1OO% fail rate for all your spells(. That tactical avenue has already been eliminated, to the point where further crippling it does not actually matter.


That said, there are tons of other reasons besides the mere running example where Chei slowing you down does have a very visible negative impact. I don't think anyone is seriously trying to argue that. But in terms of that singular dimension, which is a major weakness of Chei, Nagas are less negatively affected because they already fail the footrace(tailrace?( against so many things. But obviously still somewhat affected because things like slugs that you could previously outrun, you suddenly can't.

tl;dr CheiNaga is a strong and natural coupling.


Chei slowing me down had a very positive impact on my life, I learnt how to take it easy. That's the key to chei.