Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills


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Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 15:17

Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

Ok, I'm just spit balling here, but what do you guys think of a character who doesn't train skills? What would that look like? How would it work? What would it look like? I'm curious to see what other people might come up with, it sounds pretty interesting to me. :)
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 15:53

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

It wouldn't be nearly as interesting as it sounds. Any character would still need a way to become stronger (unless you want to upset the whole balance of the game), so there would be a mechanic for this character to become stronger. It wouldn't be called "skills", but it would have the same underlying principle, because the game has been developed with the assumption that every character will become gradually stronger.
If somehow you managed to develop a race that doesn't need that sort of mechanic, I would just worship Yredelemnul all day long because bone dragons don't care about my skills. It's also probable that it would depend on finding strong items, and thus the player would more affected by chance than strategy, which isn't very satisfying.
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 16:02

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

cerebovssquire wrote:It wouldn't be nearly as interesting as it sounds. Any character would still need a way to become stronger (unless you want to upset the whole balance of the game), so there would be a mechanic for this character to become stronger. It wouldn't be called "skills", but it would have the same underlying principle, because the game has been developed with the assumption that every character will become gradually stronger.
If somehow you managed to develop a race that doesn't need that sort of mechanic, I would just worship Yredelemnul all day long because bone dragons don't care about my skills. It's also probable that it would depend on finding strong items, and thus the player would more affected by chance than strategy, which isn't very satisfying.


Hmm, in my mind, this kind of character would be sort of similar to demigods in that they are incredibly strong all around, but lack specialization. Perhaps it would be a mechanic where taking damage would effectively be like a kind of draining, so you would have to monitor how much damage you sustain from each battle(similar to deep dwarves).
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 16:11

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

That would be really annoying. You know how a deep dwarf not worshipping Elyvilon or Makhleb plays? You have to be painstakingly careful all the time. Once you join Elyvilon or Makhleb, it becomes tolerable. This would be like a deep dwarf except there's no Elyvilon or Makhleb for gaining XP.

Dg doesn't lack specialisation (or shouldn't, if you are playing Dg right*). It is just more up to the player and the item drops what area they specialise in, due to balanced apts and no guaranteed good items/spells from gods. Maybe they are better generalists than deep elves or minotaurs, but they are still leagues away from a "no skills" race. Again, that kind of race would depend on item drops to the extent of strategy barely playing a role anymore.

*meaning that Dg, just like any other race, is best at the playstyle of "focus on one way to deal damage, find ways to prevent damage, and get a source of haste", which applies to every race except Formicid.

Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 17:13

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

New species: Benjamin Button

You start at level 27 with all skills highly trained, but your char lvl and skill lvls decay rapidly with turn count. Could still have species aptitudes, they just determine how quickly or slowly your skills decay relative to each other.
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 18:19

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

and into wrote:You start at level 27 with all skills highly trained, but your char lvl and skill lvls decay rapidly with turn count. Could still have species aptitudes, they just determine how quickly or slowly your skills decay relative to each other.


We've discussed species that gain bad mutations as they level up, to be offset by some benefit (great apts?). We've also discussed a species that starts with a boatload of bad mutations and loses them over time.

cerebovssquire wrote:It wouldn't be nearly as interesting as it sounds. Any character would still need a way to become stronger (unless you want to upset the whole balance of the game), so there would be a mechanic for this character to become stronger. It wouldn't be called "skills", but it would have the same underlying principle, because the game has been developed with the assumption that every character will become gradually stronger.


It's definitely a workable concept, Brogue gets by without skills, but I think it would be a huge stretch within crawl. Too much of the game is linked to skills. Suppose we made a race that just uniformly gained skills as it leveled up. Given crawl's design, there would be a fine line between useless generalist and brokenly overpowered.

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 18:26

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

It could be a species that would act like an EXP potion every time you level up. You get no skill points for what you kill, you only get it when you level up. This would be bulk distribution with a stepping trigger. Once you hit LV27 you would be locked into the skills you have gained and can gain no more. It could be enough to at least level 3 skills up to LV27 if you only dedicated points to those skills.
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 18:43

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

brendan wrote:It's definitely a workable concept, Brogue gets by without skills, but I think it would be a huge stretch within crawl. Too much of the game is linked to skills. Suppose we made a race that just uniformly gained skills as it leveled up. Given crawl's design, there would be a fine line between useless generalist and brokenly overpowered.


Sure, I meant just within the context of crawl. Uniformly gaining skills certainly sounds more interesting than no skills, but I still think you would have too little strategic influence on your character. You would just decide which items and spells are the best for the current state of the game, and very little you do would have a lasting impact on the strength on your character (clogging up spell slots without enough ?amnesia and wasting enchant scrolls, basically).
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 20:47

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

It is indeed quite a crazy proposal. Yiufed.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 20:47

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

It could be purely percentage-based specie. One that has 100% HP, deals x% damage with attack, has y% chance to dodge, diminishes incoming attacks with z% AC and so on. Roughly, it'll make giant bat and unseen horror almost equal threats for such character, will remove "popcorn" enemies from the game entirely and will make you care not about monster's HD but only about unique characteristics and abilities it possess.

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 21:58

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

All your skills are equal to your overall XL, and you have a terrible leveling apt. Starting out is awful, but you eventually become an overpowered steamroller of doom.
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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 22:22

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

Perhaps it could be interesting to have a species which allows player to change skills almost instantly and without any penalties. Aptitudes should be below average of course. For example: found cloak of darkness? It takes 10 turns to downgrade Polearms 14 back to 0 and upgrade Evocations to 10. Found Bolt of Fire? Spend another 10 turns to bring Evocations back to 0 and get some Fire/Conjurations instead.
Such species would be extremely versatile and would enjoy using the most powerful tools it finds.

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Post Wednesday, 25th December 2013, 22:29

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

epsilon wrote:It could be purely percentage-based specie. One that has 100% HP, deals x% damage with attack, has y% chance to dodge, diminishes incoming attacks with z% AC and so on. Roughly, it'll make giant bat and unseen horror almost equal threats for such character, will remove "popcorn" enemies from the game entirely and will make you care not about monster's HD but only about unique characteristics and abilities it possess.


Sounds like it is going to either be ridiculously weak (dying to every orc in the orcish mines) or ridiculously strong (able to speedrun very effectively since it doesn't care about leveling) depending on how these percentages pan out.
It also seems very metagamey. It's somewhat interesting mathematically, but how would you justify a percentage-based creature existing in a fantasy world that at least tries to be convincing? Ash's xp multiplier was removed for being too metagamey iirc and this is like ten times more extreme.

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Post Thursday, 26th December 2013, 07:32

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

cerebovssquire wrote:It's somewhat interesting mathematically, but how would you justify a percentage-based creature existing in a fantasy world that at least tries to be convincing?.

For example, something along the lines:
"Avatars, champions of the Balance.
Mysterious beings rumored to protect the Universe's balance itself and to be summoned whenever it could be irreversibly shaken
Despite having access to virtually limitless powers of the whole Universe, Avatars can use only minimal amount enough for their current mission to not affect the Balance themselves.
Seeing the Orb of ZoT as one of threats to the very existence of the Universe, Avatars appeared in the Dungeon."

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Post Friday, 27th December 2013, 11:22

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

cerebovssquire wrote:It's somewhat interesting mathematically, but how would you justify a percentage-based creature existing in a fantasy world that at least tries to be convincing?


Just how does crawl try to be convincing? There is zero backstory on anything. Someone has hidden runes that no-one actually needs to get to the orb in hells. Monsters spawn from thin air for no apparent reason (if had go on all the time, the dungeon would be totally filled by the point when adventurer enters it. Especially since all monsters like eachother with very minor exceptions). There is a toenail golem!!! List goes on forever.

But I think that crawl doesn't need to be convincing in any way. It's an easy little game where you come to have some fun. Not to play a detailed plot in convincing fantasy world.
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Post Friday, 27th December 2013, 11:32

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

I agree with what you said about crawl not needing to be convincing but unfortunately the devs seem have a different opinion (if I remember correctly, ashenzari's old exp multiplier was removed for being too metagamey, I could be misremembering this though - and I know that dpeg, for instance, cares a lot about flavour).

I would enjoy a percentage-based species were it not for the fact that crawl's monster spawning rates don't really work with the way the race was intended. Just for án example, how bad would orc packs be if every orc was just as bad as the knight? So you would have to make the percentages good enough for that to not be a crippling issue, and then fights which should be challenging (like basically every fight against a single or few strong monster) suddenly aren't any more.
Not to mention that I could walk into 3 rune branches, get the runes and go straight to Zot unless I am misunderstanding the proposal, maybe first getting some rF if resistances still work (and probably some piety too).

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Post Saturday, 28th December 2013, 19:07

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

One idea would be a species that cannot gain skills, but gained random species-specific beneficial mutations of increasing strength as time goes on. Starting at lower power (with hunger cost) but increasing in power as time goes on. Right now we have spit poison 1-3.. with this species maybe it tops out at 5 ranks of power.

What are some mutation ideas?




unarmed combat appendages

Scorpion tail - gives damage + poison
Flaming talons - damage + fire
Icy Fangs - damage + ice
Electric Claws - damage + elec


Random Spell abilities: (with breath cooldown)

Call Firestorm - this could start as throw flame at rank 1, become bolt of fire at rank 3, firestorm at rank 5
Shatter - starting at very low power would be
Blizzard - starts as throw icicle/bolt of frost
Crystal Spear stone arrow, then iron shot, then crystal spear
Chain Lightning starts as static discharge then lightning bolt..


Utility mutations

Passwall
Dig
Apportation
Blink (controlled blink at full power)
Haste
Swift
Repel Missiles (deflect missiles at full power)


This is just a partial brainstorm, but the challenge of the race could be the inability to choose specialization and having to work with the mutations that you get. Maybe you get a different mutation every 2 levels, with a potential of having 13-14 mutations by level 27. Inability to train skills would be a serious handicap to offset some of the potential epicness of these abilities.
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Post Tuesday, 7th January 2014, 21:47

Re: Crazy proposal: a species who doesn't train skills

(I typed for two hours and then lost it all. Nice)

How about a golem that assimilates items and monsters and takes on some of their skills/attributes? You start out as boring humanoid construct with average stats across the board, and no redeeming qualities to speak of. As you eat different items and monsters throughout the dungeon, you acquire skills and bodily features based on what you've decided to consume.
I realize this could get complicated really quickly, so I came up with a system to try to make it work.

When assimilating entities, there are two categories you'll take into account: skills and attributes

Skills:

Golems would have a skill system similar to other races, but would improve quickly and dependent on what creatures and items you assimilate. When you eat a rat, for instance, your speed rises. When you eat a hobgoblin, your fighting rises. When you eat a spellcaster or magical items, your spellcasting improves. When you eat heavy armor, your AC rises. Your skills with weapons depends on weapons and weapon wielding enemies you've consumed, and so on.
Eventually you're going to wind up with some kind of specialization; tanky, dodgy, speedy, stealthy, a spellcaster or fighter. As you become proficient in a few different skills, your other skills will begin to drop. If you decide you're got too much speed and want to be tankier, you can absorb some armor and tanky monsters, increasing your health and AC and reducing your speed. This allows you to change specializations over time, and tailor your skillset based on attributes you may acquire.

Attributes

Attributes are creature specific features that a golem can attain by assimilating different monsters. Attributes are basically mutations you acquire based on all the different creatures you've assimilated. For simplicities sake, it can be broken down into a point system. For instance, when you eat a kobold, you'll gain +1 point towards "agile" attributes. When you've gathered enough agile points, you get 1 random mutation from the list of agile attributes: keen eyes, sneaky, small, nimble fingers, etc. Some monsters would have multiple attribute points, and some very specific. For instance, a centaur would give +1 towards some agile attributes, but also +1 towards quadruped and furry. A slime would give +1 to slimy, pseudopod and gelatinous body. If you're maxed out on physical attributes but acquire enough points to get another, one will disappear at random and you'll get a new one in its place. Body types are more significant and should be more difficult to change. I broke attributes into 3 categories:


Physical: limit 4-6 at a time (I grouped some into categories)
Carapace
Keen eyes, nimble fingers, limber, sneaky
Strong limbs, robust, massive
Scaly, furry, slimy, moldy
Cold blooded
Various resistances
Horns, claws, beak, hooves, antennae

Body: 1 at a time
Fleshy
Undead
Gelatinous
Frozen
Fiery
Vegetable
Rock/metal
Incorporeal
Aquatic

Morphology:
Quadruped
Wings
Third arm
Tail
Tentacle
Pseudopod


And last but not least, two innate abilities:
Assimilate: Attempt to consume a monster. Fails against stronger monsters. Useful for monsters that leave no corpse
Autotomize: Tear off any morphological mutations you've acquired, at the cost of 15% max health and permanently losing the limb (but not preventing you from gaining more). The limb will remain alive and actively fight monsters for several turns.

I realize the idea is a bit complicated but I had fun writing it up. It might be a nightmare from a coding standpoint, but from a player perspective it's pretty simple: you eat the creatures you think are cool, and become more like them. I really like the concept of demonspawns and jiyva. Golems would be a sort of combination of the two but with less randomness and with some ability to control how your character turns out.

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