Remove Haste as a spell.

[Hirsch I]

1- Unlimited sources of haste are problematic, to say the least. it is a very powerful effect, both for escaping or destroying
your enemies, and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is normally worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times, and did not stopped being a must for almost every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision, for most builds. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it. also, it reduces the number of options for any character: the XP used to train charms will not be used creatively, to adapt the character to the situations it found.

3- potions of speed and wands of hasting are adequate substitutes, and limited, so hasting yourself before every tough fight is not an option.

4-it can stay as a monster spell, so the changes that need to be done are minimal.


of course, it will make the game significantly harder. but nobrainers like that should be combated, no matter what.

EDIT: reduced the generalizations for clarity.

[Wahaha]

and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is always worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times,
and did not stopped being a must for every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it.

The other thread has clearly shown that this is not true.

[Tiktacy]

and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is always worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times,
and did not stopped being a must for every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it.

The other thread has clearly shown that this is not true.

And what about the rest of what was said?

Personally, I think a removal of haste is warranted in enough ways to at least test out, just to see how it affects gameplay.

[sardonica]

and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is always worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times,
and did not stopped being a must for every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it.

The other thread has clearly shown that this is not true.

And what about the rest of what was said?

Personally, I think a removal of haste is warranted in enough ways to at least test out, just to see how it affects gameplay.

I can think of one way to test out playing without haste. Not memorizing haste.

[Tiktacy]

I can think of one way to test out playing without haste. Not memorizing haste.

Exactly!

[duvessa]

and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is always worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times,
and did not stopped being a must for every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it.

The other thread has clearly shown that this is not true.

And what about the rest of what was said?

Soundness of an argument does not require that at least one of its premises be true. It requires that all of the premises be true.

[Hirsch I]

I can think of one way to test out playing without haste. Not memorizing haste.

some people may want to do that, but as long as haste is still avaliable, most players will still use it, so the information we could get from that is limited, and unreliable. I think we should remove it in trunk, to gather data. it is what trunk is for, isn't it?

[dck]

and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is always worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times,
and did not stopped being a must for every character that can possibly cast it.

2- it does not provide a decision. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it.

The other thread has clearly shown that this is not true.

And what about the rest of what was said?

3 is wrong because if there's anything problematic at all regarding haste in any of its forms it's /haste being the best item in the game, and even that is really not a problem and changes how the game develops in interesting ways
4 just doesn't mean anything because when something is nerfed monsters keep the old versions anyway, see BoP.

This crusade against haste is ridiculous and based on nothing more than poor understanding of the game.

[sardonica]

People come up with a million complicated ways to eliminate haste, when the fact is that most top players say it's fine, and fewer than half of the 0.13 tourney even bothered with it.

Maybe just make it level 7 and see what happens? but seriously, I don't understand why people worry so much about one spell.

[varsovie]

People come up with a million complicated ways to eliminate haste, when the fact is that most top players say it's fine, and fewer than half of the 0.13 tourney even bothered with it.

Maybe just make it level 7 and see what happens? but seriously, I don't understand why people worry so much about one spell.

Because it's the most boring one, and yet it's the best* spell and has virtually no consequences. And that is still true after the recent nerfs and nerfing it more will only reduce it's availability, render it useless or let the status quo of "the best spell".

It's not by any mean necessary to win, and often if you don't have any apt in CHA, by the time you get it you already steam roll everything. But it is still better to steamroll everything faster when doing pan though...

I'd rather remove it in a permanent form, or making it such as you can't spam it "no brainer". Like making it a god ability with a piety cost, or a 50% increase in MP cost while hasted.

But yeah removing it from trunk, even to try is a good idea IMHO. Yes some people will cry, but after a while we may get more objective review and some statistics.


*Best because every character can use it and has great versatility. Sure other spells like shatter might gives you a better chance of winning, but they require a dedicated strategy to work.

[Hirsch I]

thanks, varsovie. that was exactly my point, you could explain it better than me.

[Tiktacy]

Whether haste is the best thing since sliced bread or just good doesn't matter. It's versatile and can be used by any character, but it is boring but good, that is a bad combo.

Imagine if sticky flame wasn't a point blank attack, that would remove the idea of the "potential risk" that goes along with its incredible offensive capability in early-mid game. It would also make it boring, it would no longer be "should I use this or fireball?" It will always be "this" and that would make it a no brainer.

But maybe that isn't the best example in the world. How about this: imagine if mass confusion always worked, but had a cool down. Why would you ever not want to use that spell when facing a difficult group of enemies? That is the problem with haste, there is no reason not to use it when in a bind.

Granted, this can be true with other spells like BR, but BR takes quite a bit of mana to use and a considerably larger investment(on top of having steep cost). Also, you can't use it while worshipping fedhas, trog, TSO, Zin, or Ely, all of which are relatively high on the list of gods crawl has to offer.

But maybe I'm getting a little side tracked, the point is, haste is boring, so we should remove it or make it more interesting(or both).

[Mumcon]

1- Unlimited sources of haste are problematic, to say the least. it is a very powerful effect, both for escaping or destroying
your enemies, and it does not matter which build you are playing, it is normally worth the investment. the spell was nerfed several times, and did not stopped being a must for almost every character that can possibly cast it.

I don't think Haste is too powerful. Being able to get in more actions essentially just lets you win in some battles where before you only had a narrow margin of victory. Any good spell can make you suddenly feel more powerful after you learn it and start to use it--for example, Sticky Flame or Fireball. The player is strong in Crawl, but Crawl still offers plenty of challenges.

When you "normally worth the investment"... I think that might be your own bias (for example, if you play a lot of spellcasters with nice aptitudes). I think you should come up with statistics that support such a claim (or define it better in the first place). sardonica's citation of the 0.13 tourney is a statistic that counters your statement.

2- it does not provide a decision, for most builds. you will want to get the spell sooner or later, the only choice is when to do it. also, it reduces the number of options for any character: the XP used to train charms will not be used creatively, to adapt the character to the situations it found.

Putting experience into a skill is a fine decision. Say, if you play a centaur hunter, you might think of that as getting bows skill + fast 2 mutation (potentially a similar effect to Haste) in exchange for lower spell-related aptitudes (similar to having put experience into spellcasting and charms). But you don't say "It's a given I want to choose a centaur hunter for my combo". You might as well complain that playing a DEFE is a nobrainer because of course you'll aim for Fireball Fire Storm etc.

3- potions of speed and wands of hasting are adequate substitutes, and limited, so hasting yourself before every tough fight is not an option.

4-it can stay as a monster spell, so the changes that need to be done are minimal.

(These aren't reasons to make the change, they are just minor comments on why such-and-such wouldn't cause a problem if the player Haste spell were removed.)

Maybe it's true that every or nearly every spellcasting-oriented species has decent enough combined spellcasting+charms aptitudes that if you're training spellcasting anyway, the strategic benefit of Haste is worth the investment at a certain point in the game (in most cases). So? That's far from every species, and far from every type of game that people may play within that species. And as I alluded to before, even if you know you will want to learn it, knowing when to devote experience to something is always a huge strategic challenge, given how every combo is different and every game within that combo is different. And Haste does have strategic value. Just like the basic act of moving around tactically to control line of sight in Crawl is something every player can utilize, Haste increases the amount of actions you can take but what actions you take are up to you (and are the chief factor in determining whether you live or die).

When articulating a proposed change, people are often prompted to answer "What does this fix?", but rather than simply trying to say what about the spell needs fixed, I think it's worthwhile to describe a specific experience of yours where Crawl (as it is now) let you down. I have invested in Haste many times before, but I have never felt "Wow, it was so obvious to start to train for Haste now" or "Wow, now that I've learned Haste Crawl is easy". Maybe I'm just not enough of a Crawl master to make the most of Haste... I think that Haste is a well-designed spell because learning it lets me deal with a broader variety of threats, but far from every threat.

[Hirsch I]

I don't think Haste is too powerful. Being able to get in more actions essentially just lets you win in some battles where before you only had a narrow margin of victory. Any good spell can make you suddenly feel more powerful after you learn it and start to use it--for example, Sticky Flame or Fireball. The player is strong in Crawl, but Crawl still offers plenty of challenges.

the point is not it being too powerfull. is that every non chei non trog character would benefit from that. does not matter if you are a melee nut in full plate or a pure blaster. you will benefit from haste, and it is normally optimal to train for it. I read respected players like Duvessa say more than once that not learning haste if you find it is probably a mistake. this is not the case with sticky flame for example. it was the case with old swiftness, but I cant think of any other spell that works for just about everyone. also, it is boring. far too boring for such a powerful effect.

Putting experience into a skill is a fine decision. Say, if you play a centaur hunter, you might think of that as getting bows skill + fast 2 mutation (potentially a similar effect to Haste) in exchange for lower spell-related aptitudes (similar to having put experience into spellcasting and charms). But you don't say "It's a given I want to choose a centaur hunter for my combo". You might as well complain that playing a DEFE is a nobrainer because of course you'll aim for Fireball Fire Storm etc.

now you are being silly. learning a spell with chosing a species are completely different things. and fast 2 is NOT perma hasting. also, the point is that putting XP on charms is optimal much more often than not if you found haste anywhere.

I think it's worthwhile to describe a specific experience of yours where Crawl (as it is now) let you down

my individual experience with the game matters not. the important thing is "will the game benefit from the removal?". I do believe it will. a boring but often optimal spell only makes the game less varied, and those kinds of nobrainers are specifically against crawl philosophy, IIRC.
experimenting in trunk to see exactly how the game will change with the removal is not a big deal, and will provide us some useful data, even if the devs decide to put it back. there is nothing to lose.

[Sar]

I cant think of any other spell that works for just about everyone

Charms, Translocations.

[varsovie]

I cant think of any other spell that works for just about everyone

Charms, Translocations.

Divinity...

[Sar]

You mean Divinations? I believe someone already explained why were they removed: they were non-combat spells, which was problematic.

[Tiktacy]

I see a lot of backlash from "experienced" players going on here, and my big question for you is "why is haste so good the way it is?" I mean, what exactly does it add to the game that makes it worth fighting so much for? It's a cool spell the first time you use it, but it gets boring fast, and loses a lot of its charm after the third or fourth time using it IMO.

It is true that there are other spells that all characters would want, but that doesn't pertain to the main issue. Haste is a no brainer, blink, swiftness, apportation, and repel missile are not(ok maybe repel missile is, but that significantly loses it's appeal by end game IMO).

Instead of giving backlash, purhaps you could try and make some kind of compromise and suggest a usable idea?

[cerebovssquire]

I see a lot of backlash from "experienced" players going on here, and my big question for you is "why is haste so good the way it is?" I mean, what exactly does it add to the game that makes it worth fighting so much for? It's a cool spell the first time you use it, but it gets boring fast, and loses a lot of its charm after the third or fourth time using it IMO.

It is true that there are other spells that all characters would want, but that doesn't pertain to the main issue. Haste is a no brainer, blink, swiftness, apportation, and repel missile are not(ok maybe repel missile is, but that significantly loses it's appeal by end game IMO).

Instead of giving backlash, purhaps you could try and make some kind of compromise and suggest a usable idea?

It adds balance. A lot of the late game (correctly) assumes that you have a source of haste, both in Zot and in extended. It also is one of the reasons why turncount speedruns work.

[Sandman25]

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

[MrPlanck]

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

I am not a very good player so it may not be all that surprising to know that I do not find casting haste to be a no-brainer. I often do not cast it unless I think it is absolutely necessary because I don't want to cast it too soon and have it run out when I need it most, or may want to cast a different contaminating spell (invis) and do not want to risk mutation. Or I get a nasty contamination miscast effect in the hells and don't want to stack haste on that. Or I want to save the mp for damage spells because I have -20% MP mutation. All of these happen. So I do not think it is automatically automatic.

[Tiktacy]

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

I would have to agree with this, but only to a certain extent. You were asked to stop posting in GDD because you weren't being enough of an asshole, that seems to be the major requirement to be heard around here(either that, or a colored name).

Anyway, balancing monsters based on haste is pretty silly, I mean, I can understand why haste is a good way to balance the game, but it makes it feel like every game is the same to me and it diminishes the replay value. Why can't we just remove haste? Berserk exists, as does wand of hasting and potions of speed, isn't that enough? I mean, the worst that could happen is an increase in difficulty in the late game(where the game becomes very very easy), is that really such a terrible thing for crawl?

[archaeo]

Bah! Humbug!

[Mumcon]

the point is not it being too powerfull. is that every non chei non trog character would benefit from that. does not matter if you are a melee nut in full plate or a pure blaster. you will benefit from haste, and it is normally optimal to train for it. I read respected players like Duvessa say more than once that not learning haste if you find it is probably a mistake. this is not the case with sticky flame for example. it was the case with old swiftness, but I cant think of any other spell that works for just about everyone. also, it is boring. far too boring for such a powerful effect.

now you are being silly. learning a spell with chosing a species are completely different things. and fast 2 is NOT perma hasting. also, the point is that putting XP on charms is optimal much more often than not if you found haste anywhere.

my individual experience with the game matters not. the important thing is "will the game benefit from the removal?". I do believe it will. a boring but often optimal spell only makes the game less varied, and those kinds of nobrainers are specifically against crawl philosophy, IIRC.
experimenting in trunk to see exactly how the game will change with the removal is not a big deal, and will provide us some useful data, even if the devs decide to put it back. there is nothing to lose.

Hirsch I: After reading your reply, I conclude that I still can't follow your reasoning.

Okay, so it's not about how powerful it is. But the rest of your argument seems to miss the point. I already mentioned how saying that something will definitely benefit from something doesn't mean there isn't choice involved in it or that it doesn't require strategy to make the most of. And you tend to keep using phrases like "normally optimal" and "optimal much more often" that are quite subjective and don't make a strong point. I think you should understand that it's hard to build pressure to change an established feature without a very solid justification.

Maybe the real difference between our perspectives is about whether Haste is "boring". (To clarify, nobrainer means it has adds no strategic complexity to Crawl, which is not necessarily everyone's definition of the word boring.) I don't think Haste is one bit boring. When I first heard of Haste, I thought "So I can do more in less time; well, that's simple," but soon realized that its strategic depth betrayed its simplicity. Perhaps my linking to the Mastermind motto was a bit too subtle.

I see a lot of backlash from "experienced" players going on here, and my big question for you is "why is haste so good the way it is?" I mean, what exactly does it add to the game that makes it worth fighting so much for? It's a cool spell the first time you use it, but it gets boring fast, and loses a lot of its charm after the third or fourth time using it IMO.

It is true that there are other spells that all characters would want, but that doesn't pertain to the main issue. Haste is a no brainer, blink, swiftness, apportation, and repel missile are not(ok maybe repel missile is, but that significantly loses it's appeal by end game IMO).

Instead of giving backlash, purhaps you could try and make some kind of compromise and suggest a usable idea?

Well, it's clever to want to put "pro-Haste" players on the defensive, but that's not how Crawl development works. It's hard to add to or remove stuff from Crawl. You need to strongly justify changes.

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

I wouldn't typically call fighting an orb of fire boring. You might as well say that the fact that a player may wear their best armor, put up Deflect Missiles, cast Phase Shift, etc. before all of these threats makes those features boring. It's natural you will want to make yourself as strong as possible when fighting tough threats, but I think there's an inconsistency in your thinking patterns unless you advocate forcing people to play demigod wanderers and taking away their ability to put experience into whatever skills they want (such that there is no way to ever say "it's obvious that a lot of players would rely on X").

[dck]

(ok maybe repel missile is, but that significantly loses it's appeal by end game IMO)

  Code:

The ancient lich mumbles some strange words.
The crystal spear is repelled.

[Sandman25]

Mumcon,

I am not sure if you saw a table for 0.13 tournament in other thread but it proves that Haste is optimal too often. It is level 6 spell but it has 5th rank and was used more often (86 winners had it below 10%) than any level 4-5 spells (40 winners). Fighting OoF is not boring, casting Haste before every fight with OoF is.

[Kate]

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

"Monsters are balanced based on haste" may be a true statement currently but it is not a reason for haste to not be changed ever. It *is* one (of many) reasons that *one specific* change to haste may not work. Haste was nerfed in the past from 2x to 1.5x speed, and late-game monster speeds were adjusted as appropriate, and the same thing could quite feasibly happen again if it were somehow necessary. Your posts are awful not because they claimed something that is untrue (lots of GDD posts do this), but because they put words in other peoples' mouths and claimed that "the devs" were the ones saying this untrue thing (that's really shitty and you should stop doing it).

[twelwe]

This thread reminds me that I have an absolutely ideal ignore list

[WalkerBoh]

Because it's the most boring one, and yet it's the best* spell and has virtually no consequences.

This argument makes the best case so far against Haste as a spell. I think you mean that it's the most boring specifically because it's the best and has small consequences; I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Fast as a status effect is boring.

You guys are really overstating how much of a no-brainer Haste is, though. Short of worshipping Ash or getting a manual of Charms, to make haste a no-brainer you are generally playing a character who:
- Can already reliably kill end-game monsters
- Has decent hp and high (enough) armour and dodging
- Has relatively good Int (15+) and a Charms apt that is higher than -3
- Did not find a wand of hasting yet

If any of these are not true, then you have a decision whether investing in skills that keep you alive more immediately (Fighting, Dodging, Weapon, etc.) is more useful than getting Haste cast-able. And if you are playing something with low Int or a bad Charms apt, that means the exp cost for getting Haste cast-able is quite high, especially for late-game characters. In extended you generally want it because by that point your defenses should already be pretty solid (i.e., training survival skills gives less effect and is less needed), and it is even more important to reduce time spent in LoS of some creatures due largely to torment (but also mutations, hellfire, and eyeball effects, among others). This is partially what people mean when they say extended is balanced around Haste. Note that it is not balanced around Haste the Spell, but just having access to the Fast status.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet, but which is very relevant, is that there has been a push lately in development to remove redundant spells. Insulation, See Invisible, and others have been removed because those already exist as items/mutations. This is the biggest reason I see to remove Haste as a spell, because it seems to be quite in line with this trend in development, and I believe this is what dpeg meant when he said Haste is "inelegant design".

[WalkerBoh]

By the way, there are many spells that have more broken effects than Haste, like Death's Door for instance. You could make much the same arguments about that spell as about Haste (no-brainer in low-hp situations, it's broken that the player can spam invincibility, any char can benefit from being invincible, etc.). The difference is that it is harder to get cast-able, and actually casting it also has a high enough cost to disincentivize casting it when not necessary. So I think the only real feedback to be had just from this thread's existence is that many people feel Haste has not yet reached the right balance between strength/utility of the spell and total cost for regularly casting it.

The best way to achieve balance is to increase the cost of casting it, not decreasing the spell's strength or usefulness. Decreasing the spell's usefulness means also changing how the potion/wand effect work, and that is a MUCH bigger (and totally unnecessary) change. Since the spell is the only problem (the Fast status itself is not the issue), the easiest solution is one that only affects the spell, not the status. I think we can all be honest and admit that Contam does not do much, and in any case increasing Contam cost would mostly just increase aggravation. Therefore, I think simply increasing the spell level from 6 to 7, or making it a two class spell (Charms/Air or Charms/Necromancy) seems like the right path to explore before any more radical or complicated measures. The nice thing about this is it also wouldn't require much, if any, rebalancing of the game.

By the way, I'm not convinced that the balance *IS* actually off. But if it is, people should at least try to go about a solution in a way that makes sense. I also get the argument that once you have Haste cast-able, there is no reason not to overuse it. This is true of a lot of things (look at Apport, for example), and I don't think it's a problem since the game is still not even close to trivial with Haste up. If you think it's tedious having to press the keys to cast Haste a lot, that's more of an interface issue than a problem with the spell itself.

And also @Tiktacy, Sandman, Hirsch, et al: You REALLY hurt any legitimacy that your arguments may have by getting emotional when people disagree with you. Also by exaggerating and saying things that just aren't true. If you want to be taken more seriously, make sure you fully understand what you're talking about and try to stay cool.

[Sandman25]

Yes, this is why I was asked to stop posting in GDD: monsters are balanced based on Haste. Orb of Fire came into view? Haste yourself. Are about to enter Cerebov's vault? Haste yourself. Going to Shatter rune vault? Haste yourself. Going to steal a rune by cBlink/apportation and teleport? Haste yourself. This is what I call boring/nobrainer.

"Monsters are balanced based on haste" may be a true statement currently but it is not a reason for haste to not be changed ever. It *is* one (of many) reasons that *one specific* change to haste may not work. Haste was nerfed in the past from 2x to 1.5x speed, and late-game monster speeds were adjusted as appropriate, and the same thing could quite feasibly happen again if it were somehow necessary. Your posts are awful not because they claimed something that is untrue (lots of GDD posts do this), but because they put words in other peoples' mouths and claimed that "the devs" were the ones saying this untrue thing (that's really shitty and you should stop doing it).

Please stop insulting me, it is getting ridiculous.

Please answer last question on that patch mantis ticket, it looks like I am not the only one who is unable to understand what you mean with your "I think it's probably still a bad idea for the reasons mentioned on that page." and reference to a link with a dozen of "reasons" most of which do not apply to Siegurt's approach.

Edit. I think I should say I am sorry that I misinterpreted your words, I took a reason from the list and assumed that's what you meant. But at least I didn't mention any names and I am trying to be specific to avoid misunderstanding, probably you have something to learn from me.

[duvessa]

I read respected players like Duvessa say more than once that not learning haste if you find it is probably a mistake.

when the fuck did I say that

Since the spell is the only problem (the Fast status itself is not the issue), the easiest solution is one that only affects the spell, not the status.

I still don't think the spell is a bigger problem than the wand. I mean, if the spell were removed completely, I would probably have to start telling people to pick wand on every acquirement no matter what.

[TwilightPhoenix]

You know Haste is still a very powerful effect when one of the bigger reasons Chei is considered a "weak" or "bad" god by some players is that he specifically hates usage of Haste. (Yes, there's the whole slows your movement conduct, but that's the other big reason and it's not really relevant here.)

I'm still an advocate of either removing Haste as a spell or at least bumping it up a couple of levels. It's an extremely good spell that is not too difficult to acquire. There's a required investment, sure, but it's not too much and can even be learned fairly early if you have the fortune to stumble upon its spellbook early (though whether it's a good idea to focus on learning Haste that soon is a different discussion, I'm just stating that the XP investment is low enough that it's doable). So if you find the spell it then it pretty much always pays off to learn it unless you're worshipping Trog or Chei.

[Leafsnail]

I'll repost the argument I made in the previous thread:

The underlying issue with most divinations, alter self and selective amnesia was that they were spells with no tactical element. You could ignore the mana cost and cast them whenever you wanted. It's true that something being a non-combat spell causes this problem to happen, but it can also arise in combat spells too. Old swiftness suffered from a similar issue, for instance - the cost is so low that you can just keep yourself moving faster all the time.

I'd say the haste spell is in a kindof similar position. You can't cast it constantly, but the benefits it brings are so great that there are very few battle situations where it isn't worth having it active. I don't think it's overpowered, considering that "invest a bunch of XP in charms in order to make an often fairly plentiful resource infinite" isn't a no-brainer, but I do think that it doesn't really make sense as a spell considering that spells are meant to be things that you use tactically rather than being basically perma-buffs.

So in other words I think the problem is that once you've got the spell "cast haste" is basically a no-brainer even if "learn haste" isn't. This makes it an uninteresting spell regardless of what XP investment is required for it.

[dpeg]

I'll go out on a limb and say that nothing will happen about the Haste spell in the near future. First, it's not urgent -- more actions/aut will always be popular but as has been amply demonstrated, Haste is not the no-brainer it is sometimes made out to be. Second, I always cared about this (bringing up Haste and its current status on ##crawl-dev once per release), this topic *is* discussed about internally since ever.

For comparison, let's look at Swiftness. The nerf of this spell was certainly more urgent: much easier to pick up, and ideally used all the time -- this hits several of our 'Oh no' boxes.

For the record: (1) monster haste is not a reason in either direction; (2) the extended endgame relying on player haste is not a reason whatsoever; (3) Haste is a responsible member of the Charms school; (4) what WalkerBoh said: future nerfs, if any, should probably be spell/wand specific.

Also, some of the nerf/removal proponents are too hostile. Even though I don't like the very concept of the fast status much (as far as buffs go, it's a very simplicistic approach; the 2.0 -> 1.5 nerf made it technically complicated while still simplistic, and there's the overlap with a potion and a wand), I certainly wouldn't advocate anything after I've seen how MarvinPA gets treated.

[Mumcon]

Mumcon,

I am not sure if you saw a table for 0.13 tournament in other thread but it proves that Haste is optimal too often. It is level 6 spell but it has 5th rank and was used more often (86 winners had it below 10%) than any level 4-5 spells (40 winners). Fighting OoF is not boring, casting Haste before every fight with OoF is.

Sandman25: Thanks for your consideration. I haven't looked at the other thread much, but I fortunately did notice that. Well, you say that casting Haste before fighting orbs of fire is boring, but that seems to me as innocent an action as switching your clarity amulet for rMut, putting on a second rF+ ring, casting Phase Shift, or whatever other preparations you may perform too.

I'm still an advocate of either removing Haste as a spell or at least bumping it up a couple of levels. It's an extremely good spell that is not too difficult to acquire. There's a required investment, sure, but it's not too much and can even be learned fairly early if you have the fortune to stumble upon its spellbook early (though whether it's a good idea to focus on learning Haste that soon is a different discussion, I'm just stating that the XP investment is low enough that it's doable). So if you find the spell it then it pretty much always pays off to learn it unless you're worshipping Trog or Chei.

I also personally wouldn't mind a level 7 Haste, but I think it's arbitrary to make that alteration, just as I think that what you say about Haste could apply to any popular spell. Sure, Haste is one of the most popular spells and cite some of the 0.13 tournament statistics, but saying "this unique level of popularity combined with this spell level means Haste deserves to be removed" seems like an extremely subjective judgment to make (and you're not the only one to make it, but I have yet to understand its basis).

I'd say the haste spell is in a kindof similar position. You can't cast it constantly, but the benefits it brings are so great that there are very few battle situations where it isn't worth having it active. I don't think it's overpowered, considering that "invest a bunch of XP in charms in order to make an often fairly plentiful resource infinite" isn't a no-brainer, but I do think that it doesn't really make sense as a spell considering that spells are meant to be things that you use tactically rather than being basically perma-buffs.

So in other words I think the problem is that once you've got the spell "cast haste" is basically a no-brainer even if "learn haste" isn't. This makes it an uninteresting spell regardless of what XP investment is required for it.

I find it interesting. You have a time limit for how long you can use it, after which you can't use it for a period of time without generally risking negative mutations (which can be very problematic, although there's a certain amount that players can push the limits based on their !cure mutation count). Battles in Crawl are complex, not decided purely by whether or not a player has more actions. There is tactical value in knowing whether you're likely to encounter enemies within the next X turns against whom having more actions will let you win where it wouldn't have before and such that you aren't left more vulnerable after your speed runs out. On countless occasions I have had to weigh whether or not the immediate threat is worth Haste compared to what I could face immediately after while contaminated, or whether I should choose to extend it in a difficult situation.

[Sandman25]

after I've seen how MarvinPA gets treated.

Guys, I have already apologized for my misunderstanding. I promise I will not post anything in GDD, hopefully it will lead to haste reform some day

Edit. Please let me know if I should remove my forum account (no sarcasm).

[twelwe]

oh my god this is the worst thread. GUYS, THE THREAD STOPPED BEING ABOUT ME, SANDMAN, OK NEW SANDMAN TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCT? I SEE THE THREAD HAS MOVED ON FROM DISCUSSING ME... LET ME RE-ADJUST BACK TO THE REAL TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCOUNT? I THREATENED TO BEFORE, AND DIDN'T, BUT MAYBE IF SOMEONE TELLS ME, MAYBE IF A MOD OR DEV TALKS TO BE AGAIN, ILL MAKE A DECISION, AND I WILL POST IT IN THIS THREAD. SO SHOULD I? GONNA JUST WAIT HERE FOR ANY REPLY... PROMISE, THIS TIME FOR REAL, NO MORE POSTS HERE! REMEMBER, I WAS ASKED NOT TO POST, I DIDN'T DECIDE, I WAS ASKED

[TwilightPhoenix]

I also personally wouldn't mind a level 7 Haste, but I think it's arbitrary to make that alteration, just as I think that what you say about Haste could apply to any popular spell. Sure, Haste is one of the most popular spells and cite some of the 0.13 tournament statistics, but saying "this unique level of popularity combined with this spell level means Haste deserves to be removed" seems like an extremely subjective judgment to make (and you're not the only one to make it, but I have yet to understand its basis).

Popularity has nothing to do with it, though it does bring more attention to Haste than other potentially broken things. I simply feel that Haste is simply too good as a level 6 spell. In fact, Haste as an effect might be too good for spells/wands considering that general strategy still seems to be "get a source of Haste" for everyone except Chei, but we're talking about the spell here. I feel Haste might be okay as a level 8 spell. Maybe 7, maybe 9, but 8 just seems like a good number. Or maybe it'd be better to just axe it as a spell, but I'd rather try nerfing the spell level first.

Also, whether other spells are broken or not has little bearing on the discussion. "X is broken too, so don't fix Y" is never a good, or even average, reason for not fixing Y. Of course, there are other spells I dislike (Controlled Blink, Swiftness though I've not tried the new Trunk version, etc.) for similar reasons as the Haste spell, but those would be different topics of discussion.

[Sandman25]

oh my god this is the worst thread. GUYS, THE THREAD STOPPED BEING ABOUT ME, SANDMAN, OK NEW SANDMAN TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCT? I SEE THE THREAD HAS MOVED ON FROM DISCUSSING ME... LET ME RE-ADJUST BACK TO THE REAL TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCOUNT? I THREATENED TO BEFORE, AND DIDN'T, BUT MAYBE IF SOMEONE TELLS ME, MAYBE IF A MOD OR DEV TALKS TO BE AGAIN, ILL MAKE A DECISION, AND I WILL POST IT IN THIS THREAD. SO SHOULD I? GONNA JUST WAIT HERE FOR ANY REPLY... PROMISE, THIS TIME FOR REAL, NO MORE POSTS HERE! REMEMBER, I WAS ASKED NOT TO POST, I DIDN'T DECIDE, I WAS ASKED

Well, I could explain why I did what I did but I won't. Think anything you want, I don't care.

[Tiktacy]

oh my god this is the worst thread. GUYS, THE THREAD STOPPED BEING ABOUT ME, SANDMAN, OK NEW SANDMAN TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCT? I SEE THE THREAD HAS MOVED ON FROM DISCUSSING ME... LET ME RE-ADJUST BACK TO THE REAL TOPIC: SHOULD I DELETE MY ACCOUNT? I THREATENED TO BEFORE, AND DIDN'T, BUT MAYBE IF SOMEONE TELLS ME, MAYBE IF A MOD OR DEV TALKS TO BE AGAIN, ILL MAKE A DECISION, AND I WILL POST IT IN THIS THREAD. SO SHOULD I? GONNA JUST WAIT HERE FOR ANY REPLY... PROMISE, THIS TIME FOR REAL, NO MORE POSTS HERE! REMEMBER, I WAS ASKED NOT TO POST, I DIDN'T DECIDE, I WAS ASKED

I don't get this at all, I really don't. It feels sort of reminiscent of the days when kids would pick on me because I didn't believe in Santa clause.

In any case, dpeg is right about haste not being a major issue, so maybe we should just put this discussion on lock until it starts to become a bigger issue.

[cerebovssquire]

with the tiny difference that picking on someone for repeatedly talking about himself in threads that should be about game design discussion makes sense so what does santa have to do with anything

[Tiktacy]

with the tiny difference that picking on someone for repeatedly talking about himself in threads that should be about game design discussion makes sense so what does santa have to do with anything

Fair enough, you are right to say sandman isn't completely innocent(albeit he is hardly breaking more rules than your average "experienced" player gets away with) but the way they are handling it is just as bad if not worse.

[Grimm]

Jesus wept.

[Mumcon]

I also personally wouldn't mind a level 7 Haste, but I think it's arbitrary to make that alteration, just as I think that what you say about Haste could apply to any popular spell. Sure, Haste is one of the most popular spells and cite some of the 0.13 tournament statistics, but saying "this unique level of popularity combined with this spell level means Haste deserves to be removed" seems like an extremely subjective judgment to make (and you're not the only one to make it, but I have yet to understand its basis).

Popularity has nothing to do with it, though it does bring more attention to Haste than other potentially broken things. I simply feel that Haste is simply too good as a level 6 spell. In fact, Haste as an effect might be too good for spells/wands considering that general strategy still seems to be "get a source of Haste" for everyone except Chei, but we're talking about the spell here. I feel Haste might be okay as a level 8 spell. Maybe 7, maybe 9, but 8 just seems like a good number. Or maybe it'd be better to just axe it as a spell, but I'd rather try nerfing the spell level first.

Also, whether other spells are broken or not has little bearing on the discussion. "X is broken too, so don't fix Y" is never a good, or even average, reason for not fixing Y. Of course, there are other spells I dislike (Controlled Blink, Swiftness though I've not tried the new Trunk version, etc.) for similar reasons as the Haste spell, but those would be different topics of discussion.

Sorry for talking about popularity; you mentioned that Haste is useful for nearly every character, which is commonly said by people who point to its popularity as a symptom of its problem, so I mistakenly assumed I needed to address that again.

I don't bring up other spells to imply that you need to say they should be fixed before Haste is fixed (in fact, I rather dislike when other people make that implication ), I brought them up so as to guide you to define better what about what you described actually qualifies as excessive for a level 6 spell.

However, after thinking about this some more, I actually realized that your suggestion to raise Haste to level 8 might make a lot of sense in some ways. Because I recalled that while I do frequently have to consider whether Haste is appropriate to use, spell hunger and failure chance are almost never factors in my decision (unless I'm already learning it extremely early in the game where my other spells might all be level 3-4). Was a disproportionate lack of concern for hunger and failure also your reason for saying Haste is unsuited for level 6, or is there some other way you determined it was miscategorized?

To clarify, though, I still don't think Haste "needs" to be fixed by having its level raised, because practically speaking, it don't see how it's a problem to learn it earlier. Being able to get in more actions is a major boost to your combat potential, but although Haste remains powerful into extended, its power just scales up based on the basic combat potential of the player's "extra actions"; so what a weak player gains from it against monsters relatively stronger is comparable to what a strong player gains from it against monsters relatively stronger.

In the end, I feel that while moving Haste to level 8 might make hunger and failure more strategically relevant, few people really care about making sure more spells in Crawl are constantly making their users aware of those basic costs (including me, though I admit I'm quite curious about this now), and the real difference may be that those costs will reduce how often people feel they can afford to use Haste in the early and mid game, which potentially cuts short the strategic potential of using Haste against some early and mid game threats. In other words, Haste is good enough in the late game that players would be driven to pay the higher costs of a higher level spell, but because it scales with the player it's not too good for earlier than that, so trying to wring those costs out this spell to increase the strategic pressure on the player may mean forfeiting the chance to see it shine in the early and mid game.

[cerebovssquire]

fr: rename CYC to "game design trashcan" and give it the subtitle "abandon all hope ye who enter here"

[Sar]

just do the same with GDD

[Grimm]

The difference is that in CYC we like to enjoy ourselves.

[BlackSheep]

Come for the failed design discussions. Stay for the pun wars and youtube links.

[Hirsch I]

damn, I leave for a couple of days and this thread becomes a hell made of the worst the tavern has to offer.
sorry guys, this was not my intention. I just think haste has lots of issues, and is not worth the bad stuff. I'll work more on my next proposals.