The Tavern

Sar wrote:So what do you have against sexless autists anyway, Arrhy?

Have you seen gammafunk's commits?

oooooh damn!

good 1 arrhy

Lasty wrote:
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I have to act like it's all a big crazy coincidence that the NBA has more black men than white women.

For example, it sounds an awful lot like you're advocating gender and race essentialist sentiments here, which are sexist and racist respectively, and if that's so, I condemn you for it and request that you stop expressing these viewpoints.

This statement need not be interpreted as essentialist. It is well known that men are, on average, taller and stronger than women. If it is also true (and I am not claiming it is, just as a gedankenexperiment) that black men are taller and better at basketball than white men, on average, or if the height and/or basketball ability was more variable for black men than white men, then it would not be all that surprising to see more men then women and more black men than white men in something like the NBA. This would solely be a probabilistic argument where we condition on NBA-quality skills, without relying on any essentialist ideas, because nothing is said about the essential qualities of a man vs a woman, or a black man vs a white man.

Any of you ladies want to go out on a date?

cerebovssquire wrote:You post a finding about women and wikipedia. Nemora (admittedly only with anecdotes, and calling that out is a completely valid point) says that she disagrees with it. Your response (before you edited it) was "but this was a point made by a woman". I say why I don't think it is relevant. Then you act like this is completely tangential when you brought it up in the first place. I really don't follow this line of thought.

Absolutely. The study may have merit, or not, and Nemora's anecdotal rebuttal does not meet any sort of statistical or scientific standard. However, I have a strong feeling that this study was probably observational and, therefore, any association between sex and type of leisure activity is just that, an association. We cannot distinguish between biological, cultural, or other factors that might explain the preferences. Moreover, that assumes that the study was designed well in the first place.

well who cars about studies or polls any-way how do we get more girls......

The NBA analogy makes no sense. Yes, in top-level professional sport you would expect the gender that has the physical advantage at playing the sport to dominate, due to the incredibly high skill requirement for entry. But DCSS has no such barrier, the only requirements are that you are able to access the game and willing to play. There's also no obvious reason why men would be better than women at playing roguelikes in the first case.

Incidentally I think the racial genetics argument is also suspect, it could easily be attributable to basketball generally being more popular in black communities for cultural and historical reasons.

Let's be honest, the only people who are capable of adequately answering why more women don't play Crawl is the women who don't play Crawl. Men who play Crawl and women who play Crawl are not fit to answer this, for what should be obvious reasons.

WalkerBoh wrote:Let's be honest, the only people who are capable of adequately answering why more women don't play Crawl is the women who don't play Crawl. Men who play Crawl and women who play Crawl are not fit to answer this, for what should be obvious reasons.

Actually women who play Crawl would be a fine group to ask since, uh, once upon a time they were women who didn't play Crawl.

As anecdotal as my rebuttal might be, if you're curious to learn how widespread this stuff is, I'd suggest venturing out to Google. The website http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ has been around for a while. Anita Sarkeesian's videos detail sexism in video games- and the responses to her are rather telling about the gaming community at large. Just typing in "sexism video game community" into Google yielded numerous things on the very first page. I feel confident recounting my experiences as rebuttals because I've heard and read from countless other women very similar stories.

And you know the worst part about them? Is that the people around me never took any real action to tell the people doing those things "Hey, this is wrong." Especially other men.

And no, not every single woman is going to say these things. Some buy into the bullshit, some don't recognize the patterns (while they're not always subtle, they often are), others keep quiet in hopes of staying safe or remaining part of the group. And some lucky ones genuinely have't experienced this sort of thing.

But the stories of those who have are everywhere if you look.

Leafsnail wrote:The NBA analogy makes no sense. Yes, in top-level professional sport you would expect the gender that has the physical advantage at playing the sport to dominate, due to the incredibly high skill requirement for entry. But DCSS has no such barrier, the only requirements are that you are able to access the game and willing to play. There's also no obvious reason why men would be better than women at playing roguelikes in the first case.

Incidentally I think the racial genetics argument is also suspect, it could easily be attributable to basketball generally being more popular in black communities for cultural and historical reasons.

If this is directed at me, I agree, the analogy is far from perfect. However, the question in the NBA is about success in the sport and the question here is about the willingness to play and how in both there is some link between sex and that aspect. There must be some reason why it exists and I don't know that you can rule out biology. Note, I am not making any actual claims about the reason for the lack of women, because, honestly, I don't care, people should play whatever games they like.

I should point out, that I didn't actually claim that black men are better than white men in basketball, I assumed some sort of difference (in mean or variance) to make a point about whether a particular statement was essentialist or not. And in fact, with the exception of the height part, even the assumption I made about a potential difference was not claimed as a genetic thing, my argument would work equally well if black people were better on average or had more variability than white people in basketball skill due to cultural and historical reasons.

somebody wrote:Anita Sarkeesian

oh boy, here we go

Sar wrote:
somebody wrote:Anita Sarkeesian

oh boy, here we go

Yeah, I think this is like Godwin's law now. I think it's time to bail on this thread.

nilsbloodaxe wrote:
Sar wrote:
somebody wrote:Anita Sarkeesian

oh boy, here we go

Yeah, I think this is like Godwin's law now. I think it's time to bail on this thread.

You wanted non-anecdotal examples.

I mentioned one.

*shrug*

WalkerBoh wrote:Let's be honest, the only people who are capable of adequately answering why more women don't play Crawl is the women who don't play Crawl. Men who play Crawl and women who play Crawl are not fit to answer this, for what should be obvious reasons.

my gf just said: "it is boring, hard, and I have better things to do." its pretty much the same reasons men dont play it. but she agreed to give it another try. I'll gather her feedback, It may be useful, I guess.
Edit: Nemora shrugs a lot, doesnt she? :lol:

Hirsch I wrote:
WalkerBoh wrote:Let's be honest, the only people who are capable of adequately answering why more women don't play Crawl is the women who don't play Crawl. Men who play Crawl and women who play Crawl are not fit to answer this, for what should be obvious reasons.

my gf just said: "it is boring, hard, and I have better things to do." its pretty much the same reasons men dont play it. but she agreed to give it another try. I'll gather her feedback, It may be useful, I guess.
Edit: Nemora shrugs a lot, doesnt she?

*SHRUGS AGGRESSIVELY IN YOUR DIRECTION*

May I just add, too, that playing Crawl and being present in a community are not the same? I don't know how polls have been done before asking the sex of players, but that's something to consider. Because if they are, say, self-reporting from communities, I'd imagine men being overrepresented.

*curl in a ball and cry*
why are you being agressive towards me I'm so peaceful
Edit: a friend of mine just said women dont play so much videogames because

we can get sex when we want, so we dont need to flee from reality. life's more fun wen you can get multiple orgasms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWiny8noUbY

dck wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWiny8noUbY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auJDb9652VA

but but that music is not that bad....

Sar wrote:
somebody wrote:Anita Sarkeesian

oh boy, here we go

1) this isn't helpful
2) was it that hard to remember the name of the person who posted 2 posts above you? Hint: It was Nemora.

On an unrelated note, I love Anita's videos. She takes way too long to make them and all, but still they're interesting. She definitely doesn't deserve all the hate.

Nemora wrote:You wanted non-anecdotal examples.

I mentioned one.

*shrug*

Well, actually, it's mostly because mentioning Anita Sarkeesian and her video series in most videogame forums ends up turning into a total clusterfuck.

But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.

I found sar's synopsis of what people who like words were posting very helpful fyi

nilsbloodaxe wrote:
Nemora wrote:You wanted non-anecdotal examples.

I mentioned one.

*shrug*

Well, actually, it's mostly because mentioning Anita Sarkeesian and her video series in most videogame forums ends up turning into a total clusterfuck.

But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.

Okay.

Then you know what?

Go look up some of the studies done on the gaming community. They're out there. If you really want to learn about it... then do it!

Hirsch I wrote:*curl in a ball and cry*
why are you being agressive towards me I'm so peaceful
Edit: a friend of mine just said women dont play so much videogames because
we can get sex when we want, so we dont need to flee from reality. life's more fun wen you can get multiple orgasms.

*patpat* There there. It's my fault, I forget my own strength. The power of the aggressive shrug is not one to be ignored.

...and. wat.

At the risk of getting this thread back on track, here's how to get more girls to play:

Get more people to play. Some percentage of these people will be female. It will likely be small, but more women will play, accomplishing the goal. Tell your friends, help them learn.

If you're interested in actual game demographic studies, my favorite scientific researcher is nick yee: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

Mostly focused on MMO players, but if you're looking for research specifically into gender and dungeon crawl stone soup, you'll probably have to do your own. Since WoW was/is the huge MMO when most of the research was done, a lot focuses on that game.

Here's a few gender articles, although nearly all articles about the players break it down into male/female groups (and may further subdivide on other aspects)

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000194.php (simple demographics)

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000430.php (women are about 4x more likely to play with boyfriend than men play with their girlfriend)

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000551.php (gender bending, aka "you got your gender in my peanut butter, Xom finds this hilarious")

etc etc.

I actually am fairly interested in gaming and gender, if you can't tell. I follow a lot of sites/discussion groups about it.

Can of Wyrms opening: #132156 & #4624601

Bias:
Is there a lot of bias against women in gaming? Yes. Are you a participant in said bias? (I leave that for you to answer.) Is there any solution? Yes. Don't participate and encourage others to not participate.

Language does matter. Despite what people say about "names" and "words" not being hurtful they are (Notice that the people who say such things often display a complete lack of empathy.) Language sets the tone for further thinking on subjects. For example declaring how you got "raped" by xyz in a game is an insensitive thing to say at the very least and shows you either a) don't understand what rape actually is or b) think it is something to be glorified. I prefer to think most gamers who use such language are just ignorant but there are some who are the second type. (As someone said earlier, "scumbags".)

What Lasty said about assumptions seems dead on. Keep in mind this: You may be anonymous but that doesn't make what you do/say while in this state totally insignificant.

Nemora wrote:Go look up some of the studies done on the gaming community. They're out there. If you really want to learn about it... then do it!

Technically, I am making no claims, so the burden of proof is on you. But even with that, I honestly don't really care about learning about it, because I don't have infinite time, don't really get involved in video game communities outside of roguelikes (I play board games when I want to play something socially), and pretty much only care about a person's sex when actual sexual intercourse is involved and I am a part.

As to the original point of the thread: I don't know how to get more women involved. Looking back, I can't claim that I have seen any particular bias here towards female players (I can't even recall sex coming up before this thread). I do know two female friends who are more-than-just-casual gamers and both are/have been exposed to roguelikes by multiple friends (not to mention a husband and ex-long-term boyfriend, respectively) but neither, for whatever reason, picked them up. Probably greater exposure, in general, will bring in more. I also wonder the demographics might not change as the children of today grow up. I have observed most of my college freshmen playing little games on their phones or laptops when I come into class, and sex doesn't seem to have that much to do with it.

nilsbloodaxe wrote:pretty much only care about a person's sex when actual sexual intercourse is involved and I am a part

that's not very inclusive

nilsbloodaxe wrote:
Nemora wrote:Go look up some of the studies done on the gaming community. They're out there. If you really want to learn about it... then do it!

Technically, I am making no claims, so the burden of proof is on you. But even with that, I honestly don't really care about learning about it, because I don't have infinite time, don't really get involved in video game communities outside of roguelikes (I play board games when I want to play something socially), and pretty much only care about a person's sex when actual sexual intercourse is involved and I am a part.

As to the original point of the thread: I don't know how to get more women involved. Looking back, I can't claim that I have seen any particular bias here towards female players (I can't even recall sex coming up before this thread). I do know two female friends who are more-than-just-casual gamers and both are/have been exposed to roguelikes by multiple friends (not to mention a husband and ex-long-term boyfriend, respectively) but neither, for whatever reason, picked them up. Probably greater exposure, in general, will bring in more. I also wonder the demographics might not change as the children of today grow up. I have observed most of my college freshmen playing little games on their phones or laptops when I come into class, and sex doesn't seem to have that much to do with it.

Look, I'm trying really hard to be nice about this, but it's really hard when first, you tell me that my personal experiences (with numerous examples) aren't really good enough to be convincing. Then, you tell me that the sources I gave aren't good enough because they aren't scientific enough for you, even though they are EVEN MORE examples from many, many women who aren't me. Finally, when I prompt you to actually go look yourself since apparently the personal, lived experiences of myself and many other women aren't good enough, you tell me you don't really care about this. And not only do you not really care about this, but you also even said you don't really participate in video game communities outside of Crawl... so I ask, why would you think you'd know better about what I have to deal with? Am I not an authority on my own experience? Why do I have to prove anything to you?

This is exactly why I didn't bother tracking down any studies myself. Unless you're actually motivated to learn, you're not going to educate yourself- or be educated. Unless you're actually willing to see, you're going to ignore the negative experiences happening around you. I'm not going to waste my time tracking down endless sources to try to "prove" to you that the things I have experienced on a daily basis are actually valid.

And, if you'd even be bothered, tasonir linked a few things.

But I don't think you really care about any of the sources any of us would throw at you. So I'm not going to even bother.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, even though you say "technically" you're making no claims, you were pretty insistent on us not throwing out biology or whatever as a reason why women might not play video games so much- and you did some pretty amusing (read: not amusing) backpeddling to try to not sound like you were saying it's possible more black men play in the NBA because of biology in the same couple posts.

I'm done engaging with you.

I do want to say, as a sidebar, that overall I've been fairly pleased with how the community's engaged with this thread- I've been openly female in online gaming community for over a decade. But even so, I have my moments of hesitation about revealing my sex.

I'll only add that if you see a post that you think is in some way destructive and deleterious (as opposed to just disagreeing with you or incorrect or maybe a bit sarcastic) then you should report it.

And although several people have joked about cans of worms and the like, so far the discussion has been pretty reasonable, so kudos Taverners for talking about a sensitive topic with a bit of decency and restraint. (Hope I didn't jinx it...)

i just want more girls is all

Nemora wrote: Look, I'm trying really hard to be nice about this, but it's really hard when first, you tell me that my personal experiences (with numerous examples) aren't really good enough to be convincing. Then, you tell me that the sources I gave aren't good enough because they aren't scientific enough for you, even though they are EVEN MORE examples from many, many women who aren't me.

Because to make a scientific claim, one cannot rely on self-selection, which is the problem with personal experience, even with multiple people's personal experiences. We cannot be assured that the sample is representative of the population.

Nemora wrote: Finally, when I prompt you to actually go look yourself since apparently the personal, lived experiences of myself and many other women aren't good enough, you tell me you don't really care about this. And not only do you not really care about this, but you also even said you don't really participate in video game communities outside of Crawl... so I ask, why would you think you'd know better about what I have to deal with? Am I not an authority on my own experience? Why do I have to prove anything to you?

This is exactly why I didn't bother tracking down any studies myself. Unless you're actually motivated to learn, you're not going to educate yourself- or be educated. Unless you're actually willing to see, you're going to ignore the negative experiences happening around you. I'm not going to waste my time tracking down endless sources to try to "prove" to you that the things I have experienced on a daily basis are actually valid.

And, if you'd even be bothered, tasonir linked a few things.

But I don't think you really care about any of the sources any of us would throw at you. So I'm not going to even bother.

Well I can say that if you have had bad experiences with sexist gamers on other forums, I don't like that, and I would hope that I would speak up if I saw it here. You are absolutely right that I don't know what you have to deal with, I am not you. And no you don't have to prove anything to me, unless you are trying to make a scientific claim. And then the burden of proof is on you. As an example, I work for a pharmaceutical company. When we make a claim about our drugs, we have to prove it, not the people we are trying to help, because we are the ones invested in convincing people that our claim is true or false. And feel free to send me sources, I promise I won't dismiss them out of hand. I am always up for anything scientific or statistical (it is my field after all!).

Nemora wrote:EDIT: Oh and by the way, even though you say "technically" you're making no claims, you were pretty insistent on us not throwing out biology or whatever as a reason why women might not play video games so much- and you did some pretty amusing (read: not amusing) backpeddling to try to not sound like you were saying it's possible more black men play in the NBA because of biology in the same couple posts.

I don't think you should throw out any reason without proof, hence, don't throw out biology. That is not to say anything about whether biology has anything to do with it at all (and I have a feeling that in this case any biological effect, if it existed, would be highly confounded with cultural expectations of sex).

As far as the NBA thing is concerned, I was really just trying to make a philosophical point using statistical distributions. My point would have been equally as valid if we were talking about tomato sizes in different varieties of tomato plant. If variety A has higher variability in size than variety B, but on average they are close to the same size, it would not be surprising to see that in a competition for biggest tomato we would see far more tomatoes of variety A. It doesn't really mean that there is some essential size to each variety of tomato because variety B isn't well represented in the biggest tomato contest.

Nemora wrote:I'm done engaging with you.

I'm sorry if I came across as uncaring, I meant no ill will or disrespect.

Arrhythmia wrote:Actually women who play Crawl would be a fine group to ask since, uh, once upon a time they were women who didn't play Crawl.

Once upon a time I was a baby, but if you asked me about babies I would be like, "Whaaaat...?"

Sar wrote:
nilsbloodaxe wrote:pretty much only care about a person's sex when actual sexual intercourse is involved and I am a part

that's not very inclusive

I have to admit, I am a little confused by this one. What exactly do you mean?

WalkerBoh wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Actually women who play Crawl would be a fine group to ask since, uh, once upon a time they were women who didn't play Crawl.

Once upon a time I was a baby, but if you asked me about babies I would be like, "Whaaaat...?"

Well, there is a difference, somehow I doubt CrawlerBoh was really all that sentient.

nilsbloodaxe wrote:But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.

"Man, I had such a shitty day at work today..."

"Oh yeah? Can you prove that!?"

edit: though if you're an actual statistician I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe your brain just really doesn't quite work like a normal human person's

WalkerBoh wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:Actually women who play Crawl would be a fine group to ask since, uh, once upon a time they were women who didn't play Crawl.

Once upon a time I was a baby, but if you asked me about babies I would be like, "Whaaaat...?"

I'm not certain that comparing women to babies is something that will be useful in this discussion. Or any discussion.

zardo wrote:
nilsbloodaxe wrote:But actually addressing this, as a statistician, I seriously question her work. She may be right, of course, but her methods aren't convincing to me because they are not scientific and are, in fact, based on anecdotal evidence.

"Man, I had such a shitty day at work today..."

"Oh yeah? Can you prove that!?"

edit: though if you're an actual statistician I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume maybe your brain just really doesn't quite work like a normal human person's

I'll have to remember that one, my friends should get a kick out of it.

Pedantically, of course, there is a difference between a personal claim and a scientific one.

And yes, I am an actual statistician.

As to the biological elemental, when a personage as august as Neil Degrasse Tyson has stated unequivocally that such posits are malarkey, I listen. Now he was referring to mathematical/scientific aptitude as it applies to women and black people. That isn't ruling it out but it makes it highly unlikely. True he isn't a geneticist or even a biologist but he is a scientist with many laurels to his name. Also mathematics aptitude isn't the same as interest in warfare, games, roguelikes, etc but they do relate and are similarly male dominated. I think ruling out biology as a factor in gender gaming selection/preference is the same kind of common sense you apply when you also take a person's word when they state they have had a shitty day. My two cents any way.

Arguments along the lines of 'we can't know FOR SURE there's no biological reason why more black people play pro-basketball or more men play roguelikes' are bull. While in some absolute sense they might be true, they serve the rhetorical purpose of suggesting that the opposite is the case (that there is some biological reason) without offering any evidence whatsoever. I mean, I suppose we can't absolutely, scientifically know that the Illuminati weren't behind 9/11 or that the FBI didn't manufacture JFK's assasination, but if someone made that argument and then refused to respond to any evidence to the contrary, they should be dismissed.

In this case someone who claims to have no interest whatsoever in issues of gender difference just happened to feel the need to let everyone know that the possibility can't be dismissed of biological reasons for gender/race imbalances in sports and gaming. I guess it's possible s/he just felt a passing fancy to explain how logic works to us (I have no scientific proof that wasn't her/his intention), but I think it's clear that the -effect- of such a statement is, again, to raise the possibility of essentialized biological differences--for which s/he has offered zero support--, and to undercut people arguing that a very strong reason for gender differentials in games is misogynistic attitudes and trolling--without actually engaging those people's arguments--.

Gaming communities have fewer females than males for a number of reasons, but the primary reason is an idea, which is often unspoken and therefore not confronted, of what is normative in those communities. Most people's image of a hypothetical 'gamer' is probably a male, which influences how they behave and whether or not females take on outsider roles. This is backwards because any justifications for that norm are way outdated.

Hopeless wrote:As to the biological elemental, when a personage as august as Neil Degrasse Tyson has stated unequivocally that such posits are malarkey, I listen.

This is the most reddit sentence I've ever read.

Wait, you're telling me that the playerbase of DCSS isn't mostly made up of girls sitting and drinking tea in frilly dresses while playing?

duvessa wrote:
Hopeless wrote:As to the biological elemental, when a personage as august as Neil Degrasse Tyson has stated unequivocally that such posits are malarkey, I listen.
This is the most reddit sentence I've ever read.

Yeah I could have phrased that better I suppose. Sometimes my fingers get away from me.

tabstorm wrote:Wait, you're telling me that the playerbase of DCSS isn't mostly made up of girls sitting and drinking tea in frilly dresses while playing?

Yes. Frilly Dresses are so '90s. And tea is hot wet grass.

Arrhythmia wrote:
Sar wrote:So what do you have against sexless autists anyway, Arrhy?

Have you seen gammafunk's commits?

As fun as the dunk gammafunk thread derailment is, it's probably something better kept out of tavern posts and saved for when you're spectating one of my games (in which case it's welcome). I'm sure you and dck can find other ways to amuse yourselves.

duvessa wrote:I'm not certain that comparing women to babies is something that will be useful in this discussion. Or any discussion.

In defense of myself, I'm not sure any thread in CYC can really be called a "discussion".

people arguing that a very strong reason for gender differentials in games is misogynistic attitudes and trolling

The implication being that men are perfectly happy with misogyny and trolling. :roll:

Luckily I'm a white male which means it's impossible for me to be the victim of racism or sexism. Otherwise I would be very offended by that argument. 8-)

twelwe wrote:i just want more girls is all

1 Find girls
2 Talk them into playing crawl
3 ????
4 Profit

Lasty wrote:
TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I'm a white male, ergo not allowed to have opinions on things like this.

Yeah, because white men are so oppressed and their opinions are never heard.

No one can stop you from having a viewpoint, and for the most part people can't stop you from expressing your viewpoint, but there's nothing to stop anyone else from calling out the problems with your viewpoint or asking you to stop expressing it. Having someone disagree with you isn't "silencing" you and isn't a form of oppression.

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:I have to act like it's all a big crazy coincidence that the NBA has more black men than white women.

For example, it sounds an awful lot like you're advocating gender and race essentialist sentiments here, which are sexist and racist respectively, and if that's so, I condemn you for it and request that you stop expressing these viewpoints.

Sorry, I exaggerated. Let me rephrase:
I'm a white male, ergo not allowed to have opinions on things like this without being called a racist.

Your overreaction to a simple observation amply proves that point. Thank god I didn't do anything crazy like try to support the opinion I'm not allowed to have.

Leafsnail wrote:The NBA analogy makes no sense. Yes, in top-level professional sport you would expect the gender that has the physical advantage at playing the sport to dominate, due to the incredibly high skill requirement for entry. But DCSS has no such barrier, the only requirements are that you are able to access the game and willing to play. There's also no obvious reason why men would be better than women at playing roguelikes in the first case.

"Access to the game" and "Willingness to play" are both barriers (obviously).

Incidentally I think the racial genetics argument is also suspect, it could easily be attributable to basketball generally being more popular in black communities for cultural and historical reasons.

I don't understand why it matters? Is "black people are good at basketball for biological reasons" more racist than "black people are good at basketball for cultural reasons"? If so why? Sigh and now I have to waste time typing up this disclaimer that I am not advocating or implying anything in this paragraph, it's purely a theoretical question because some of the posts in this thread are giving me a weird vibe.

The Tavern

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Re: how can we get more girls to play

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Re: how can we get more girls to play

Re: how can we get more girls to play