Tavern bullies

[Laraso]

i dont use backspace, thats the post i quoted

Except it's not. You quoted Klown and put it in a quotebox titled "Laraso"

it means that he shouldn't be giving advice because his advice is not good.

The point is, who are you to say it's bad? Especially when the players giving the advice have -more- wins than you. If you disagree, you can say so and why. But let the advice-asker listen to who they want and find out for themselves which was the good advice or the bad advice.

The Tavern (or anything for that matter) should not be some library that catalogues all advice, good or bad. Players shouldn't need to sift through an ocean of bad advice and incorrect information to get what they're looking for, and they shouldn't have to ask themselves "is this advice legit or is it stupid?", as if this was some sort of puzzle that they have to figure out themselves.

And I don't understand, you guys talk about how nobody is "qualified to judge other people's qualifications to give advice", but then you judge me by the number of wins I have. Honestly, it's much more insulting and offensive to disregard the things I say and judge me based on my win count than it would be to disregard what I say and judge me because I'm giving bad advice. Maybe I should go start a thread about it.

[Klown]

This is why the ToME, etc. communities laugh at DCSS and it's community. They constantly mock the ignorance and immaturity of the elitists here.

[twelwe]

i dont use backspace, thats the post i quoted

Except it's not. You quoted Klown and put it in a quotebox titled "Laraso"

i didn`t do any of that-- thats your "opinion" dont you think i know how to write posts? i`ve been writing posts for years now and don`t need your post writing guide or quote writing guide to help my advanced techniques. maybe klown screwed up, he went and edited his post, i quoted his post. i didn`t screw up at all & don`t use backspace & not about to start. i didn`t screw up someone else did and i quoted it so hell yeh

[Laraso]

i didn`t do any of that-- thats your "opinion" dont you think i know how to write posts? i`ve been writing posts for years now and don`t need your post writing guide or quote writing guide to help my advanced techniques. maybe klown screwed up, he went and edited his post, i quoted his post. i didn`t screw up at all & don`t use backspace & not about to start. i didn`t screw up someone else did and i quoted it so hell yeh

I'm sorry, I had no idea

Please forgive me for being an ignorant, immature elitist

[WalkerBoh]

Okay but seriously, let's be honest. Some people here are more scathing in their commentary than others. Some people are more easily insulted than others.

Occasionally one of the harsher people will cross a line with a comment - then it should be reported for a mod to deal with. Occasionally someone will be too easily upset by a comment that isn't that bad. Then it's up to them to deal with it.

But in the end the moderators set the tone of allowable discourse. This thread is literally pointless, and the only reason I can think of that it isn't locked is that everyone with a green or orange name is getting a kick out of it.

[twelwe]

But in the end the moderators set the tone of allowable discourse.

around these parts we follow the creed of administrator grimm

[duvessa]

This is why the ToME, etc. communities laugh at DCSS and it's community. They constantly mock the ignorance and immaturity of the elitists here.

i was an elitist in the tome community for like 2 months but i got tired of saying "proc"

[WalkerBoh]

*gasp* Grimm?!?!?! I heard that guy eats bullets for breakfast and every time he poops his toilet... gets shot?

[Hirsch I]

cant we just be generally nice and polite to each other?
or at least put our occasional angry or caustic comments in spoiler tags, to avoid derailing interesting or useful threads with fights?
like this entire thread? I never saw so much gall flowing in one place, for Ely's sake. coming from people I never expected.
but at least the tavern is no circlejerk, and that is good.

[Moose]

is there a tl;dr here? I'm still waiting for find out who the two prominent bullies are...

[WalkerBoh]

If you don't know who it is, it must be you!

[Hirsch I]

Hirsch II and someone else.

[XuaXua]

Wah.

[mikee]

when did tavern turn into high school

[duvessa]

is there a tl;dr here?

Well the gist of it is, horse dildos are OK replacements for bike handlebars in a pinch, but they're a bit slippery, so you really want to get the bike fixed properly as soon as you can.

[pratamawirya]

Hirsch II and someone else.

oh man, why do you bring up his name

[Hirsch I]

arsehole.

[pratamawirya]

viewtopic.php?p=159953#p159953

His opinions sound all legit, but one might wonder just who exactly did he try to help by being so caustic?

[Arrhythmia]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=159953#p159953

His opinions sound all legit, but one might wonder just who exactly did he try to help by being so caustic?

TheDefiniteArticle is Volteceer_Jack, the guy who was banned from the tavern for being caustic.

Yes, the admins know of this.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=159953#p159953

His opinions sound all legit, but one might wonder just who exactly did he try to help by being so caustic?

Every single person who might read that guide in the future and expect it to be helpful. And if I thought a piece of advice was even arguably opinion, I would be fine with someone giving it to other people. That is not the case here. Holding out for gold dragon armour is factually, objectively bad play.

TheDefiniteArticle is Volteceer_Jack

Oh boy, am I also minmay and ebarrett? I assume being duvessa and twelwe is mandatory.

[Grimm]

when did tavern turn into high school

It was right about the time twelwe showed up.

[Viashino_wizard]

when did tavern turn into high school

"I-it's not like I like you or anything, duvessa-senpai...!"

[Arrhythmia]

when did tavern turn into high school

It was right about the time twelwe showed up.

And you have the gall to be offended when he accuses you of harassment.

[pratamawirya]

THANK OVERKILL

[and into]

Okay here's my two cents:

Questioning someone's capacity to give advice is not the same as saying they are stupid and doesn't even imply that. Crawl is a very recondite game—i.e., an organized, repetitive means by which to waste one's time—that offers pretty deep strategy, with a highly self-selecting audience that, while small, tends to find it very addictive and fascinating. Being bad at it, or being bad at giving advice about it, is just about the dumbest way to judge one's self-worth. Taking the strategy seriously and discussing it seriously—a bit over-seriously, in fact—actually drives discussion of the game much, much deeper than you would normally find on fansites to computer games (with a few notable exceptions like Starcraft). And this benefits everyone, ultimately, even if it means that people who are mistaken get called out on that fact and perhaps some egos are bruised in the process.

There are a lot of players who are more advanced than I am on this site, and that's a good thing because it reminds me that despite how long I've played Crawl there are still things to be learned. A lot of folks on the board here have taught me a hell of a lot and I've grown more careful and considerate about the advice I give thanks to their diligence—however ruthless that diligence may be. I can say very assuredly that dck and duvessa do not actually care about who is posting, they may be ruthless but they do not actually pick on specific people, they specifically pick on what they consider bad advice (though sometimes one or two specific people are the ones giving bad advice at the moment). They call out what they deem bad advice and offer thanks/support to what they consider good advice, completely irrespective of what is popular or who is typing. One can fairly call that behavior a lot of things—but it isn't bullying.

[Hirsch I]

I love you.

[TehDruid]

is there a tl;dr here?

Well the jizzt of it is, horse dildos are OK replacements for bike handlebars in a pinch, but they're a bit slippery, so you really want to get the bike fixed properly as soon as you can.

ftfy

[damiac]

I'm not talking about people disagreeing with advice, people keep wanting to frame it in that light.
Here's what I'm talking about:

But you're too busy being a flippant asshole to consider any of these things.

Does that look like questioning someone's capacity to give advice? That's called a personal insult, and it brings nothing to the conversation. And it's supposedly against the rules.

Now, whether or not you agree with his advice(which is pretty good, actually), there's no need for personal attacks and insults. This takes away from the forum, and some people aren't going to participate if they're opening themselves up to this. This kind of behavior prevents the growth of the community.

[Moanerette]

I find the Crawl 'community' to be very helpful, especially to newbies. I regularly pop up on IRC and Tavern with questions that I suspect are basic and tedious for good players; they get answered promptly, succinctly and without snark or anything else that might be considered bullying, even though those questions have probably come up many times before. Some particularly helpful posters really go the extra mile in this regard.

Also - and this is why I'm posting, because no-one mentioned it and I think this is an important point - I can happily inhabit IRC in the knowledge that the channel frowns on misogyny, racism and homophobia and I am very, very unlikely to encounter any such behaviour. I can't recall seeing any such posts on Tavern either. This is an excellent achievement for an online gaming concern. I'd hate a newbie to see this thread and worry that bullying might be a problem here - the odd acerbic remark does not add up to that.

[damiac]

That's a very good point, and this community is far better than a lot of other internet communities that way.

[pratamawirya]

well what do you expect, this is a "small town"

[Laraso]

I find the Crawl 'community' to be very helpful, especially to newbies. I regularly pop up on IRC and Tavern with questions that I suspect are basic and tedious for good players; they get answered promptly, succinctly and without snark or anything else that might be considered bullying, even though those questions have probably come up many times before. Some particularly helpful posters really go the extra mile in this regard.

Also - and this is why I'm posting, because no-one mentioned it and I think this is an important point - I can happily inhabit IRC in the knowledge that the channel frowns on misogyny, racism and homophobia and I am very, very unlikely to encounter any such behaviour. I can't recall seeing any such posts on Tavern either. This is an excellent achievement for an online gaming concern. I'd hate a newbie to see this thread and worry that bullying might be a problem here - the odd acerbic remark does not add up to that.

This is exactly how I feel. This is probably the single best community I've ever seen out of any game I've ever played, and I've never felt any concern about getting "bullied", both before the creation of this thread and after it.

[Grimm]

I'm not talking about people disagreeing with advice, people keep wanting to frame it in that light.
Here's what I'm talking about:

But you're too busy being a flippant asshole to consider any of these things.

Does that look like questioning someone's capacity to give advice? That's called a personal insult, and it brings nothing to the conversation. And it's supposedly against the rules.

Now, whether or not you agree with his advice(which is pretty good, actually), there's no need for personal attacks and insults. This takes away from the forum, and some people aren't going to participate if they're opening themselves up to this. This kind of behavior prevents the growth of the community.

FYI that particular post got reported so I deleted it. damiac is fully on point here.

[TheDefiniteArticle]

Yes, it's perfectly fine to be a dismissive, rude, patronizing and generally terrible person, as long as you don't say one of the no-no words. Don't worry, I've figured out how Tavern works now.

[twelwe]

Yes, it's perfectly fine to be a dismissive, rude, patronizing and generally terrible person, as long as you don't say one of the no-no words. Don't worry, I've figured out how Tavern works now.

I just replaced all my bad vocab words with ``silly`` and it worked

[Sandman25]

Yes, it's perfectly fine to be a dismissive, rude, patronizing and generally terrible person, as long as you don't say one of the no-no words. Don't worry, I've figured out how Tavern works now.

I just replaced all my bad vocab words with ``silly`` and it worked

That's silly

[tasonir]

*popcorn*

But seriously, the main issue is that people who are ignorant tend to have this weird defensiveness, and the people who are not have little patience/are sick of seeing the same proposals and questions.

I honestly think the best solution would be a thread to catch noobies up to speed on just basic concepts and frequently discussed threads.

The solution to people wanting to write guides is to write a guide so that they won't try to write a guide. It's guides all the way down!

Seriously though, a general, all powerful guide would be great, but it doesn't seem anyone's up to the task, sadly. Maybe a community effort could make something decent enough, but it hasn't so far...

[Hirsch I]

you are a sillyhole. go silly your self silly.
this actually sounds funny.
(disclaimer: this is not aimed to anyone.)

[pratamawirya]

(disclaimer: this is not aimed to anyone.)

good, 'cause we don't want "him" to come here ever again...

[Hirsch I]

he wont. I guarantee.

[pratamawirya]

he wont. I guarantee.

what makes you so sure? wait, what did you...

[Hirsch I]

He wont bother us anymore. enough said.

[zardo]

OK: "This is terrible, terrible advice, and would kill anyone who followed it, because..."

Not ok: "You aren't qualified to give advice"

Suppose someone shows up for a job interview for a high-level engineering position, and their résumé says they dropped out of high school and smoke weed every day. Would you consider it a personal attack to tell them that they are unqualified?

I'm an engineer and I used to smoke weed every day (this was not on my resume)

[Confidence Interval]

I'm an engineer and I used to smoke weed every day (this was not on my resume)

Any particular structures about whose potential safety you want to warn us?

[damiac]

Actually, as someone who's been in the electrical engineering field for a long time, I'd say the field is about 50/50 potheads. The other 50% are drunks

So yeah, stop being a bunch of sillyholes to people. I was complaining more about being rude, dismissive and generally terrible more than specific words, but eh, sillyhole is a pretty funny word...

In conclusion:
I love all of you silly sillyholes, stop being sillywads, cut the silliness, and don't be as sillyhead to all the other sillies.