How to enjoy permadeath

[MackTuesday]

Permadeath is the one thing that keeps me from spending more time with roguelikes. The cycle is:

1. Remember what rich gameplay some roguelikes have, forgetting how they only lead to pain
2. Fire up one of my favorite roguelikes
3. Play until one character does particularly well, then dies from being stung repeatedly by a bee while putting armor on
4. Go on the forums and read about how much of an incredible expert you need to be to beat the game
5. Wonder why I ever started in the first place
6. Stop playing roguelikes because they only lead to pain

I imagine there must be some people out there who prefer permadeath, and I would like to be able to adopt that attitude. So tell me, how is permadeath fun? If it's because it raises the stakes, how do you deal with the frustration? Or is there something else about it that makes it great?

[Blade]

4. Go on the forums and read about how much of an incredible expert you need to be to beat the game

Nah, that part's optional. I mean, heck, I've beaten the game. It gets easier after the first bit.

Anyway, you got it pretty much right with raising the stakes. When every action means something, doing the actions correctly is much more rewarding than when you just go back to the last checkpoint. The joy is in slowly conquering more and more of a hostile land, learning how to do different things with different characters, and finally getting past those roadblocks that character after character has thrown itself against and failed. It is so satisfying because victory doesn't feel like some crazy event, but like the natural culmination of all the deaths, all the learning, and all the care that's come before it.

They are fun because they beat you into the ground, and then extend a hand to help you back up.
...and then, just when you're crawling out of the mud with a smile beginning to form, they laugh, walk away, and then taunt you from a distance.

Of course, I played my first roguelike when I was six (Larn -- it's a wonderfully simple little game that can be beaten in a couple of hours), so a love of the genre has kinda been ingrained in me.

[nicolae]

Permadeath is the one thing that keeps me from spending more time with roguelikes. The cycle is:

1. Remember what rich gameplay some roguelikes have, forgetting how they only lead to pain
2. Fire up one of my favorite roguelikes
3. Play until one character does particularly well, then dies from being stung repeatedly by a bee while putting armor on
4. Go on the forums and read about how much of an incredible expert you need to be to beat the game
5. Wonder why I ever started in the first place
6. Stop playing roguelikes because they only lead to pain

I imagine there must be some people out there who prefer permadeath, and I would like to be able to adopt that attitude. So tell me, how is permadeath fun? If it's because it raises the stakes, how do you deal with the frustration? Or is there something else about it that makes it great?

The problem is step 4. Roguelikes are not a genre where you download the binary and immediately set your sights on victory because otherwise, yes, you will get frustrated, because you're going to die. If you perceive every death as utter absolute failure, well, you're going to have a thousand utter absolute failures or more before you get one victory.

Set smaller goals for yourself instead. Practice playing the early game until you can get your character consistently to Temple. Then practice till you can usually get them to Lair. Or play until you get some cool spell castable. Get your first rune. Beat a portal. Get to a higher character level or a deeper dungeon level than before.

[mad]

What helps me is coming up with ridiculous names for my new characters in fits of frustration/amusement following a death.

I'll go through a string of good-sounding human names, and then it always turns out that "Testicular Torsion" is the one that gets to level 16.

You want proof: as a joke after spending a particularly lovely evening with a gentleman named David and reading the alliterative titles of the Dexter novels (Darkly Dreaming Dexter etc), I decided to create a MiDK named "DELICIOUS DAVID", expecting it to die within 10 minutes like the dozen MiDK before him.

He's now level 19 or 20 and has two runes and is my best character yet. I'm FREAKING OUT.

I'm not sure how relevant the above was but this is Yiuf's corner so I'll post it anyway...

[greepish]

Permadeath is the one thing that keeps me from spending more time with roguelikes. The cycle is:

1. Remember what rich gameplay some roguelikes have, forgetting how they only lead to pain
2. Fire up one of my favorite roguelikes
3. Play until one character does particularly well, then dies from being stung repeatedly by a bee while putting armor on
4. Go on the forums and read about how much of an incredible expert you need to be to beat the game
5. Wonder why I ever started in the first place
6. Stop playing roguelikes because they only lead to pain

I imagine there must be some people out there who prefer permadeath, and I would like to be able to adopt that attitude. So tell me, how is permadeath fun? If it's because it raises the stakes, how do you deal with the frustration? Or is there something else about it that makes it great?

Honestly you just need to take a more optimistic approach. Think "why did I die this time"? Alter your method accordingly. Keep doing so. I bet from now on you'll go to a previous, cleared level and walking out a few steps around a point to scout before trying on heavy armor eh?

[MyOtheHedgeFox]

I haven't even read the topic. Its subject is already worth a thanks.

[pratamawirya]

I don't enjoy permadeath, but I still like it much more than checkpoints.

EDIT: rephrasing

[rchandra]

even though I know the fastest learning is sticking with one race/god/blueprint, I like to vary it. I've found that permadeath hurts much less if I keep multiple characters alive at the same time. So right now I have a Kobold Berserker at around level 23, and a Mountain Dwarf Abyssal Knight at 13, and sometimes I try to get a OgHu, SpEn or some sort of blasting Fire Elementalist up there with them.

Each death hurts less as I have something else I can fall back on, a sort of 'save point' or 'supply camp'. Even though losing with say the AK just means I'm going to start another AK soon (had a few die in the same neighbourhood), I know I can play the others a bit too.

In terms of actively enjoying permadeath, it makes success feel much better (haven't had a win in Crawl yet, but many in DoomRL with many challenges) as you know it wasn't just winning at each small section through luck. There's been times I've needed to bull through parts of FInal Fantasy games that way, and it never feels good. In Crawl, even the lesser successes (finding a rune, clearing a branch, finding the Lair, finding the Temple regularly with a new character type, etc.) feel pretty good.

Now if only there were a magical way for me to use my knowledge in roguelikes ... not only are most of my deaths avoidable, but many/most of them I don't learn anything new as I already knew what I was doing wrong.

[Roderic]

how do you deal with the frustration? Or is there something else about it that makes it great?

Emotional detachment.

The greatness of the permadeath is the awareness of our mortality and the irreversibility of things in life (memento mori, gaudeamus igitur, et cetera ). Besides, there is a component of joy when seeing the gruesome deaths of poor oblivious fools in a vane attempt to achieve an odd artifact for whatever stupid reason (I remark my first point here).

As a general rule to frustration


you can let your rage go:


Or my fav:

[greepish]

The greatness of the permadeath is the awareness of our mortality and the irreversibility of things in life (memento mori, gaudeamus igitur, et cetera ).

Heh, before you know it we'll have Crawl haikus

[mageykun]

Perhaps the easiest way to learn to enjoy permadeath is to try playing without it for a little while. If you start playing in wizmode or save scumming all the time it makes the game boring (once you get past the initial thrill of 'winning', and doing whatever you want). You're not scraping by a difficult challenge with just luck and your wits- instead you're rerolling the dice until you get 20s all game. It sucks the life out of it. There's no sense of worth or achievement on success- and there's no fear or adrenaline when you're in serious danger of losing something you've put so much work and heart into.

Emotional detachment.

The greatness of the permadeath is the awareness of our mortality and the irreversibility of things in life (memento mori, gaudeamus igitur, et cetera ). Besides, there is a component of joy when seeing the gruesome deaths of poor oblivious fools in a vane attempt to achieve an odd artifact for whatever stupid reason (I remark my first point here).

I would actually advocate the opposite. Even when you die horrible- perhaps especially when you die horribly- the experience is more rewarding if you're emotionally invested in a character. I mean yes, the obvious argument for permadeath is it makes victory all the sweeter, but it does the same for defeat too. A grim, heartbreaking defeat can is an emotional experience- it gets downright cathartic at times. Taking a xom-esce gleeful indifference towards your characters might be a fun indulgence, but you're missing out on the fine sweet sorrow of a caliginous release.

Heh, before you know it we'll have Crawl haikus

We already do, actually.

[hayenne]

We already do, actually.

Don't forget learndb's bit:

Henzell says...

• <Danei> My character's skills run the gamut / but not Traps and Doors; I just spam it / Now on hive level 4 / I shall search for the door / search, search, search, search, search, search, search, splash, damn it.
• <punpun> what is grum? baby don't hurt me.
• An elf corpse falls through the shaft / Damn centaur drowns with all his arrows / ITEM: nothing, nothing, nothing
• GDA! / DAMN! / mimic
• < CatEater> is this the nature of crawl? a pack of yaktaurs, about to kill a player, forever?
• Ignite it and kite it. Sticky flame for the fame.
• <nixor> aye, you gotta bounce those bolts, trizap the fool, or you end up dead like a dolt, with your blood in a pool
• Grum is engulfed in a mutagenic fog! Grum evaporates and reforms as a warg!
• <[Hanged_Man]> this dgsk's ghost tile has a spear and a knife <]Hanged_Man]> for some reason I don't think that was what he had in life
• <mong> five oklobs stand guard / over the entrance to slime / one ice storm is cast

https://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=poetry

[Sealer]

Permadeath is the one thing that keeps me from spending more time with roguelikes. The cycle is:

1. Remember what rich gameplay some roguelikes have, forgetting how they only lead to pain
2. Fire up one of my favorite roguelikes
3. Play until one character does particularly well, then dies from being stung repeatedly by a bee while putting armor on
4. Go on the forums and read about how much of an incredible expert you need to be to beat the game
5. Wonder why I ever started in the first place
6. Stop playing roguelikes because they only lead to pain

I imagine there must be some people out there who prefer permadeath, and I would like to be able to adopt that attitude. So tell me, how is permadeath fun? If it's because it raises the stakes, how do you deal with the frustration? Or is there something else about it that makes it great?

I enjoy permadeath in many ways. I enjoyed permadeath in my last win which was harder than most games where I didn't win. The most satisfying win in any game maybe apart from Planescape Torment. I throughoughly enjoy permadeath whenever I get through a branch and grab a rune. I enjoy permadeath immensely when I defeat Sigmund with a sub-optimal character, or get through otherwise difficult situations.

Every one of my achievements is magnified by a 1000 times because of permadeath. I played probably around 1500 games, and won 3 of them. I do not want it any other way, not because I like being beat, but because I hate having my achievements being trivialised, simplified. This game is not meant to be beaten every time, if it was I would quit after the first win, and it probably wouldn't even feel that good.

I've never played a game so consistently as with crawl - I'm pretty sure this is the 4th year I'm into this game, but honestly I neither remember nor do I care.

[AtT]

You gotta have some of these.

[nicolae]

You gotta have some of these.

I don't see how Summon Small Mammals or Orbs of Destruction help with permadeath.

[TehDruid]

It all comes down to what kind of person you are. As people have already told you in this topic, they (and I for that matter) get much more satisfaction for beating a game without saves etc. Play Diablo on hardcore mode, for example, and you'll notice that the way you act in the whole game changes. The risk is higher, just like the enjoyment you get from winning. It's like gambling in a way. You can always save-scum, if you find permadeath to be unfair. I won't frown upon it personally, it's your game, play it in whatever manner you want.

I know people that absolutely love games which just throw loot and achievements at them and they think they are awesome for beating these games. Mostly, it's die-hard console-boys, but there's a good deal of PC gamers out there too, that are of the well-known "casual" genre, which prefer this style of play-through in games. Good for them. Sometimes I like to relax with easy games too. Heck, I'll even play some stupid Facebook game if I'm in the mood! The thing is, permadeath offers exhilaration and a sense of suspense that no limited amount of save slots or checkpoints can offer.

Now admittedly, I might be kind of a whipersnaper (or however you spell it ) and not have memories of very old computers and consoles, but I belong to the PC gamer community since the age of 12 (back in 2000, when I started playing DOS games on a crappy IBM machine I got my greedy little hands on that had 8 MB memory and a hard drive of 127 MB and no CD drive just a floppy drive) and I'm more than proud of it. The way I see it, the "problem" is that too many games for the PC have recently adopted this console-y logic and that's why most of them are a bunch of awesome graphics and not much else. I find myself playing more and more indie games lately because of this, mainly. There are some real treasures from small developers out on the internet, and DC:SS is one of these treasures. The best thing for me is that these games with their "crappy" graphics etc remind me of my days as a kid, when every game looked wicked shiny, polished and awesome even if it wasn't, really.

Sorry for the autobiography and the bitching, I just felt like saying all this.

[dpeg]

I don't think it's really a matter of console vs PC. Permanent death was completely normal for shmups and platform game of the 90s. (Incidentally, recent scrolling shumps often come with a save option -- good games killed by a misfeature, as I can say from experience.) So I think it's rather that someone guessed or figured out that being able to save will sell more copies. Perhaps a case of instant gratification for the players? Or that permanent death might require too much player-game interaction which could lead to bad reviews/mouth propaganda and hence sales?