Deso wrote:A progression system makes people feel like they accomplished something even tough they lost the run.
Why is that bad, you play the games to have a good time, don't you? Also, there are a lot of threads by new players about lost runs, where they say they felt good about getting their first rune or getting to Zot for the first time. Basically, feeling accomplished about a lost run is not unique to games with meta-progression system, DCSS has it as well.
b0rsuk wrote:Except they bleed over from game to game. When I play DCSS or Dusk, I know I'm having success because I've become a better player. In Crypt of the Necrodancer, unlocking a rifle or bow goes a loong way towards completing a zone. I start wondering if I really became better at a game or the game became easier over time? Permanent unlocks rig the game from the start, unless they're a tradeoff like another playable character.
There are usually extra difficulty modes to make the game harder after making it easier by unlocking stuff (like Deso mentioned). It's like a seewsaw easier-harder-easier-harder etc., helps keep experience fresh. I agree, that it makes it more difficult to judge personal growth, but it's already difficult to judge personal growth regardless, what with the whole Dunning–Kruger effect. In fact achievements often are a tool for tracking how good you are at the game (so you should be for them and not against
).
No experience with Crypt of the Necrodancer, but I would expect there to be games where progression system is implemented poorly (or is just not to my tastes), those cases don't make the system as a whole bad by default, I don't think.
b0rsuk wrote:Does it work that way in practice? (Steam) achievements and unlocks cause a steady stream of new threads in a game forum. People clearly torture themselves, for example playing a character they don't like, or proclaim to lose interest after getting all achievements. Achievements and unlocks become the target for surprisingly many people.
That's not really different from DCSS, people often complain about trouble with getting their stabber/felid/greaterplayer/atheist/15-rune win. Achievements are just stats with a badge attached, stats are not bad by themselves, and a lot of appeal for playing web-tiles comes from moderately robust stat tracking. Badges also are not bad by themselves, if implemented smartly they can give much needed direction to newer players (like branch order and such) or give good ideas about interesting challenges to veterans. Also DCSS already has achievements, it's just to get to them you have to execute complicated beem commands (complicated for me, not being a code warlock and all).
b0rsuk wrote:The parts I didn't quote and respond to are those I might be wrong about, so I'm pretending that didin't happen.
I appreciate the finesse
, same back at ya.
andrew wrote:Also, just based on my experience with ToME4 --- there are actions one does for the sole purpose of getting an unlock. (Unlocking Skirmishers required me to do a bizarre dance, having not much to do with normal play; betraying the merchant is never the correct choice, except the first time you get a Rogue that far, for the unlock.) This is annoying (at least to me). Also, before you unlock the Transmogrification Chest the game is just horribly tedious.
The effect of all this is to force new players to play a harder and far inferior game. (And not even necessarily more accessible --- if all new players are forced to worship Trog, then that makes it less accessible if you think Makhleb is easier; you'd have to start your "guide for new players" with a strategy for getting the Makhleb unlock.)
I'm all for there being an option to skip unlocking stuff in games, same as an option for difficulty setting. Never played ToME, mechanics looked very confused and untidy to me, all the decimals, dozens of stats for each item, screenfulls of "+5.2% to that" and "-29.17 to this", but again one bad example doesn't make the system as a whole bad.
To clarify, I don't think DCSS needs a meta-progression system, but I also don't think other games somehow are made worse just by having it, it's a case-by-case thing like most other things in life. DCSS, in my humble opinion, could benefit from a more explicit achievement system (or more robust stat tracking, if you like), but that would probably be a lot of work for the wizards of the code (I'm not even sure if servers could handle the extra load).