Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?


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What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?

Poll ended at Saturday, 15th February 2020, 17:04

They're good.
0
No votes
They're bad.
5
100%
 
Total votes : 5
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Sunday, 8th December 2019, 17:04

Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Crawl?

How about it, folks? What do you think about incentive structures in crawl?

Feel free to elaborate below if your thoughts on this matter don't fit cleanly or are not limited to one of the poll options!
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Sunday, 8th December 2019, 21:45

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

It's not clear what you mean by "incentive structures" without further context.
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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 00:52

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that

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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 01:26

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Uh, a little worried that if this thread isn't good I'm not going to get the response I'm looking for...
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 01:57

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

I just don't know enough about what you're asking to answer this. It's too broad a question.

For example:

The incentives for (even untrained) wand-use in the early-game? In a good place.
The incentives for luring? In a bad place.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 03:45

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

duvessa wrote:when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that

same
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Zot Zealot

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 14:29

Siegurt wrote:It's not clear what you mean by "incentive structures" without further context.

tealizard, please note that there are not only native English speakers in the Tavern.

Concerning me: when I read the poll's question I first looked up the meaning of "incentive". Now I know the German word but I'm still not sure about the meaning of "incentive structures". Do you mean extra areas reachable via teleporter (ghost vaults) or portals (sewer/volcano/bailey etc.)?
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 15:12

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Oh, I was just referring to the comment in the other thread that used this language. I am unironically interested in whatever implojin might have said under other circumstances.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:05

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

tealizard wrote:Oh, I was just referring to the comment in the other thread that used this language. I am unironically interested in whatever implojin might have said under other circumstances.

Perhaps you could post a link to that comment so we could know what you're talking about?
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Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:14

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Some are good, some are bad. Granular discussion of each and the reasons for it might be interesting.

when i was in middle and high school i was one of those annoying "debate me" atheists and just a giant asshole in general (as you do when you're in middle and high school (i'm still an asshole yes but not as much of one)) and one time i called this old guy a moron because he said he didn't believe in the big bang, and later he started talking about how when snow falls on the ground, it falls in neat smooth sheets instead of being all lumpy and random, and that science can't explain that


How long ago was this? IIRC the theory was proposed in the 20's, and science has long since settled that it must have happened in some form (with some issues like inflation etc still not having completely pinned down explanations). But some guy born during WW2 or something might not have kept up with science. More awkward was the "explanation" he gave you afterward.

To avoid such explanations we need coherent standards.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:22

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Siegurt wrote:Perhaps you could post a link to that comment so we could know what you're talking about?


Thread, and page.
Direct quote:

Implojin wrote:man, I have so many thoughts on the topic of incentive structures in Crawl but this thread is bad
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Slime Squisher

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 17:34

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Okay, I'm writing a full post on this, but I'm probably going to put it in GDD and it will probably be a few days.

To me, this topic is fundamental to why Stone Soup is a bad game, and I'd prefer that the thread about it be one of good faith participation.


Here's an attempt at a working definition from my last draft:
(For the non-native english speakers here, what I mean by "incentive structures" is "the aspects of the game's ruleset which, when taken together, create incentives that shape player behavior".)

One summary might be that Crawl's incentive structures are ass-backwards, negatively impacting gameflow in such a jarring fashion that it's hard to play the game anymore, once you've seen it. There really is a lot to write about this; examples where individual rules and rule interactions create perverse incentives are so numerous in Crawl that it becomes work to individually cite them. It's a systemic issue with the game -- to me, it seems this was completely overlooked by Linley, and later the early DCSS team. Anyway, real post later.

edit: A lot of these problems are not new topics of discussion for the Tavern, and much of it is not worth rehashing. My perspective here, in treating this general class of issue as player behavioral incentivization problems, stems from my opinion that a lot of these issues with the game's usability tend to reduce down to Crawl's original game designer(s) obviously having had a massive blind spot for how players might actually interact with the game.

Obviously, some of that is always going to be subjective, but, y'know. You read stories of oldschool devs trying to appease Miyamoto to get their work onto the Famicom: Linley's Crawl would never have made that cut. Ever. It's just not playable enough.



P.S.: Slay The Spire is actually kind of a neat game. Thanks for the recommendation!
Last edited by Implojin on Monday, 9th December 2019, 18:54, edited 3 times in total.

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Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 18:15

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

I think we need to go back to the days where people banged on plants endlessly to train up a new weapon.

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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 9th December 2019, 19:47

Re: Poll: What do you think about incentive structures in Cr

Will look forward to reading.
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