Most Difficult Species?


If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 200

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Monday, 18th June 2018, 15:00

Most Difficult Species?

Which species(es) do you consider the most difficult to play? Why?

I am leaving the definition of "difficult" loose, could be win percent or just hard to understand how to win with or whatever.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8313

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Monday, 18th June 2018, 15:17

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Naga because it's slow. Loads of speed 11 and slower monsters that are easy or completely irrelevant on other species become really dangerous for nagas, and they have garbage AC for the first half of the game to boot.

For this message the author duvessa has received thanks: 2
nago, sanka

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 41

Joined: Thursday, 20th March 2014, 13:09

Post Monday, 18th June 2018, 15:49

Re: Most Difficult Species?

My personal weakness is Felid, i'd have every race marked off if not for those damn cats. The only race that cannot make use of the insanely broken axe weapon, only race that cannot make use of the insanely broken (f)ire command , extremely low hp and ac, your best bet is to try to get good enough at magic to turn yourself into something that sucks less.

And the "lives" thing just tilts me, i hate the mechanic and usually shift q when i die, but it's so much less satisfying then the glorious "game over" screen. I don't know why but it's part of what drives me to keep at my attempts and not seeing it when i die may be the biggest reason i'll never win Felid. Even if i keep going and die to something else later on, it *feels* like the mistake that caused my first death is what made me lose the game not the mistake that caused my last death.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 71

Joined: Saturday, 10th January 2015, 22:27

Post Monday, 18th June 2018, 21:14

Re: Most Difficult Species?

It's actually Spriggans for me.

Not because they're hard to win with, but because their main gimmick is "tiny, fragile and fast," which means far more situations where the right thing to do is run away and reset the fight. Every species has to do a certain amount of retreating and repositioning, but Spriggans are custom-built for it. Add in the fact that their aptitudes lean towards hit-or-miss situations that encourage resetting (Did my hex affect them? Did the sleeping monster wake up? Did I successfully dodge? Etc.) and I can't help but find them boring and annoying to play. So mostly dangerous because I end up too irritated to take the "optimal" option to run away every time, and end up getting killed as a result.
User avatar

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 4049

Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56

Post Monday, 18th June 2018, 21:21

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Octopode for me, with an incredibly terrible win rate of 1/62 = 1.6%.
HOFEMDHeHuReMDHuHOCjDsHuNaCjHuHuSENeGEFEMDBeDDFiHOWzVpVMHuEEHEMoDEHuDDAsHaBeKoAK
CeVMMfWnMiAKTeAMDrIEFoVMVSFiMuVMGhGlVpMoHaWrSpWzOgGlTrMoCeWnMfBeMiSkDrEEGrFiFoGlDgEnFeNe
OpGlHuSuDDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVMHaAMBaEnHuMoHOWnDsWzDDHuDgWnGnBeFeIEMiEnMfCj

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 273

Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19

Post Wednesday, 20th June 2018, 01:40

Re: Most Difficult Species?

I'd say any low AC species like Octopodes and Felid, as they require you to fundamentally up your tactical game if you want to win consistently. Your positioning needs to be completely on point to even have a chance to win, and you need to be prepared to haul ass and run away at any moment.

Also, certain enemies are alot more threatening than usual, so that takes some times getting used to it, like hydrae which completely shred any EV/SH based character, like an Octopode, even past the point where a player stops being scared of them, like in swamp.

My first Octopode win took about 70~ tries, compared to 2 tries to win mummy (IMO melee mummy is extremely easy and just requires the same tactics you would normally use on High AC melee.)

However, after the initial difficulty spike, Octopodes are actually really fun and very consistently winnable.

My initial winrate with Octopodes was like 1%, now it's :

  Code:
Vajrapani (op) has played 166 games, between 2016-11-06 00:47:30 and 2018-06-20 03:58:30, won 10 (6.0%), high score 1902263, total score 19289569, total turns 2580720, play-time/day 0:12:35, total time 5d+4:13:23.


So, I've basically quintupled my Octopode win rate after learning how to play with them, but it was extremely difficult at first, and made me hate the species since I was trying to win it for GreaterPlayer, but then I gradually fell in love with it.

I don't think there's any species that's 'difficult' as in 'you can never consistently win with this', but there's definitely 'difficult' ones that force you to get used to a different way of playing the game.
15/26 on the way to GreaterOctopode (Win all backgrounds as an Octopode)

Progress so far : OpFi, OpGl, OpWn, OpAr, OpCK, OpMo, OpBe, OpHu, OpVM, OpAM, OpWr, OpFE, OpEE, OpNe, OpTm

Spider Stomper

Posts: 200

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Monday, 25th June 2018, 14:40

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Seems to be delicate vs slow.

I agree with both although once you figure out how to deal with delicate I feel slow is harder over the long term since its tactically limiting.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 168

Joined: Monday, 12th September 2016, 16:25

Post Thursday, 26th July 2018, 21:55

Re: Most Difficult Species?

braveplatypus wrote:And the "lives" thing just tilts me, i hate the mechanic and usually shift q when i die,


Not that kitties aren't a nuisance, but it seems like this might be the problem here; lives are like get-out-of-jail-free cards, which is fortunate because they get into jail a lot. You don't lose any skills, after all, just some of your woefully small HP.

I only won a kitty by resolving that I'd play nothing but kitties.

Dis Charger

Posts: 1948

Joined: Saturday, 2nd February 2013, 09:52

Post Friday, 27th July 2018, 20:23

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Aean wrote:It's actually Spriggans for me.

Not because they're hard to win with, but because their main gimmick is "tiny, fragile and fast,"

I think you are overstating the fragility of spriggans. They have a chance to have a lot of AC and EV because they CAN wear armour, unlike felids and octopodes. Look here:

https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/magi ... 160301.txt

32 AC and 37 EV. Only 158 HPs, but practically 200 with the spirit shield.

Personally I think that Na Op Fo Fe and Mu are awful, but all other species are at least decent.

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 464

Joined: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 23:37

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 19:28

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Why is Mu bad? Just start as a gladiator with a quarterstaff (staves are cheap, good for low aptitudes), take Okawaru, go heavy armor, get a lajatang of vampricism after a while, and them win. Tarantellas and such are dangerous, but mummies have normal hp, high MR, and normal speed.
Last edited by arandomperson12 on Saturday, 28th July 2018, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 295

Joined: Tuesday, 14th April 2015, 19:56

Location: France

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 20:37

Re: Most Difficult Species?

arandomperson12 wrote:Why is Mu bad? Just start as a gladiator with a quarterstaff (staves are cheap, good for low attributes), take Okawaru, go heavy armor, get a lajatang of vampricism after a while, and them win. Tarantellas and such are dangerous, but mummies have normal hp, high MR, and normal speed.

Mu are basically worse HO, the only aptitudes where Mu is better than HO are Spellcasting (doesn't matter much overall) and Transmutation (-2 instead of -3, Mummies can't cast most of them anyway). Otherwise HO is better at everything else, level up faster and can quaff potions. So Mu is basically : take HO, nerf everything, forbid potions. And you ask why it is bad...
3 runes : MiMo^Ru, HOFi^Beogh, TrMo^Yredelemnul, GrFi^Ru
4 runes : DDFi^Makhleb
5 runes : GrEE^Vehumet
15 runes : MiFi^Ru, NaWz^Sif Muna
I mostly play offline or online on CXC

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 464

Joined: Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 23:37

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 20:41

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Fingolfin wrote:
arandomperson12 wrote:Why is Mu bad? Just start as a gladiator with a quarterstaff (staves are cheap, good for low aptitudes), take Okawaru, go heavy armor, get a lajatang of vampricism after a while, and them win. Tarantellas and such are dangerous, but mummies have normal hp, high MR, and normal speed.

Mu are basically worse HO, the only aptitudes where Mu is better than HO are Spellcasting (doesn't matter much overall) and Transmutation (-2 instead of -3, Mummies can't cast most of them anyway). Otherwise HO is better at everything else, level up faster and can quaff potions. So Mu is basically : take HO, nerf everything, forbid potions. And you ask why it is bad...

It's not a good race, but it is still much better than Nagas, Octopodes, Felids (maybe better for optimal players but much worse for average players), and Formicid.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 17

Joined: Saturday, 7th July 2018, 03:56

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 21:13

Re: Most Difficult Species?

"Mummies are better than formicids".

hehe

Blades Runner

Posts: 556

Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 22:15

Re: Most Difficult Species?

There is no need to compare Mu to an above median species like HO. You can just compare them to Hu (a below median species). Compared to human, mummy cannot drink potions, levels more slowly, is vulnerable to fire, and is worse at everything except fighting (tied), necromancy (tied) and spellcasting. They are also undead, but that is often a drawback. Hu is better than Mu at every background in the game, and Hu is not very good to start with. Not being able to quaff potions is really, really bad btw. Mu is either the worst or second worst species largely because of that.
Remove spell hunger.

For this message the author Hellmonk has received thanks: 2
duvessa, Fingolfin
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1496

Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57

Post Saturday, 28th July 2018, 23:10

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Weirdly enough, having many options closed off, being immune to a good range of attacks, and having lots of inventory real estate make Mu one of the nicest species to play.
I Feel the Need--the Need for Beer
Spoiler: show
3DsBeTr, 15DsFiRu, 3DsMoNe, 3FoHuGo, 3TrArOk, 3HOFEVe, 3MfGlOk, 4GrEEVe, 3BaIEChei, 3HuMoOka, 3MiWnQaz, 3VSFiAsh, 3DrTmMakh, 3DsCKXom, 3OgMoOka, 3NaFiOka, 3FoFiOka, 3MuFEVeh, 3CeHuOka, 3TrMoTSO, 3DEFESif

For this message the author Shtopit has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 29th July 2018, 02:49

Re: Most Difficult Species?

These are the races, ordered by recent win percentage among all players. (recent is version >= 0.20)
  Code:
<causative> !lg * recent /won s=crace o=-%
<Sequell> 17893/1899106 games for * (recent): 0/19x High Elf [0.00%], 402/124801x Octopode [0.32%], 524/118258x Draconian [0.44%], 340/64541x Spriggan [0.53%], 615/112787x Deep Elf [0.55%], 1515/260133x Demonspawn [0.58%], 343/53324x Mummy [0.64%], 323/47540x Human [0.68%], 238/34767x Vampire [0.68%], 291/41439x Tengu [0.70%], 326/40736x Ogre [0.80%], 238/29483x Kobold [0.81%], 219/25773x Demigod [0.85%],
<Sequell> 283/33093x Felid [0.86%], 639/72047x Formicid [0.89%], 502/53789x Merfolk [0.93%], 1002/103284x Gnoll [0.97%], 588/58636x Troll [1.00%], 331/28297x Ghoul [1.17%], 524/42150x Naga [1.24%], 749/60194x Vine Stalker [1.24%], 1115/88536x Hill Orc [1.26%], 307/24335x Halfling [1.26%], 1781/116311x Gargoyle [1.53%], 2718/173540x Minotaur [1.57%], 478/29122x Barachi [1.64%], 545/32620x Centaur [1.67%],
<Sequell> 957/29556x Deep Dwarf [3.24%]

There are flaws with this query. If new players or speedrunners make many failed attempts at a race, they can bring the winrate down for reasons unrelated to the race's merits, and a race played more by experienced and safer players will have an artificially inflated winrate, again unrelated to the race's merits. Octopode comes in last (among non-obsolete races), which makes sense.

Now here are the races, ordered by recent win percentage, of tenpercenters. Tenpercenters are greatplayers (won every race) with >10% winrate - used as a proxy for experienced players who consistently use a fairly safe playstyle.
  Code:
<causative> !lg tenpercenters recent /won s=crace o=-%
<Sequell> 2707/10664 games for tenpercenters (recent): 64/483x Octopode [13.25%], 66/418x Deep Elf [15.79%], 61/376x Tengu [16.22%], 139/822x Mummy [16.91%], 58/294x Demigod [19.73%], 78/392x Formicid [19.90%], 65/324x Spriggan [20.06%], 46/228x Felid [20.18%], 76/365x Ghoul [20.82%], 86/361x Troll [23.82%], 106/439x Hill Orc [24.15%], 59/237x Kobold [24.89%], 56/218x Halfling [25.69%], 81/306x Ogre
<Sequell> [26.47%], 81/302x Draconian [26.82%], 140/518x Vine Stalker [27.03%], 146/533x Minotaur [27.39%], 189/682x Gnoll [27.71%], 86/306x Naga [28.10%], 132/467x Gargoyle [28.27%], 64/213x Vampire [30.05%], 68/226x Human [30.09%], 256/834x Demonspawn [30.70%], 83/265x Merfolk [31.32%], 88/247x Barachi [35.63%], 235/589x Deep Dwarf [39.90%], 98/219x Centaur [44.75%]

Interpret this as you will. There are certainly artifacts in this data as well and it can't be considered anything like a precise ranking. We can probably say Octopodes are fairly weak, though. This agrees with the stats for all players.

Lastly, let's take a look at the top winrate recent players. All of these players had a recent winrate >50%, and also >20 recent wins.
  Code:
<causative> !lg MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn recent /won s=crace o=%
<Sequell> 984/1446 games for MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn (recent): 16/18x Halfling [88.89%], 21/25x Gargoyle [84.00%], 42/50x Centaur [84.00%], 140/167x Naga [83.83%], 31/37x Vampire [83.78%], 42/52x Deep Dwarf [80.77%], 20/25x Merfolk [80.00%], 43/56x Draconian [76.79%], 39/51x Gnoll
<Sequell> [76.47%], 28/37x Troll [75.68%], 22/30x Human [73.33%], 27/37x Ghoul [72.97%], 16/22x Barachi [72.73%], 29/41x Minotaur [70.73%], 20/30x Tengu [66.67%], 28/42x Ogre [66.67%], 80/123x Hill Orc [65.04%], 23/36x Formicid [63.89%], 23/38x Vine Stalker [60.53%], 59/98x Mummy [60.20%], 18/30x Demigod [60.00%], 19/32x Kobold [59.38%], 16/27x Deep Elf [59.26%], 11/20x Felid [55.00%], 144/267x Demonspawn
<Sequell> [53.93%], 16/32x Octopode [50.00%], 11/23x Spriggan [47.83%]

Again we see octopode almost at the bottom.
Last edited by Berder on Sunday, 29th July 2018, 04:16, edited 1 time in total.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

bel

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1892

Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05

Post Sunday, 29th July 2018, 04:13

Re: Most Difficult Species?

You don't need Sequell queries to show that Octopodes are hard.

I never found Nagas or Fo to be hard. I don't play Mummies. Felids are not hard, but are very annoying.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 29th July 2018, 04:40

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Incidentally, these are the class win rates for >50% recent players with >20 recent wins:
  Code:
<causative> !lg MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn recent /won s=class o=%
<Sequell> 984/1446 games for MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn (recent): 1/1x Death Knight [100.00%], 57/68x Artificer [83.82%], 28/36x Abyssal Knight [77.78%], 78/103x Fighter [75.73%], 31/41x Warper [75.61%], 26/35x Air Elementalist [74.29%], 45/61x Berserker [73.77%], 36/49x Monk
<Sequell> [73.47%], 253/347x Wanderer [72.91%], 22/31x Summoner [70.97%], 37/53x Assassin [69.81%], 30/43x Earth Elementalist [69.77%], 36/53x Gladiator [67.92%], 20/30x Conjurer [66.67%], 26/39x Fire Elementalist [66.67%], 29/44x Ice Elementalist [65.91%], 29/44x Skald [65.91%], 25/39x Transmuter [64.10%], 40/63x Hunter [63.49%], 26/43x Venom Mage [60.47%], 26/45x Necromancer [57.78%], 18/32x Wizard
<Sequell> [56.25%], 24/43x Enchanter [55.81%], 24/54x Arcane Marksman [44.44%], 17/49x Chaos Knight [34.69%]

Of course, the rankings here aren't absolute, as the sample sizes aren't too large and many of the winrates are very close to one another. It does clearly show the badness of AM and CK.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 8313

Joined: Sunday, 5th May 2013, 08:25

Post Sunday, 29th July 2018, 05:26

Re: Most Difficult Species?

wow thanks I never realized Mu was better than Op or that AK was better than IE, my eyes have been opened

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Sunday, 29th July 2018, 07:06

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Mu better than Op should not be a surprise. You might think that IE has an easier time on D1 than AK, and you'd be right:
  Code:
<causative> !lg MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn recent ie s=place
<Sequell> 44 games for MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn (recent ie): 29x D:$, 3x D:2, 2x D:8, 2x D:3, Lab, Ossuary, D:14, Zot:5, D:12, D:5, Pan, Elf:3
<causative> !lg MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn recent ak s=place
<Sequell> 36 games for MalcolmRose|dying5ever|Dynast|NicuTudor|Nebukadnezar|ebarrett|Berder|gammafunk|Sphara|BestGodBeogh|Pekkekk|jumbajumba|ParticlePhysics|gameguard|dstrtn (recent ak): 28x D:$, 3x D:1, D:3, Lair:6, Vaults:2, D:2, D:6

no IE deaths on D1, 3 AK deaths on D1. But the AK starts made up for it by dying less later on. That would seem to make sense with AK banishment decisively handling most early/midgame threats. Or perhaps it is just a random fluke.
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Spider Stomper

Posts: 248

Joined: Monday, 4th September 2017, 10:53

Post Monday, 30th July 2018, 13:13

Re: Most Difficult Species?

You can't judge relative character strength by using Sequell statistics. The population is heavily biased and nowhere near to equivalent sampling or even randomized selection you would need to obtain objective data. The results simply reflect this bias, so you cannot say "AK is better than IE" you can only say "the player population is better with AK than IE".

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3953

Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Monday, 30th July 2018, 13:27

Re: Most Difficult Species?

I suspect it can depend on species also. I would not be surprised if NaIE was better than NaAK but MiIE was worse than MiAK.
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
Twin account of Sandman25

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Tuesday, 23rd December 2014, 23:39

Post Monday, 30th July 2018, 13:42

Re: Most Difficult Species?

crawlnoob wrote:you cannot say "AK is better than IE" you can only say "the player population is better with AK than IE".

If you can say "the player population *among players that are most similar to me* is better with AK than IE" then that seems useful, doesn't it? Gives you a hint of your own chance of winning. How else can you estimate that chance?

I suspect it can depend on species also. I would not be surprised if NaIE was better than NaAK but MiIE was worse than MiAK.

yep
streaks: 5 fifteen rune octopodes. 15 diverse chars. 13 random chars. 24 NaWn^gozag.
251 total wins Berder hyperborean + misc
83/108 recent wins (76%)
guides: safe tactics value of ac/ev/sh forum toxicity

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 141

Joined: Wednesday, 30th August 2017, 23:08

Post Monday, 30th July 2018, 17:15

Re: Most Difficult Species?

To answer the OP, Mummies are the most difficult species to me. Part of the reason is that I've been on a quest to get greatplayer, greaterplayer, and polytheist, and mummy is one of two unwon species, so I haven't concentrated on it quite so much.

That said, I've played twice as many mummy games as most of the other species, including other "hard" species like felid and naga. (Discounting games I played before I buckled down and actually started winning.) No potions is a pretty huge detriment, and the rF- means sometimes you just die to a random orc wizard or whatever. Slowness is rough, but those races are pretty robust (and leap is really fun once you get used to it,) and fragility is rough too, but all the fragile races get something to balance it out. Mummies? They're just harder. Low aptitudes, fire vulnerability, you can't use half the game's "oh shit" buttons, and their only "upside feature" matters after you get past one of the hardest parts of the game, and even THEN, only if you're using necromancy spells.

I don't really need to argue whether anything is "OBJECTIVELY HARDER," but mummy's been my hardest species, for sure, and I'm saving it for last so I can pick any god and class, due to being finished with greaterplayer and polytheist.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 200

Joined: Saturday, 29th October 2016, 17:41

Post Friday, 3rd August 2018, 19:26

Re: Most Difficult Species?

VeryAngryFelid wrote:I suspect it can depend on species also. I would not be surprised if NaIE was better than NaAK but MiIE was worse than MiAK.


Certainly some species/start combos or conducts are MUCH harder. Although I personally like Op and have 15 runed more than one, OpBe where you stay Trog the whole time is, IMO, one of the harder things to do and I say this having 3 runed it. I also 15 runed an Oka->Zin completely transmutation-less Op and I still consider pure OpBe much harder than that. This is a somewhat special case because Trog nullifies the main way of compensating for the main species weakness. There are a few other cases of this for some other species. But overall even though OpBe is certainly very hard, some other Op combinations can be very strong so I do not consider them the most difficult species.

Edit: OpBe start is actually fairly easy, unlike many things its actually mid or later game that is a problem.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 257

Joined: Monday, 4th July 2011, 16:26

Post Saturday, 4th August 2018, 05:18

Re: Most Difficult Species?

As a decent but not great player (offline, winrate somewhere around 20% through greaterspecies run), I think it's felid. The entire game demanded maximal vigilance even with statue form online. It's plausible that felid is better than octopode in the midgame if spell drops are really poor for both, but the octopode has a fighting chance of eventually being comfortable to play again.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 91

Joined: Friday, 23rd January 2015, 13:15

Post Thursday, 11th October 2018, 10:21

Re: Most Difficult Species?

Hot take: Gnolls make every race look difficult by comparison.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 141

Joined: Wednesday, 30th August 2017, 23:08

Post Thursday, 11th October 2018, 18:46

Re: Most Difficult Species?

While we're bumping this thread - Stonar from the future can still say Mummy is my hardest species, now that I've won with it.

Return to Crazy Yiuf's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.