Just my two copper on wand removal...

[removeelyvilon]

I don't think Nagas, Chei, Mummies and what have you needed a nerf.

I sometimes get the feeling that the game difficulty is meassured based exclusively based on DDBe* standards.

I feel like that about a lot of changes such as more difficult vaults, volcano, desolation, vault endings, Zot changes, new and buffed up monsters etc.

I think they are hitting the wrong targets. I'd prefer if they'd tone down the species/backgrounds/gods they deem too strong directly instead of going for these broad 360° swings. Or should I say cleaves?

The strong aren't going to care about such changes. The "weak" get hit the more for it.

If I wanted to play a game with only 1-2 viable options, I'd play hellcrawl.


*Replace DDBe with whichever species/background/god combination you think is the strongest in the game.

[Dioneo]

As I keep saying in these threads, if Mummies and Nagas etc. were really as dependent on these items as people seem to believe, then they needed to be addressed anyway. If removing a few items is really so catastrophic for certain species (which I'm not personally convinced of) then your problem should be with the design of those species and not with the removal of the crutches which they (allegedly) need to be playable.

[severen]

As I keep saying in these threads, if Mummies and Nagas etc. were really as dependent on these items as people seem to believe, then they needed to be addressed anyway. If removing a few items is really so catastrophic for certain species (which I'm not personally convinced of) then your problem should be with the design of those species and not with the removal of the crutches which they (allegedly) need to be playable.

He didn't claim they were crutches. He claimed they were nerfs. In the case of a mummy at endgame this is a nerf, a rather large one in fact. This is not arguable. Its an obvious fact.

A mummy with a Wand of Heal Wounds is better than that same mummy without the wand of heals wounds.

Increasing the number of potions of heal wounds has no effect on that, therefore this is a nerf for mummies and lich form as well.

[Dioneo]

Again: my point is that if a mummy is entirely nonviable without finding a wand of heal wounds, then you should redesign the mummy, not worry about the wand. If you say (as people seem to be) "you can't play a mummy without these wands", then you are basically admitting that they were a crutch covering up for a broken mechanic. Yet everyone is freaking out over wand removal rather than calling for a mummy redesign. Not to mention that these changes were just announced and there hasn't been any time to actually test the new wandless game; people seem determined to panic over every modification to the game.

[severen]

Again: my point is that if a mummy is entirely nonviable without finding a wand of heal wounds, then you should redesign the mummy, not worry about the wand. If you say (as people seem to be) "you can't play a mummy without these wands", then you are basically admitting that they were a crutch covering up for a broken mechanic. If a species is utterly dependent on finding a certain item to be playable, then the problem is with the species in question, not with the item.

I think you need to rephrase your argument because by responding to statement that may be hyperbole you phrase a useful principle in a way that is not really applicable to the issue. Mummies just got nerfed. This is a fact. In order for the removal of wands to NOT be a nerf they would need to do some sort of partial redesign of mummy. No one in this thread has claimed mummies NEED WoHW although some people probably will and have made this claim. Oddly they did change Deep Dwarves but have done nothing for Mummies or lich form.

Mummies don't need a wand of heal wounds from the start but finding a wand of heal wounds was a great boon. This is no longer an aspect of mummy gameplay. Are mummies playable? I suppose that is a matter of perspective but in the end people can and have won them. Are they any less playable in the early and mid game? Only slightly because you only rarely even find a wand of heal wounds in early and mid game. However you generally eventually do find one and that was a great thing for mummies. But not anymore, now they just suck even harder.

No one absolutely requires ANY heal wounds. You can win the game without ever using heal wounds. You can do this even without playing a healing god.

However in the end game Healing in general is considered very strong. This is why Mahkleb is considered one of the top tier gods for ALL content. By taking away mummies only means of non-divine healing you have seriously nerfed their long term gameplay. However you can still 15 rune a mummy without a wand of heal wounds.

[removeelyvilon]

@Dioneo

I guess my last sentence was rather misleading. It's like severen pointed out - I don't think that X/Y is unplayable because of this change, but unquestionably a harder.
And just for the record, I don't run up and down the street swinging my arms and scream "crawl ruined FOREVER!" But it sounds like a fun way to confuse people. And get arrested, probably.

I will stick to my guns and adapt anyway, but to me it is clear that the overall difficulty of the game is going up and that some species/backgrounds/gods will take it better than others - which is perfectly normal, it works the same way in real life.
But if development will continue in the same way, some species/backgrounds/gods reall will become borderline unplayable, in which case I hope they do what you say and take a look at those features in question and kick them up a notch.

[Dioneo]

Fair enough, so the question now is: How difficult are mummies supposed to be? I don't have a strong opinion on the matter myself; if they are too fragile without reliable healing then that can be addressed in some other way. If they are intended to be super punishing then this only adds to that. My point was that if your main concern was mummy balance then wands are a terrible solution, since they are not guaranteed (meaning that mummies are then super dependent on luck) and since they are also available to other species (which would mean that they negatively impact the overall balance of the game just to help a single kind of character).

I haven't perceived any overall increase in difficulty (my own winrate has only been going up), but given that the game is in continual development things are bound to fluctuate from time to time; I just feel there's no real sense of proportion about these things. Even if things turn to the worse from one's own perspective, the older version are always available and there's always the possibility of making one's own fork or patch if it should come to that.

I accept your point about hyperbole (and I apologize if I came off as too harsh), but you have to admit that these forums are not exactly given to nuance and reflection. Every version is hailed as the "worst one yet" and every change is followed with various levels of complaints and occasional abuse hurled at the developers. I did my best to respond to the latest controversy, and I at least hope you get where I'm coming from now.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Healing is very strong early game. Late game it heals less damage than you typically get per turn... unless you are hasted... which is rare now.
Mummy has easier time late game than early game, the nerf is insignificant IMHO.

[Magipi]

Okay, so first of all, what is this wand removal thing? I found nothing in the news, and I certainly don't read commits daily.

[Dioneo]

Okay, so first of all, what is this wand removal thing? I found nothing in the news, and I certainly don't read commits daily.

You can find summaries in this thread.

[bel]

nvm

[PleasingFungus]

How on earth did naga/chei get nerfed? I'm stumped.

[Sar]

well Nagas did get hit hard by /hasting removal and I guess /tele is more important for Chei dudes maybe

[duvessa]

I think they are hitting the wrong targets. I'd prefer if they'd tone down the species/backgrounds/gods they deem too strong directly instead of going for these broad 360° swings. Or should I say cleaves?

I don't see why they can't do both.

[PleasingFungus]

well Nagas did get hit hard by /hasting removal and I guess /tele is more important for Chei dudes maybe

this is silliness.

[removeelyvilon]

well Nagas did get hit hard by /hasting removal and I guess /tele is more important for Chei dudes maybe

this is silliness.

It's not silly at all; it is quite simple actually.

1. You move very slowly as a naga/chei worshipper (or a combination thereof), especially at high piety levels. Moving mid-fight is the least thing (with some rare exceptions) you want to do since it allows monsters to get in a felt million of free attacks against you. This means that any method that allows you to manipulate your (or that of enemies for that matter) position on the battlefield rises in value. Teleportation is one such method.

2. In any naga/chei game, at some early stage, the game will force you at least once in the worst-case scenario: You are adjecent to, or worse, surrounded by enemies that you are not yet strong enough to defeat and too slow to run away from. This usally happens around D:10-11, a place I hence nicknamed "Cheibriado's End". Sure, even if you're piety is not maxed out, your increased stats and active abilties pull a lot of weight, but you still lack certain tools or skill levels to neutralize the threat at this stage of the game. You can avoid most of these situations before they happen with careful optimal tactics play and sound strategy, but no matter how clever you are, you could always stumble into a shaft or a teleport trap, amongst any other number of possibilities.

So, you are caught between a rock and a hard place, all you can do is burn consumables in hopes if brute-forcing your way out or to escape. Teleportation is one such consumable - usually one of the more promising ones in such a situation. What does all of this mean? Well, it simply means that having teleport available is a good safety meassure for emergencies and even more so for slow characters.

Therefore finding and identifying a wand of teleportation early was a big boon - it meant you were prepared for just such an occasion. It has multiple charges and can be recharged, so you had a healthy amount of teleportation available which makes the early stages of Cheibriados worship less of a gamble. Perhaps even made you consider worshipping it as an option if you originaly dismissed the idea, but that's neither here nor there.

For safe Cheibriados worship, you want to ideally have as much of these "safety meassures" - book of minor magic, fear, heal wounds etc. - available before you throw your knees at it's altar, or consider picking another god (I'd do it anyway because I'm a fanatic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyEF7fWOrEc).

The conclusion: Not having a tele wand is obviously worse than having one. It is even worserer if you are outsped by snails. So the removal of this wand (and HW to a lesser extend) is, in fact, a nerf to Naga and Cheibriados.

P.S. Tele wandy was also nice in extended for random silence or blurry vision problems but that's not restricted to slow characters.

[Lasty]

I am pleased to announce that nagas can still read and quaff, and that none of Chei's abilities are being removed!

[Sar]

Yeah well, back when I played Nagas I would often either learn Haste pretty early (can't do that now) or acquire a wand (ditto). Now I only have the same amount of potions every other race has. That's kind of a hit considering you can't just walk away lmao from most things as every other character can.

[Implojin]

Yeah well, back when I played Nagas I would often either learn Haste pretty early (can't do that now) or acquire a wand (ditto). Now I only have the same amount of potions every other race has. That's kind of a hit considering you can't just walk away lmao from most things as every other character can.

"Turns out one of drawbacks of being slow is being slow."

[Sar]

In my defense, you won't find a single post of me protesting Haste and /hasting removals. I'm just saying they do impact Nagas somewhat stronger than they do normal speed races. Well, in my opinion, anyway.

[dynast]

I dont see how lack of haste impacts the one race that does not need it. I would rather say that lack of haste impacts players with kiting builds.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I dont see how lack of haste impacts the one race that needs it the most

FTFY.

[Sar]

I dont see how lack of haste impacts the one race that does not need it.

I guess I just don't understand how to play Nagas, then. Or how to use Haste. Possibly, both!

[dynast]

I guess I just don't understand how to play Nagas, then. Or how to use Haste. Possibly, both!

You have to use constriction!

[VeryAngryFelid]

I still remember my pain of playing NaEn several years ago. Is it a kiting build because it is En or is it non-kiting build because it is Na? Haste would let all those dead characters survive.

[VeryAngryFelid]

You have to use constriction!

If you got Naga to XL 14, I am sure it won't die. The problems are much earlier.

[Sar]

It's XL13, actually!

[dynast]

I still remember my pain of playing NaEn several years ago. Is it a kiting build because it is En or is it non-kiting build because it is Na? Haste would let all those dead characters survive.

Its a shitty build is what it is.

[Sar]

Really? I thought NaEn was one of better Naga builds. The only thing that annoyed me was how the confused/unaware enemeis would reposition too fast compared to my speed. Stand still so I can stab you, damn it!

[dynast]

Really? I thought NaEn was one of better Naga builds. The only thing that annoyed me was how the confused/unaware enemeis would reposition too fast compared to my speed. Stand still so I can stab you, damn it!

Playing a robe wearing, slow moving, spell rng dependant Naga is your idea of best? When you can figure out why SpEn is a good combo i think you will understand why NaEn is a bad combo.

[NhorianScum]

Naga's move in combat all the time my dude, unless you worship Chei, then hit "a" and casualty move reality to better suit your needs.

Haste is good on Naga, they're kinda rigged to abuse the shit out of Cheibroidos but other gods are still desirable. Ignoring that they generally acquire for barding and are so hilariously fatsneaky by the time haste shows up that... it's just totally unnecessary in a 3 rune game.

Early game Na difficulty is a pretty bullshit learning curve but their consistency is significantly above average provided you ignore tavern meme's and in my experience their early diesel mut's/stealth prevent more unavoidable death than they cause in book backgrounds.

Edit: NaEn is pretty strong with Kiku/Ru/Panic button god. Dance/spray/confuse are fantastic defensive spells and corona has it's one early use ever in making early pspit spam accurate as fuck. They're just hilariously bad at En^Dith.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Its a shitty build is what it is.

Ok, I will take this as you changed your mind and agree that Naga really appreciates wand of hasting.

[dynast]

Its a shitty build is what it is.

Ok, I will take this as you changed your mind and agree that Naga really appreciates wand of hasting.

You are being dishonest if you do that. I dont see how you go "kiting background + face tanking race / fail = haste op".

[VeryAngryFelid]

You are being dishonest if you do that. I dont see how you go "kiting background + face tanking race / fail = haste op".

Maybe there is some misunderstanding. You claimed that Naga does not need haste, I countered with Naga needs it the most and even provided an example from my experience, you agreed that there is at leats one Naga shity combo. Isn't shitty combo less shitty if it has haste?

[Sar]

Playing a robe wearing

Well, most of my Nagas worn robes or lighter armours at least until mid/endgame...

slow moving

What other kind of Nagas is there? Very slow moving?

When you can figure out why SpEn is a good combo

You're greatly overestimating my mental capacities, I'm afraid.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Yes, it is a mistake to wear +0 plate armour as Naga. I cannot believe I am telling it to a guy who streaked huge number of NaWn.

[NhorianScum]

You missed the game where a 0 dodging lowstealth no Rmissile naga in chainmail evaporated one tile into shoals.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Oh, he is trolling. I checked a couple of his NaWn morgues, they are using robes early and ring mails at most late game.

[dynast]

You are being dishonest if you do that. I dont see how you go "kiting background + face tanking race / fail = haste op".

Maybe there is some misunderstanding. You claimed that Naga does not need haste, I countered with Naga needs it the most and even provided an example from my experience, Wow, the mental gymnastics. Instead of arguing over it i will take it back and instead say that naga is the least haste necessary race, assuming correct play.

Actually im gonna argue over it. I countered your example with your example is the least %won naga background, so provide a better one, one that makes sense and is not a bandaid on a poor player decision.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Actually im gonna argue over it. I countered your example with your example is the least %won naga background, so provide a better one, one that makes sense and is not a bandaid on a poor player decision.

Ok, let's argue. You are a Brazilian, right? If I am saying that fruits need special package to be delivered and provide an example of apples you cannot just say "Fruits do not need special package", "Apples are eaten less than bananas" and "Bananas do not need special package".

But let's get back to Nagas. What is that "proper way to play Nagas so that they don't need haste"? Join Chei? Train Stealth? Wear +0 plate armour as magic background? I am especially interested in NaEn since I tried different skilling strategy before I found what was wrong with the combo.

Edit. To make it clear: overpowered combos doesn't need haste: MiBe, DDFi etc. Shitty combos need haste, that's obvious to me.

[dynast]

You missed the game where a 0 dodging lowstealth no Rmissile naga in chainmail evaporated one tile into shoals.

The morgue sniping, now this is getting good. Yeah it was not a good strategy to not wear a shield on that shoals entrance where i got instantly netted barbed and drowned because i couldnt get out of it. Funny how i cleared elf 3 just fine before that. I thought i had that one on the pocket but nope, i suck.

Yes, it is a mistake to wear +0 plate armour as Naga. I cannot believe I am telling it to a guy who streaked huge number of NaWn.

Maybe instead of pointing out you should learn from that, who knows, you might beat my streak, also knowing WHEN to wear plate armor on a naga is important. But hey, robes on large species, it worked fine for ogres, should work for nagas aswell eh?

[VeryAngryFelid]

Maybe instead of pointing out you should learn from that, who knows, you might beat my streak, also knowing WHEN to wear plate armor on a naga is important. But hey, robes on large species, it worked fine for ogres, should work for nagas aswell eh?

Please don't assume I don't know how to use plate armour with Naga. I am saying that your mention of constriction implies that you are talking about XL 13+ Naga, of course I agree that we don't need haste at this point, you have about 150 HP, nice AC and good skills at that point. While I am talking in general, Naga needs that wand of hasting to survive early game. What are you going to do when you are pursued by a pack of gnolls with distortion weapon or a couple of ogres? Fight with low AC/EV and hope nothing bad happens? Isn't haste the only GUARANTEED way to avoid death in such situation?

[NhorianScum]

See, wasn't gonna mention who the chainnaga was... or comment on good/bad.

That shit was just absolutely hilarious. Pure tileschat gold.

[dynast]

Ok, let's argue. You are a Brazilian, right? If I am saying that fruits need special package to be delivered and provide an example of apples you cannot just say "Fruits do not need special package", "Apples are eaten less than bananas" and "Bananas do not need special package".

My argument would be that special package for apples does not payback and then you would have to show me how the apples sales go due to special packaging. No matter.

But let's get back to Nagas. What is that "proper way to play Nagas so that they don't need haste"? Join Chei? Train Stealth? Wear +0 plate armour as magic background? I am especially interested in NaEn since I tried different skilling strategy before I found what was wrong with the combo.

I build my nagas around being durable. My last run with shoals made me realise you cant do a shield-less naga as viable and i wont be doing them anymore, i was just messing around on another hunter run but if you ask me "should i go bow/xbow on a naga" my answer is no.

[dynast]

Please don't assume I don't know how to use plate armour with Naga. I am saying that your mention of constriction

That was a pokemon joke(jesus, none of my jokes are landing today).

[dynast]

What are you going to do when you are pursued by a pack of gnolls with distortion weapon or a couple of ogres? Fight with low AC/EV and hope nothing bad happens? Isn't haste the only GUARANTEED way to avoid death in such situation?

You should know gnolls and ogres have extremely low detection, those are extreme cases where half of the other species would have died to a jackal pack that a naga would have survived.

edit: from what i remember, during my streak i had many encounters with d:3 ogres where i had the upper hand to reposition and letally poison them before they reached me, while the ones who did would need 3 hits to kill me. I had much more closer calls with player ghosts and grinder. Not even sigmund was a threat until hubris kicked in and he put me down. Centaurs were also not a threat.

[VeryAngryFelid]

My argument would be that special package for apples does not payback and then you would have to show me how the apples sales go due to special packaging. No matter.

I wasn't talking about sales. Have you tried just stacking apples in big packs and drive them somewhere on bad road? They get hit during transportation and they start rotting really fast. The same happens to Nagas, without Haste they lose HP and die.

I build my nagas around being durable. My last run with shoals made me realise you cant do a shield-less naga as viable and i wont be doing them anymore, i was just messing around on another hunter run but if you ask me "should i go bow/xbow on a naga" my answer is no.

Well, 2 of my 4 online Na wins didn't have a shield so I am not sure if it counts as non-viable.

[VeryAngryFelid]

I had much more closer calls with player ghosts.

So you had issues with normal speed enemy and still insist on saying that Nagas don't need haste? I hate player ghosts and I hate them with double passion when I am Naga, they can be deadly and you have no way to run away. Even scroll of blinking does not help in some situations so it is either random teleport or haste. Haste is a guaranteed way to survive, teleport is not. Case closed.

[dynast]

I wasn't talking about sales. Have you tried just stacking apples in big packs and drive them somewhere on bad road? They get hit during transportation and they start rotting really fast. The same happens to Nagas, without Haste they lose HP and die.

Then my argument would be that if you dont put any of the fruits into special packages the apples would be the least damaged ones.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Then my argument would be that if you dont put any of the fruits into special packages the apples would be the least damaged ones.

And then I said "I tried transporting apples without special packages and they rotted away" and you said "that's because they are apples, try bananas which are eaten more often".

You still didn't reply what is your strategy for NaEn to guarantee win without haste. And no, winning NaEn is not an argument since you can be lucky. I am more interested in simple question "Is it possible/common to get into situation when only haste can save your Naga?" and I believe the answer is yes.
Though the whole discussion is really strange, it's common knowledge that it is easier to die with Chei than without Chei and we have an equivalent of that (Naga is equivalent of "with Chei", hasted Naga is "without Chei")